|
Obamas war without congress approval
By Blazed1979 2014-09-15 14:53:46
I'm amused by some holding religions to account for the actions of individuals or groups of individuals. I've said this before, that's like holding science to account for nutty professors wild experiments and lack of sound practice.
It sure is trendy to be anti-religion today.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 14:58:26
Most atheists don't think about complex morality in terms of right and wrong and I rarely see them claim the moral high ground the way religious people do. They aren't a collective with a common theme, they're just people who don't have a particular opinion about the intangible.
Well, agree with you until the last part; obviously you have an opinion, as you're an atheist; not an uncaring agnostic.
I care more about being labeled or grouped with people than I care about the questions. In my daily life I give zero shits about existential unknowns. I speak about atheists in terms of they because I don't consider myself atheist or agnostic, I'm a-religious.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:02:22
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway.
[+]
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 15:03:37
Most atheists don't think about complex morality in terms of right and wrong and I rarely see them claim the moral high ground the way religious people do. They aren't a collective with a common theme, they're just people who don't have a particular opinion about the intangible.
Well, agree with you until the last part; obviously you have an opinion, as you're an atheist; not an uncaring agnostic.
I care more about being labeled or grouped with people than I care about the questions. In my daily life I give zero shits about existential unknowns. I speak about atheists in terms of they because I don't consider myself atheist or agnostic, I'm a-religious.
I used to be; in years past I just never gave a damn.
But the older I get the more angry I get over religion being used as a weapon to deny rights or to justify heinous actions. From gay marriage to mistreatment of women to these ISIS scum who really should just be wiped off the planet.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 303
By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-09-15 15:06:04
Most atheists don't think about complex morality in terms of right and wrong and I rarely see them claim the moral high ground the way religious people do. They aren't a collective with a common theme, they're just people who don't have a particular opinion about the intangible.
Well, agree with you until the last part; obviously you have an opinion, as you're an atheist; not an uncaring agnostic.
I care more about being labeled or grouped with people than I care about the questions. In my daily life I give zero shits about existential unknowns. I speak about atheists in terms of they because I don't consider myself atheist or agnostic, I'm a-religious.
I used to be; in years past I just never gave a damn.
But the older I get the more angry I get over religion being used as a weapon to deny rights or to justify heinous actions. From gay marriage to mistreatment of women to these ISIS scum who really should just be wiped off the planet.
wow, so we agree. I could have said that word for word.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 15:06:50
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway.
It does, but I've actually had a more violent reaction from religious friends and family discussing it from that angle than from that of an atheist.
Try explaining to someone sometime that "maybe aliens planted the human race here" makes more sense than the creation stories of the world's religions and they tend to get really upset.
But, really, when you think about it...isn't that all the notion of god is? Some being greater than us managed to help us get started.
I'm not averse to the idea that there's some higher intelligence out there in the universe.
I just don't buy into the dogma presented in any of the holy books as constituted.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 15:07:07
You can play semantics with me, but whether you call it evil or something else, there are things that even atheists deem "right" or "wrong".
It's more honorable to apply your own reasoning than pick and choose edicts from ancient texts inconsistently. That's the point, they make decisions based on personal views, the religious like to say they follow the word of God, but only follow the parts they like. Even if they arrive at the same conclusion, why does the religious person deserve more or even the same respect on that choice?
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 15:11:09
I'm amused by some holding religions to account for the actions of individuals or groups of individuals. I've said this before, that's like holding science to account for nutty professors wild experiments and lack of sound practice.
It sure is trendy to be anti-religion today.
Oh, yeah. Totally.
I'm totally "anti-religious" because it gets me girls and makes me popular on the internet.
Though it does remind me of this:
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:13:20
You can play semantics with me, but whether you call it evil or something else, there are things that even atheists deem "right" or "wrong".
It's more honorable to apply your own reasoning than pick and choose edicts from ancient texts inconsistently. That's the point, they make decisions based on personal views, the religious like to say they follow the word of God, but only follow the parts they like. Even if they arrive at the same conclusion, why does the religious person deserve more or even the same respect on that choice?
You say it's more honorable to apply your own reasoning, but some truly horrible people have done just that with disastrous results. Respect is relative, though. I don't apply respect to people based on their religious views so much as how they act.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 15:14:27
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway. Not at all, people are born as atheists and agnostics, they have no beliefs or knowledge, we instil those beliefs and knowledge into them, or the way I prefer: instil knowledge and let them conclude their own beliefs.
We are all without knowledge (even though there are those who claim that they know) of a higher being, whether somebody believes in a higher being or not though, and whether somebody believes in a religion (which doesn't necessarily mean they believe in a higher entity) are equally nonsensical.
Now if you're trying to say that somebody makes no sense when they try to claim that they know there is no god whatsoever, try to apply gnosticism to something we don't know, well they're *** stupid.
It is an argument of semantics however.
edit: plus have you never heard of secular humanism?
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:16:14
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway. Not at all, people are born as atheists and agnostics, they have no beliefs or knowledge, we instil those beliefs and knowledge into them, or the way I prefer: instil knowledge and let them conclude their own beliefs.
We are all without knowledge (even though there are those who claim that they know) of a higher being, whether somebody believes in a higher being or not though, and whether somebody believes in a religion (which doesn't necessarily mean they believe in a higher entity) are equally nonsensical.
Now if you're trying to say that somebody makes no sense when they try to claim that they know there is no god whatsoever, try to apply gnosticism to something we don't know, well they're *** stupid.
It is an argument of semantics however.
Well, yeah, it's an argument of semantics because we don't agree on the definition of atheism anyway. We're not born atheists by my definition, because we don't come out screaming "THERE'S NO GOD!". We just come out screaming because we have no clue what's going on.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 15:17:11
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway. Not at all, people are born as atheists and agnostics, they have no beliefs or knowledge, we instil those beliefs and knowledge into them, or the way I prefer: instil knowledge and let them conclude their own beliefs.
We are all without knowledge (even though there are those who claim that they know) of a higher being, whether somebody believes in a higher being or not though, and whether somebody believes in a religion (which doesn't necessarily mean they believe in a higher entity) are equally nonsensical.
Now if you're trying to say that somebody makes no sense when they try to claim that they know there is no god whatsoever, try to apply gnosticism to something we don't know, well they're *** stupid.
It is an argument of semantics however.
Well, yeah, it's an argument of semantics because we don't agree on the definition of atheism anyway. We're not born atheists by my definition, because we don't come out screaming "THERE'S NO GOD!". We just come out screaming because we have no clue what's going on.
Clearly we come out screaming because there is no god.
If there was a just and loving god, our first action in the world would not be one of aural assault on all around us.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 15:17:13
The religious certainly have their share of problems, but a lot of good is done in the name of religion that is ignored because people like to focus on the psychopaths. When atheists prove themselves to be the moral superiors of the world by their actions instead of their armchair philosophies, we can talk. As of now we have the same mixture of atheists that use it to do good as well as evil, just like the religious. You can't use a non-belief in something to do right or wrong, that's such a ludicrous statement.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 15:19:31
Being a-religious makes more sense than being atheistic anyway. Not at all, people are born as atheists and agnostics, they have no beliefs or knowledge, we instil those beliefs and knowledge into them, or the way I prefer: instil knowledge and let them conclude their own beliefs.
We are all without knowledge (even though there are those who claim that they know) of a higher being, whether somebody believes in a higher being or not though, and whether somebody believes in a religion (which doesn't necessarily mean they believe in a higher entity) are equally nonsensical.
Now if you're trying to say that somebody makes no sense when they try to claim that they know there is no god whatsoever, try to apply gnosticism to something we don't know, well they're *** stupid.
It is an argument of semantics however.
Well, yeah, it's an argument of semantics because we don't agree on the definition of atheism anyway. We're not born atheists by my definition, because we don't come out screaming "THERE'S NO GOD!". We just come out screaming because we have no clue what's going on. Then your definition is wrong, just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right.
Very few people go around screaming that there is no god, and they're just as delusional as the religious people. But I don't expect any religious person to admit to that as then they'd be citing a fault with themselves instead of just attacking a minority group, which as history has proven: they just love to do.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:21:15
Clearly we come out screaming because there is no god.
If there was a just and loving god, our first action in the world would not be one of aural assault on all around us.
Lol. You could say that about anything in life we go through, but most people have already taken all of that into account.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 15:23:36
Clearly we come out screaming because there is no god.
If there was a just and loving god, our first action in the world would not be one of aural assault on all around us.
Lol. You could say that about anything in life we go through, but most people have already taken all of that into account.
Just an attempt at levity. =\
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:26:50
Clearly we come out screaming because there is no god.
If there was a just and loving god, our first action in the world would not be one of aural assault on all around us.
Lol. You could say that about anything in life we go through, but most people have already taken all of that into account.
Just an attempt at levity. =\
My bad. I did find it funny though, so there you go.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 15:28:08
You can play semantics with me, but whether you call it evil or something else, there are things that even atheists deem "right" or "wrong".
It's more honorable to apply your own reasoning than pick and choose edicts from ancient texts inconsistently. That's the point, they make decisions based on personal views, the religious like to say they follow the word of God, but only follow the parts they like. Even if they arrive at the same conclusion, why does the religious person deserve more or even the same respect on that choice?
You say it's more honorable to apply your own reasoning, but some truly horrible people have done just that with disastrous results. Respect is relative, though. I don't apply respect to people based on their religious views so much as how they act.
I say it's more honorable simply because you have arrived at a conclusion through your own reasoning. The major gripe I have with religiosity is that it's used inconsistently. It makes it impossible for me to believe they are sincere in their beliefs and not just using it as a more socially acceptable podium to throw hateful language at people they don't like.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 15:31:06
Basically: doing good things because it's the right thing to do > doing good things because fear of punishment or promise of reward.
But that would require us to quantify at least to an extent what is "good" and "better" etc.
But hey.
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:31:41
You can play semantics with me, but whether you call it evil or something else, there are things that even atheists deem "right" or "wrong".
It's more honorable to apply your own reasoning than pick and choose edicts from ancient texts inconsistently. That's the point, they make decisions based on personal views, the religious like to say they follow the word of God, but only follow the parts they like. Even if they arrive at the same conclusion, why does the religious person deserve more or even the same respect on that choice?
You say it's more honorable to apply your own reasoning, but some truly horrible people have done just that with disastrous results. Respect is relative, though. I don't apply respect to people based on their religious views so much as how they act.
I say it's more honorable simply because you have arrived at a conclusion through your own reasoning. The major gripe I have with religiosity is that it's used inconsistently. It makes it impossible for me to believe they are sincere in their beliefs and not just using it as a more socially acceptable podium to throw hateful language at people they don't like.
I agree with you in some ways. There are religions out there that don't demand you take their word for it and encourage free thought, but I'll admit they're probably rare.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 15:33:05
Basically: doing good things because it's the right thing to do > doing good things because fear of punishment or promise of reward.
For once you say something about the topic that I agree with 100%.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-15 15:59:36
You can play semantics with me, but whether you call it evil or something else, there are things that even atheists deem "right" or "wrong".
It's more honorable to apply your own reasoning than pick and choose edicts from ancient texts inconsistently. That's the point, they make decisions based on personal views, the religious like to say they follow the word of God, but only follow the parts they like. Even if they arrive at the same conclusion, why does the religious person deserve more or even the same respect on that choice?
You say it's more honorable to apply your own reasoning, but some truly horrible people have done just that with disastrous results. Respect is relative, though. I don't apply respect to people based on their religious views so much as how they act.
I say it's more honorable simply because you have arrived at a conclusion through your own reasoning. The major gripe I have with religiosity is that it's used inconsistently. It makes it impossible for me to believe they are sincere in their beliefs and not just using it as a more socially acceptable podium to throw hateful language at people they don't like.
It's a crutch for people who don't want to think for themselves. I have so much more respect for those theologists who actually put some TLC into their thoughts even I don't buy their broad assertions or feel they're inserting God into what essentially ends up looking like an deist point of view. If God created the universe then bailed does it even matter if God created it? From the human perspective? People want to know about their place.
Many of the Christian theologists I've read seem so distant from the Bible partly because of the inconsistency and intolerance that what they end up doing are philosophical exercises in morality using Jesus as an allegory for whatever point they're trying to come across.
Even dudes like Joel Olsteen are basically like yeah man, God is great, live your life, be empowered et al but lets not go into too much detail about what the text says because that stuffs scary and bad for business.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-15 16:06:41
In a sick *** way I have to respect the fundamentalist for literally doing what the ultimate guide to life says to do if for no other reason than to show others how corrupt, fetid and toxic the foundations of these religions really are.
Nothing is exempt from change. Religions have changed with the times as everything in the universe has. The problem of course being when you refuse to change and start cribbing morality from the Middle Ages. I don't think most Atheists give a ***if you're a Unitarian Universalist or a Quaker or any of the other benign forms of Christianity.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 16:11:52
Maybe, but it's not like modern-day morality is any better.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-15 16:13:16
Maybe, but it's not like modern-day morality is any better.
How so? Are you really going to argue Middle Age morality was in some fashion better than what we have today as imperfect as it is?
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 16:16:50
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Maybe, but it's not like modern-day morality is any better.
How so? Are you really going to argue Middle Age morality was in some fashion better than what we have today as imperfect as it is?
No, I'm not saying it was all better. Just different. Better in some ways, worse in others.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-15 16:21:46
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Maybe, but it's not like modern-day morality is any better.
How so? Are you really going to argue Middle Age morality was in some fashion better than what we have today as imperfect as it is?
No, I'm not saying it was all better. Just different. Better in some ways, worse in others.
So basically humanity in a nutshell. A dynamic exercise in trying to make the world a 'better' place while breaking every piece of china in the process.
The problem of course being that fundamentalist religion is static and thus sees itself as superior no matter what the time. There is no room or need for change when the apocalypse is ever nigh.
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-15 18:22:01
How is it even possible to do evil with atheism? The following atheists were good at it:
Napoleon Bonaparte
Kim Jong-il
Jeffrey Dahmer
Jim Jones
Benito Mussolini
And of course everyone's favorite atheist, Joseph Stalin.
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-15 18:24:15
Atheism =/= Personality Cults.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-15 18:31:48
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Atheism =/= Personality Cults. Using atheism as part of your cult is still using atheism to do evil.
Especially when you target anyone who practices any religion.
Quote: Can Obama wage war without consent of Congress?
WASHINGTON (AP) — On the cusp of intensified airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, President Barack Obama is using the legal grounding of the congressional authorizations President George W. Bush relied on more than a decade ago to go to war. But Obama has made no effort to ask Congress to explicitly authorize his own conflict.
The White House said again Friday that Bush-era congressional authorizations for the war on al-Qaida and the Iraq invasion give Obama authority to act without new approval by Congress under the 1973 War Powers Act. That law, passed during the Vietnam War, serves as a constitutional check on presidential power to declare war without congressional consent. It requires presidents to notify Congress within 48 hours of military action and limits the use of military forces to no more than 60 days unless Congress authorizes force or declares war.
"It is the view of this administration and the president's national security team specifically that additional authorization from Congress is not required, that he has the authority that he needs to order the military actions," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said. He said there were no plans to seek consent from Congress. "At this point we have not, and I don't know of any plan to do so at this point," he said.
The administration's tightly crafted legal strategy has short-circuited the congressional oversight that Obama once championed. The White House's use of post-9/11 congressional force authorizations for the broadening air war has generated a chorus of criticism that the justifications are, at best, a legal stretch.
"Committing American lives to war is such a serious question, it should not be left to one person to decide, even if it's the president," said former Illinois Rep. Paul Findley, 92, who helped write the War Powers Act.
As a U.S. senator from Illinois running for president in 2007, Obama tried to prevent Bush's administration from taking any military action against Iran unless it was explicitly authorized by Congress. A Senate resolution Obama sponsored died in committee.
Nearly seven years later, U.S. fighter jets and unmanned drones armed with missiles have flown 150 airstrikes against the Islamic State group over the past five weeks in Iraq under Obama's orders — even though he has yet to formally ask Congress to authorize the expanding war. Obama told the nation Wednesday he would unleash U.S. strikes inside Syria for the first time, along with intensified bombing in Iraq, as part of "a steady, relentless effort" to root out Islamic State extremists. Obama has not said how long the air campaign will last.
The White House has cited the 2001 military authorization Congress gave Bush to attack any countries, groups or people who planned, authorized, committed or aided the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Earnest on Thursday described the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force, generally known as the AUMF, as one that Obama "believes continues to apply to this terrorist organization that is operating in Iraq and Syria."
The Islamic State group, which was founded in 2004, has not been linked to the 9/11 attacks, although its founders later pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden. In February, al-Qaida declared that the Islamic State group was no longer formally part of the terror organization. And in recent weeks, senior U.S. officials, including Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Matthew Olsen, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, have drawn significant distinctions between al-Qaida and the Islamic State group.
Earnest said Thursday that Obama welcomes support from Congress but that it isn't necessary. "The president has the authority, the statutory authority that he needs," Earnest said.
Others disagreed.
"I actually think the 2001 AUMF argument is pretty tortured," said Rep. Jim Himes, D-Conn., who serves on the House Intelligence Committee. "They are essentially saying that ISIL is associated with al-Qaida, and that's not obvious," Himes said, using an alternate acronym for the Islamic State group. "Stretching it like this has dangerous implications."
Himes supports a new congressional vote for a specific IS group authorization, as does another Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Rep. Adam Schiff of California.
There is wariness even from some former Bush administration officials. Jack Goldsmith, head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel under Bush, said in the Lawfare blog that "it seems a stretch" to connect the Islamic State group to al-Qaida, considering recent rivalry between the two groups.
The White House also finds authorization under the 2002 resolution that approved the invasion of Iraq to identify and destroy weapons of mass destruction. That resolution also cited the threat from al-Qaida, which Congress said then was operating inside Iraq. But the U.S. later concluded there were no ties between al-Qaida and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein or his government, and the group formally known as al-Qaida in Iraq — which later evolved into the Islamic State group — didn't form until 2004, after the U.S.-led invasion.
Obama is using both authorizations as authority to act even though he publicly sought their repeal last year. In a key national security address at the National Defense University in May 2013, Obama said he wanted to scrap the 2001 order because "we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight." Two months later, Obama's national security adviser, Susan Rice, asked House Speaker John Boehner to consider repealing the 2002 Iraq resolution, calling the document "outdated."
Obama has asked only for congressional backing to pay for the buildup of American advisers and equipment to aid Syrian opposition forces. House Republicans spurned a vote on that separate request earlier this week, but Boehner is now siding with the administration. The White House acknowledged it could not overtly train Syrian rebels without Congress approving the cost of about $500 million.
Since U.S. military advisers went into Iraq in June, the administration has maneuvered repeatedly to avoid coming into conflict with the War Powers provision that imposes a 60-day time limit on unapproved military action. Seven times, before each 60-day limit has expired, Obama has sent new notification letters to Congress restarting the clock and providing new extensions without invoking congressional approval. The most recent four notifications have covered the airstrikes against the Islamic State group that began Aug. 8.
An international law expert at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, Peter J. Spiro, described the letters as workarounds that amount to "killing the War Powers Act with 1,000 tiny cuts."
Former Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., who now heads the Lugar Center for foreign affairs in Washington, said Obama could ask for congressional approval in a way that would be less formal than a specific war resolution — perhaps either as an appropriations request or a simple resolution.
"It may not be the most satisfactory way to declare war," Lugar said. "But it may be a pragmatic compromise for the moment."
Source
|
|