George Takei Vs Hobby Lobby

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George Takei vs Hobby Lobby
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By Fumiku 2014-07-08 04:23:41
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
t until recently that there was a health care mandate, so you only worked for your health care if they offered it in the first place. Also, the company was more able to freely choose which health care package they offered, giving them more control over what was in it. None of this would be an issue if it weren't


And it isn't giving them much power, since the mandate covers it in the event the employer doesn't.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 06:25:18
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Garuda.Chanti said: »
You work for a total compensation package. You don't just work for wages, overtime, vacation, you work for your health care too. The obligation comes from the compensation package they offered when they hired you.

Yes, but the compensation package varies from company to company. It wasn't until recently that there was a health care mandate, so you only worked for your health care if they offered it in the first place. Also, the company was more able to freely choose which health care package they offered, giving them more control over what was in it. None of this would be an issue if it weren't for Obamacare. Heck, all that's really happening with this ruling is giving back a tiny portion of power that was taken away from the companies in the first place.

Oh no, companies lost a little bit of the iron grip they had over their employees' lives. That's just terrible for freedom.

Fumiku said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
t until recently that there was a health care mandate, so you only worked for your health care if they offered it in the first place. Also, the company was more able to freely choose which health care package they offered, giving them more control over what was in it. None of this would be an issue if it weren't


And it isn't giving them much power, since the mandate covers it in the event the employer doesn't.

Much like Walmart paying ***wages thus requiring employees to need food stamps, it's a matter of greed and making it "someone else's problem". Because this was never about their flimsy religious excuse.

They want to save as much money as possible and make the government foot the bill whilst decrying the government spending money on these things in the first place. They found a way (religion) to test the waters of what they can get away with. No one should be surprised. Religion has been used in this fashion for literally as long as man's pretended there's a cosmic being(s) controlling our lives.

It's funny. You hear "personal responsibility" a lot from these "conservatives". Yet once corporations are given "personhood", they don't really want that personal responsibility.
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By Carbuncle.Sasaraixx 2014-07-08 07:36:19
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wormfeeder said: »
oh did I mention birth control is a personal responsibility and not a right, except that you have the right use or not use it.


The Supreme Court says otherwise. Griswold v. Connecticut. Check it out.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 07:42:04
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Carbuncle.Sasaraixx said: »
wormfeeder said: »
oh did I mention birth control is a personal responsibility and not a right, except that you have the right use or not use it.
The Supreme Court says otherwise. Griswold v. Connecticut. Check it out.

Didn't you hear? This is America. You have a responsibility to make babies. And if you're a woman, society demands you be its brood mare, otherwise they will treat you like a pariah.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 08:04:37
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.

Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees.

I really don't know where it comes from...
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 08:17:14
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...

No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages.

Their beliefs don't come into play.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-08 08:31:27
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.

Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees.

I really don't know where it comes from...

So worried about the rights of a company but care so little for the rights of an individual... does it stem from some deep inferiority complex that you feel the need to be "better" than your peers on an intangible figurative level? Do you enjoy beating up effigies of kids who picked on you in junior high?
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 08:35:59
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Let's look at this in reverse and see where you come down, Nausi.

If I'm a business owner, as an atheist, and I have Christian employees who go to church and put money in the collection plate, should I be allowed to lower their wages by a comensurate amount of what they would put into the plate because I don't believe that money should be going to a church?

And don't skirt this question by saying "it's not the same".

Because it's exactly the same. It's just physical and social well-being versus spiritual well-being.

Edit: and if you still truly think it isn't the same, then you're saying that someone's physical well-being is trumped by their employer's spiritual well-being, ipso facto you're saying that an unsubstantiated spiritual existence should be given legal precedent over obvious physical and social issues.

Either way, there's nothing good about this decision for the freedom of religion or the health of our society as a whole.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 08:52:07
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...

No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages.

Their beliefs don't come into play.

This whole notion is ridiculous. As the entity providing you something, I get to have input on what it is that I provide.

It is an entirely incorrect comparison to say the benefit I provide (or don't provide) is akin to telling one how they spend their money. If I choose to not provide it, the employee can simply buy it themselves (can't they?). If you were complaining about an employer insisting that your don't ever use birth control, I might be more sympathetic, but you're not.

You sit back in one respect and insist that others cannot tell you what to believe, but insist that other's conform to your beliefs. Like it or not, your employer is a real person. and you don't get to force him/her against their will on how to spend their money.

In all reality you and your kind just want legal protection to treat your employers like second class citizens.
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By Keido 2014-07-08 08:54:23
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Does Hobby Lobby cover Penish pills?
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-08 08:55:48
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Keido said: »
Does Hobby Lobby cover Penish pills?

you'll have to get a job there, & check it out, then report back to us.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:08:51
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...
No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages. Their beliefs don't come into play.
This whole notion is ridiculous. As the entity providing you something, I get to have input on what it is that I provide. It is an entirely incorrect comparison to say the benefit I provide (or don't provide) is akin to telling one how they spend their money. If I choose to not provide it, the employee can simply buy it themselves (can't they?). If you were complaining about an employer insisting that your don't ever use birth control, I might be more sympathetic, but you're not. You sit back in one respect and insist that others cannot tell you what to believe, but insist that other's conform to your beliefs. Like it or not, your employer is a real person. and you don't get to force him/her against their will on how to spend their money. In all reality you and your kind just want legal protection to treat your employers like second class citizens.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So instead you argue for business owners' and corporations' continued rights to treat employees like second class citizens instead. Don't begin trying to refute that. There are decades of evidence of these companies doing just that.

There's just no reasoning with you. Whatever, Nausi. You're not always the most unreasonable person, but in this case you are. I know nothing about your personal situation in regard to what you do for a living, employment, compensation, or any related facts.

But I have to think you're somehow connected to or otherwise benefitting from these greedy ***.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 09:09:51
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Let's look at this in reverse and see where you come down, Nausi.

If I'm a business owner, as an atheist, and I have Christian employees who go to church and put money in the collection plate, should I be allowed to lower their wages by a comensurate amount of what they would put into the plate because I don't believe that money should be going to a church?

And don't skirt this question by saying "it's not the same".

Because it's exactly the same. It's just physical and social well-being versus spiritual well-being.

Edit: and if you still truly think it isn't the same, then you're saying that someone's physical well-being is trumped by their employer's spiritual well-being, ipso facto you're saying that an unsubstantiated spiritual existence should be given legal precedent over obvious physical and social issues.

Either way, there's nothing good about this decision for the freedom of religion or the health of our society as a whole.

It's not entirely the same thing, but I'll humor you, cause they're close enough.

As an employer I absolutely have the right to lower your pay for whatever the *** reason I want to, it's MY money, and it's my right to cancel or alter your pay based on the agreement in which you were hired. If you don't like how I lower your pay, you can quit and find another job. If you really want to give money to a church collection plate you are free to do so, you just can't work for me if you do so.

A person's constitutional right to personal/religious freedom takes precedence over someone else's entitlement to birth control.

It doesn't matter what laws you pass saying otherwise, laws don't trump rights.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-08 09:10:44
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...

No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages.

Their beliefs don't come into play.

This whole notion is ridiculous. As the entity providing you something, I get to have input on what it is that I provide.

It is an entirely incorrect comparison to say the benefit I provide (or don't provide) is akin to telling one how they spend their money. If I choose to not provide it, the employee can simply buy it themselves (can't they?). If you were complaining about an employer insisting that your don't ever use birth control, I might be more sympathetic, but you're not.

You sit back in one respect and insist that others cannot tell you what to believe, but insist that other's conform to your beliefs. Like it or not, your employer is a real person. and you don't get to force him/her against their will on how to spend their money.

In all reality you and your kind just want legal protection to treat your employers like second class citizens.

The point you're missing is that ACA required all companies to provide a standard minimum of care, emergency contraceptives being part of that. Your hypocrisy is astounding. ANY nonuniformity of application of the law has been a soapbox for your to rant about for 2+ years, but this exception is perfectly ok. And what about the government being legally obligated now to provide that coverage to Hobby Lobby's employees? Does it not get your jimmies rustled to think of having even MORE people on the teet?

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
It doesn't matter what laws you pass saying otherwise, laws don't trump rights.

Also want to address this little gem, because the "rights" you're talking about don't actually exist. You have the right to free practice of religion in private, that means that the government can't persecute you based on your religion and you can practice your religion in the privacy of your home and place of worship without bias. That's a very very different thing than this perceived right of business owners to cite religion as an excuse to skirt laws.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:13:46
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...
No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages. Their beliefs don't come into play.
This whole notion is ridiculous. As the entity providing you something, I get to have input on what it is that I provide. It is an entirely incorrect comparison to say the benefit I provide (or don't provide) is akin to telling one how they spend their money. If I choose to not provide it, the employee can simply buy it themselves (can't they?). If you were complaining about an employer insisting that your don't ever use birth control, I might be more sympathetic, but you're not. You sit back in one respect and insist that others cannot tell you what to believe, but insist that other's conform to your beliefs. Like it or not, your employer is a real person. and you don't get to force him/her against their will on how to spend their money. In all reality you and your kind just want legal protection to treat your employers like second class citizens.
The point you're missing is that ACA required all companies to provide a standard minimum of care, emergency contraceptives being part of that. Your hypocrisy is astounding. ANY nonuniformity of application of the law has been a soapbox for your to rant about for 2+ years, but this exception is perfectly ok. And what about the government being legally obligated now to provide that coverage to Hobby Lobby's employees? Does it not get your jimmies rustled to think of having even MORE people on the teet?

Didn't you hear? If you don't want to have babies you just don't have sex. Sex is only for making babies. It says so in the Bible.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:14:26
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
It doesn't matter what laws you pass saying otherwise, laws don't trump rights.

They didn't until now.*


Edit:*they didn't until now in this regard. Laws have been trumping rights in other ways for years centuries.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 09:27:55
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
And if a Muslim accommodation doesn't sit well with me, so what? I don't work for them. Problem solved.
Right! There you go but apparently our peers live in this world where they think employers are obliged to give up their beliefs and live according in full support the lifestyle of their employees. I really don't know where it comes from...
No, we think employers are obliged to provide health insurance and shouldn't have a say how that insurance applies to their employees personal medical treatment, much like they don't get a say in how an employee spends his or her wages. Their beliefs don't come into play.
This whole notion is ridiculous. As the entity providing you something, I get to have input on what it is that I provide. It is an entirely incorrect comparison to say the benefit I provide (or don't provide) is akin to telling one how they spend their money. If I choose to not provide it, the employee can simply buy it themselves (can't they?). If you were complaining about an employer insisting that your don't ever use birth control, I might be more sympathetic, but you're not. You sit back in one respect and insist that others cannot tell you what to believe, but insist that other's conform to your beliefs. Like it or not, your employer is a real person. and you don't get to force him/her against their will on how to spend their money. In all reality you and your kind just want legal protection to treat your employers like second class citizens.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So instead you argue for business owners' and corporations' rights to treat employees like second class citizens instead. Don't begin trying to refute that. There are decades of evidence of these companies doing just that.

There's just no reasoning with you. Whatever, Nausi. You're not always the most unreasonable person, but in this case you are. I know nothing about your personal situation in regard to what you do for a living, employment, compensation, or any related facts.

But I have to think you're somehow connected to or otherwise benefitting from these greedy ***.

Your sense of entitlement is on FULL display. An employer's choice to not pay for your birth control is not equivalent to treating you like a second class citizen. Where do you come up with this stuff? In the end the employer doesn't have the authority to "make you" do anything. (You don't really have the authority to make your employer do anything either but you advocate for the government to do it for you) If you and your employer have differing viewpoints that cannot be reconciled, you can always quit, you are free to do so.

However, governments who pass laws forcing employers to pay for things that violate their personal beliefs IS treating them like second class citizens. One class gets penalized when another class doesn't.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 09:33:37
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
It doesn't matter what laws you pass saying otherwise, laws don't trump rights.

They didn't until now.*


Edit:*they didn't until now in this regard. Laws have been trumping rights in other ways for years centuries.

Again, its just your sense of entitlement. You think the things you are entitled to are not entitlements, but rights.

I am entitled to birth control is not the same as I have a right to birth control.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:39:16
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Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"?

Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-08 09:46:20
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"?

Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.

Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:51:27
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.

Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them.

They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something.

Rights are what you get once you have money.

Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights.

Clear?
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By Keido 2014-07-08 09:53:25
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Siren.Mosin said: »
Keido said: »
Does Hobby Lobby cover Penish pills?

you'll have to get a job there, & check it out, then report back to us.

I am so signing up.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 09:55:45
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.

Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them.

They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something.

Rights are what you get once you have money.

Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights.

Clear?

If you truly think rights are only for those who have money then you haven't the slightest conception of what rights really are.

L-O-L
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 09:56:27
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.
Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them. They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something. Rights are what you get once you have money. Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights. Clear?
If you truly think rights are only for those who have money then you haven't the slightest conception of what rights really are. L-O-L

I'm saying you think rights are only for those with money. Because that's how it comes across when you speak.

Edit:Specifically, you imply that rights are only for those who can afford to hold financial sway over others.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-08 09:58:57
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.

Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them.

They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something.

Rights are what you get once you have money.

Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights.

Clear?

Sarcasm and whatnot aside, this is a pretty sickening commentary about modern Christianity. Jesus was VERY outspoken about the need to support the poor. Jesus didn't say anything about birth control or homosexuality, but he did talk at length about the poor.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 10:01:25
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.
Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them. They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something. Rights are what you get once you have money. Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights. Clear?
Sarcasm and whatnot aside, this is a pretty sickening commentary about modern Christianity. Jesus was VERY outspoken about the need to support the poor. Jesus didn't say anything about birth control or homosexuality, but he did talk at length about the poor.

I don't even buy into Jesus as the zombie child of divine rape and I think most of the things the Bible attributes to him were great ideas. The problem is religion isn't about a moral code in American society.

It's a way to stratify people socially and position and posture yourself favorably. Actually behaving in a way that reflects what your religious doctrine dictates is out of the question; it's about warping it to fit the situation you want it to fit.

Much like the majority of SCOTUS in this decision, they start with the result they want and find ways to rationalize it.
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By Keido 2014-07-08 10:03:56
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Sarcasm and whatnot aside, this is a pretty sickening commentary about modern Christianity. Jesus was VERY outspoken about the need to support the poor. Jesus didn't say anything about birth control or homosexuality, but he did talk at length about the poor.

The bible also says usury is a Sin so anyone with loans its time to forgive them they are against Christianity.

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-08 10:06:30
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Much like the majority of SCOTUS in this decision, they start with the result they want and find ways to rationalize it.

I've always felt that was the biggest folly of people like Scalia, he's very good at rationalizing blatant corporate and religious bias, but boy does he get it wrong most of the time.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-08 10:08:16
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An oldie but goodie.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-08 10:22:47
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how are you defining "rights"? Because if you're just basing it off that *** Ayn Raynd, we can stop talking right now.
Also forgetting that under ACA, people ARE entitled to birth control.
Well, what he's proposing is the same thing he and his have been proposing all along, that the ACA isn't allowed to broaden the scope of "rights" and that the only "rights" are those given by God to devout Christian Capitalists who have a divine directive to make as much money as possible on the backs of those working for them. They'll belittle anything someone tries to tell them is a humanitarian "right" by calling it an "entitlement", because "entitled" is a dirty word to them, even though it literally only means to have a right, title, or claim to something. Rights are what you get once you have money. Entitlements are the things demanded by those with less money working for those with rights. Clear?
If you truly think rights are only for those who have money then you haven't the slightest conception of what rights really are. L-O-L

I'm saying you think rights are only for those with money. Because that's how it comes across when you speak.

Edit:Specifically, you imply that rights are only for those who can afford to hold financial sway over others.

You don't have a RIGHT to have your employer pay for your birth control. Nor does your emplyer have the right to force you to pay for theirs.

Your employer has a the RIGHT to not pay for that if it violates or inhibits the free practice of their religion. You have that right too.
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