Ebola Patient Coming To U.S.

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Ebola Patient Coming to U.S.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-01 14:35:17
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Auto abort shouldn't be the answer ever.

I bet people who were deaf in the time of Beethoven lived a poorer quality of life than people with genetic disorders are capable of living today.

Some genetic disorders reduce human life expectancy significantly. I'm talking to about less than 20 years...

Additionally, even with today's medicine those <20 years are hardly what I would consider quality of life.
Because no life is better than <20? Wha???

Edit: You have 6 months to live! Pull the plug now doc... 6 months just isn't adding to my quality of life!

Besides... what if they were to find a cure for the genetic disorder 10 years in then being able to then provide for a full and healthy life?

I've always wondered if finding out about birth defects led to the abortion of children for their sake or for their parents sake?
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-08-01 14:37:11
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »

"Not my business" has nothing to do with approving of something, just recognizing that I am not entitled to force people to do what to do.
So stop getting on your high horse about birth control, abortions, and immigration.
It isn't your business.

Do you even read?
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-08-01 14:40:13
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.


You and Nausi both seem to have no problem passing judgement on women's health choices when:

1) you didn't know what birth control was until a coulpe of months ago (hormone thearpy)

2) Nausi didn't know how birth control affected a woman's uterus until 2 weeks ago

You both learned this on a gaming website.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-01 14:41:27
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.
Prove it.
Sure.

Would you like another?

second source said:
The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-01 14:43:44
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.


You and Nausi both seem to have no problem passing judgement on women's health choices when:

1) you didn't know what birth control was until a coulpe of months ago (hormone thearpy)

2) Nausi didn't know how birth control affected a woman's uterus until 2 weeks ago

You both learned this on a gaming website.
Actually, I knew that birth control was used in hormone therapy prior to Zah pointing it out. Our communication error was on other issues, like should birth control be issued for free or not.
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By Jetackuu 2014-08-01 14:43:50
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Knowing you're incapable of caring for a child, or putting other family members first =/= not wanting to take care of it but realizing you're unable to. It's a logical deduction.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-01 14:43:51
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Auto abort shouldn't be the answer ever.

I bet people who were deaf in the time of Beethoven lived a poorer quality of life than people with genetic disorders are capable of living today.

Some genetic disorders reduce human life expectancy significantly. I'm talking to about less than 20 years...

Additionally, even with today's medicine those <20 years are hardly what I would consider quality of life.
It's stunning to me that people here think that if life expectancy is <20 years, then there wouldn't be anything worth living for.

Like my jaw is on the floor

EDIT: Christ I'm reduced to [+]-ing Flavins posts on this.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:45:06
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While I don't feel abortion should be a primary method of birth control -- it's not exactly non-invasive, easy, or cheap (relative to other methods) -- keeping it as a last-line-of-defense birth control is just fine with me.

Quote:
Besides... what if they were to find a cure for the genetic disorder 10 years in then being able to then provide for a full and healthy life?

You're not going to cure Downs Syndrome. Genetics does not work this way.

Quote:
I've always wondered if finding out about birth defects led to the abortion of children for their sake or for their parents sake?

Does it matter? And can't it be both?
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-08-01 14:45:06
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.
Prove it.
Sure.

Would you like another?

second source said:
The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

Really?
Quote:
• About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[

I don't see got knocked up at prom as an answer
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 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:46:46
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Auto abort shouldn't be the answer ever.

I bet people who were deaf in the time of Beethoven lived a poorer quality of life than people with genetic disorders are capable of living today.

Some genetic disorders reduce human life expectancy significantly. I'm talking to about less than 20 years...

Additionally, even with today's medicine those <20 years are hardly what I would consider quality of life.
It's stunning to me that people here think that if life expectancy is <20 years, then there wouldn't be anything worth living for.

Like my jaw is on the floor

Even if I wanted a child, and you told me my child would have a genetic birth defect, their entire life would be a struggle and they'd die by 20, I would respect my wife's decision to have an abortion if she so chose, and would encourage at that.

That's nothing but 20 years of suffering for three people.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-01 14:47:08
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Because no life is better than <20? Wha???

Edit: You have 6 months to live! Pull the plug now doc... 6 months just isn't adding to my quality of life!
You're equating length of life to quality of life. This is something the medical community has really tried to get across, particularly to American families with the "death panel" mentality.

Living an extra few years while suffering pain due to a disease or developmental disorder is not quality-of-life. Ask the patient yourself.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
I've always wondered if finding out about birth defects led to the abortion of children for their sake or for their parents sake?
Again it comes back to "quality of life." That's the big phrase that physician's are constantly asking themselves when treating patients. Is this going to improve their quality of life or simply extend their life for a few days.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-01 14:47:53
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Jetackuu said: »
Knowing you're incapable of caring for a child, or putting other family members first =/= not wanting to take care of it but realizing you're unable to. It's a logical deduction.
wait, what?

"incapable of caring for a child, or putting other family members first"

How about not getting pregnant in the first place? You know, keep your skirt/pants on? If you want to have sex, then deal with the kids afterwards...

"not wanting to take care of it (nice for you to consider children as objects btw), but realizing you're unable to."

How about having the kid put up for adoption? Or would you rather kill the kid for your own mistake?

Either option is better than killing the kid for your own mistake...
 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-01 14:48:53
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.
Prove it.
Sure.

Would you like another?

second source said:
The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
That doesn't describe the scenario you listed.
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
It's stunning to me that people here think that if life expectancy is <20 years, then there wouldn't be anything worth living for.

Like my jaw is on the floor
I think he meant <20 years while suffering from a potentially debilitating genetic illness.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:49:21
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Knowing you're incapable of caring for a child, or putting other family members first =/= not wanting to take care of it but realizing you're unable to. It's a logical deduction.
wait, what?

"incapable of caring for a child, or putting other family members first"

How about not getting pregnant in the first place? You know, keep your skirt/pants on? If you want to have sex, then deal with the kids afterwards...

"not wanting to take care of it (nice for you to consider children as objects btw), but realizing you're unable to."

How about having the kid put up for adoption? Or would you rather kill the kid for your own mistake?

Either option is better than killing the kid for your own mistake...

You're not killing a child. You're aborting a fetus.

You're not taking a three-year-old HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE child behind the woodshed and hitting him with a shovel, ffs.

Edit: And until birth, the fetus is an "it". Hell, until birth, it's a parasite.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-01 14:49:33
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
That's nothing but 20 years of suffering for three people.
I was about to say this. Asking parents to endure the visual/emotional suffering of their child on a day-to-day basis is a lot to ask.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-01 14:49:35
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It's almost like choosing to raise a disabled child is a choice that the parents should have. You know, because grieving your child is going to be born with a crippling defect isn't tough enough.
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By volkom 2014-08-01 14:49:45
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Theres a guy that's a neighbor of one of my coworkers. He knocked up his girlfriend so he could stay and live at her house with her parents. He also had 4 other kids from a previous relationship.
He's only 23.
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-08-01 14:49:50
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But you have to agree with me on this, most abortions being used today are not for probable major birth defects, but because Suzy got knocked up by Bobby at the school prom, and neither wants to take care of the kid.


You and Nausi both seem to have no problem passing judgement on women's health choices when:

1) you didn't know what birth control was until a coulpe of months ago (hormone thearpy)

2) Nausi didn't know how birth control affected a woman's uterus until 2 weeks ago

You both learned this on a gaming website.
Actually, I knew that birth control was used in hormone therapy prior to Zah pointing it out. Our communication error was on other issues, like should birth control be issued for free or not.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Fenrir.Emirii said: »
Guess what solves those problems? Birth control! Hormone therapy is a SUPER COMMON treatment for many many many female reproduction problems, and none of them involve a fetus or baby of any kind.
I'm pretty sure that Hormone therapy is not birth control. There are pills that prevent pregnancy, and there are pills to prevent those types of things you described.

Besides, it makes one wonder how women lived without these pills in the first place. Are we, as a society, trying to grasp at straws so much as to consider unborn children as diseases to justify forcing people who don't want pregnancy coverage into buying it, as mandated by law?
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/42594/the-supremes-tackle-birth-control/13/
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-01 14:51:00
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So are we using unwanted children as organ factories yet?
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:51:11
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volkom said: »
Theres a guy that's a neighbor of one of my coworkers. He knocked up his girlfriend so he could stay and live at her house with her parents. He also had 4 other kids from a previous relationship.
He's only 23.

"Not your business".
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:51:46
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
So are we using unwanted children as organ factories yet?

Strictly speaking, if we'd get cracking on stem cell research, sort of?
 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-01 14:52:39
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
So are we using unwanted children as organ factories yet?
Their organs are too small. I'd burn through that baby liver in like a week.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-01 14:53:04
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I thought that inmates were our unwilling donors.

"Time to repay your debt to society..." *chainsaw revs*
*screaming intensifies*
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-08-01 14:53:20
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Auto abort shouldn't be the answer ever.

I bet people who were deaf in the time of Beethoven lived a poorer quality of life than people with genetic disorders are capable of living today.

Some genetic disorders reduce human life expectancy significantly. I'm talking to about less than 20 years...

Additionally, even with today's medicine those <20 years are hardly what I would consider quality of life.
And?

I'm not actually sure which side you're taking on this, but saying, "Well, if someone is going to live a happy but short life, we may as well put a gun to their head once they exit the womb," is a very weak argument ethically. More to the point, it is patently illegal in the United States thanks to God-Emperor Reagan (well, he was the PotUS who signed it into law, anyhow).

I actually got into a discussion about this with my father, who is a physician. It seemed to me that sparing someone a lifespan of 15 yeas mired with medical problems and frequent pain (specifically thinking of progeria right now, but we could list several dozen other conditions) made sense. My father pointed out that if all someone knows is pain, it isn't as traumatizing for them as for us "normal" folk who only experience pain intermittently. Moreover, kids with life-threatening problems or severe mental retardation are both capable of happiness and of sharing that happiness.

Is it hard for a parent to take care of a Downs kid until the day they die (or move into an adult shared-living facility)? Sure. But all the parents of Downs kids that I've met love their kids even if they're utterly dependent.

I once dated a guy with cerebral palsy. He wasn't especially bright (which was a big part of why we didn't click), but he was a nice guy with a considerable physical handicap. On our first date, he walked 3 miles to meet me rather than ask me to come pick him up in my car, so he perseveres in spite of his handicap. Is it even remotely respectful to talk about flushing him down a toilet?

For that matter, I appear relatively normal but I have a small list of congenital problems that make my life difficult. I have several congenital advantages that help to balance them out, but my personal index says that I'm in the red on this scale. Hell, being gay statistically shortens my lifespan by something like 20 years. May as well just off me the minute I came out of the closet, then, so as to spare me the pain of dying aged 60 instead of age 80.

The tyranny of normal is so wonderful. It is exactly the same mentality that makes people want to let caregivers working in Africa die painfully lest a virus (which could easily enter the country by so many other vectors -- my city is full of African refugees, albeit from the wrong coast of the continent) possibly touch US soil. I'll bet the majority of shitstains complaining about these patients coming into Atlanta also refuse to vaccinate their crotch-spawn. Hypocrisy is commoner than muck in such circumstances, after all.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-01 14:53:40
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Well that was easy.

Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
So are we using unwanted children as organ factories yet?
Their organs are too small. I'd burn through that baby liver in like a week.
You have to give time for the organs to grow first.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 14:53:43
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I thought that inmates were our unwilling donors.

"Time to repay your debt to society..." *chainsaw revs*
*screaming intensifies*

I really don't want my new liver to come pre-installed with Hepatitis.

You thought Windows 8 was bad.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-01 14:53:55
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
volkom said: »
Theres a guy that's a neighbor of one of my coworkers. He knocked up his girlfriend so he could stay and live at her house with her parents. He also had 4 other kids from a previous relationship.
He's only 23.

"Not your business".

It's not your business. What makes it his business?
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-08-01 14:56:39
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
So are we using unwanted children as organ factories yet?
We've been doing that for years. Fetal stem cells are only one aspect of it. Circumcized infant prepuces are regularly used by certain industries. That's not even getting into the black market whereby the hideously impoverished try to live a few more years by selling off a kidney instead of starving.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-01 15:00:47
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Auto abort shouldn't be the answer ever.

I bet people who were deaf in the time of Beethoven lived a poorer quality of life than people with genetic disorders are capable of living today.

Some genetic disorders reduce human life expectancy significantly. I'm talking to about less than 20 years...

Additionally, even with today's medicine those <20 years are hardly what I would consider quality of life.
It's stunning to me that people here think that if life expectancy is <20 years, then there wouldn't be anything worth living for.

Like my jaw is on the floor

EDIT: Christ I'm reduced to [+]-ing Flavins posts on this.

Ok lets use Progeria as an example. Typical life expectancy 13 years.

Now on one hand we have a girl like Adalia Rose, pictured below below, who I would argue had a pretty damn good quality of life. Her life with progeria was well documented because of social media


On the other hand the condition can manifest the following conditions:
Quote:
Children with progeria usually develop the first symptoms during their first few months of life. The earliest symptoms may include a failure to thrive and a localized scleroderma-like skin condition. As a child ages past infancy, additional conditions become apparent usually around 18–24 months. Limited growth, full-body alopecia (hair loss), and a distinctive appearance (a small face with a shallow recessed jaw, and a pinched nose) are all characteristics of progeria. Signs and symptoms of this progressive disease tend to become more marked as the child ages. Later, the condition causes wrinkled skin, atherosclerosis, kidney failure, loss of eyesight, and cardiovascular problems. Scleroderma, a hardening and tightening of the skin on trunk and extremities of the body, is prevalent. People diagnosed with this disorder usually have small, fragile bodies, like those of elderly people. The face is usually wrinkled, with a larger head in relation to the body, a narrow face and a beak nose. Prominent scalp veins are noticeable (made more obvious by alopecia), as well as prominent eyes. Musculoskeletal degeneration causes loss of body fat and muscle, stiff joints, hip dislocations, and other symptoms generally absent in the non-elderly population. Individuals usually retain normal mental and motor development.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-01 15:00:58
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Frankly this entire discussion of abortion on this level is ridiculous, as on a larger scale it should be an option if you want it to be. Period.

Congenital birth defects or not.

It's up to the parents* -- specifically, the mother, but the father should have some input if he's around -- if she wishes to carry a fetus to term.

*Not the church, not the government, not idiot protestors, not their immediate family, coworkers, friends, or relations.
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