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Random Politics & Religion #00
Phoenix.Xantavia
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2015-09-24 03:04:47
In papal news:
Pope Francis's take in US Politics
Quote: With the first words that Pope Francis uttered publicly on American soil, he made it clear Wednesday that he does not intend to sidestep the deeply divisive issues that are roiling this country — and indeed, that he plans to fully employ his voice and influence as the spiritual leader of nearly 80 million Roman Catholics in the U.S.
Amid the pageantry of a welcoming ceremony on the White House lawn, the first pope from the Americas introduced himself as “the son of an immigrant family. I am happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.”
Coming from a Hispanic pontiff, those words were an unmistakable reference to an issue that has come to dominate much of the race for the 2016 Republican nomination, in which front-runner Donald Trump has vowed to deport the estimated 11 million immigrants who are in this country illegally and revoke the constitutional guarantee of citizenship to anyone born here.
The national spotlight will be fixed firmly on the pope for the next week, as throngs of Americans come out to participate in his tour of the United States, which will include an address Thursday to a joint session of Congress. He was invited there by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), who is Catholic. In the audience will be at least three of the 15 Republican contenders for president.
In his brief address at the White House, delivered in English, the pope also congratulated President Obama for "proposing an initiative for reducing air pollution. Accepting the urgency, it seems clear to me also that climate change is a problem which can no longer be left to a future generation."
Obama's views and those of the pope on the issue of climate change fall squarely on the liberal side of the political divide.
At the same time, some of the pope's words on other subjects reinforced arguments that are being made by conservatives.
He noted the efforts of American Catholics toward "building a society which is truly tolerant and inclusive, to safeguarding the rights of individuals and communities, and to rejecting every form of discrimination."
Francis added: "They are likewise concerned that efforts to build a just and wisely ordered society respect their deepest concerns and their right to religious liberty. That freedom remains one of America's most precious possessions."
The pope specifically noted that a priority of the U.S. bishops has been "to be vigilant, precisely as good citizens, to preserve and defend that freedom from everything that would threaten or compromise it."
For many American conservatives, the threat has become more urgent with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage, which is anathema to the teaching of the Catholic church and some other religions. Since the Supreme Court decision, there has been concern that faith-based groups that hold fast to traditional teachings could lose their tax-exempt status, though many church lawyers think they are protected.
Francis noted that he will be attending the World Meeting of Families in Philadelphia, "to celebrate and support the institutions of marriage and the family at this, a critical moment in the history of our civilization." Francis has in the past called the rise of gay equality a “new sin against God.”
You know, I respect the man who is probably the most marked for assassination due to his religion for speaking in public. But his viewpoints in foreign politics is about as meaningful as a US citizen going to Italy and making comments about Italian politics...which is basically what he is doing.
No doubt his words have influence, but still...he shouldn't bother with topics that are unfamiliar to him. Isn't the pope also the head of a sovereign state? That should easily qualify him to comment on politics in other countries. Same thing as Obama or any other world leaders putting in their 2 cents about how another country does their business.
By fonewear 2015-09-24 06:55:06
I've had enough Pope news. He may be your Pope by FFXIAH is my Pope !
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By Jetackuu 2015-09-24 07:49:42
I just don't understand the failure of liberals to understand the idea of people freely entering the marketplace to compete prevents the creation of concentrated power.
Because that's not reality.
By Jetackuu 2015-09-24 07:50:42
The whole "reality" thing tends to get in the way of our understanding. Damn, I should really read to the end of the page...
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 08:48:58
You've contributed nothing to this thread so far but hostility and insults, so you don't get to contribute any more.
900 pages of hostility and insults and you topicban a person for nothing, seems legit. Come now, don't be asking to be the next one...
By Jassik 2015-09-24 08:49:30
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 08:51:41
In papal news:
Pope Francis's take in US Politics
Quote: With the first words that Pope Francis uttered publicly on American soil, he made it clear Wednesday that he does not intend to sidestep the deeply divisive issues that are roiling this country — and indeed, that he plans to fully employ his voice and influence as the spiritual leader of nearly 80 million Roman Catholics in the U.S.
Amid the pageantry of a welcoming ceremony on the White House lawn, the first pope from the Americas introduced himself as “the son of an immigrant family. I am happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.”
Coming from a Hispanic pontiff, those words were an unmistakable reference to an issue that has come to dominate much of the race for the 2016 Republican nomination, in which front-runner Donald Trump has vowed to deport the estimated 11 million immigrants who are in this country illegally and revoke the constitutional guarantee of citizenship to anyone born here.
The national spotlight will be fixed firmly on the pope for the next week, as throngs of Americans come out to participate in his tour of the United States, which will include an address Thursday to a joint session of Congress. He was invited there by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), who is Catholic. In the audience will be at least three of the 15 Republican contenders for president.
In his brief address at the White House, delivered in English, the pope also congratulated President Obama for "proposing an initiative for reducing air pollution. Accepting the urgency, it seems clear to me also that climate change is a problem which can no longer be left to a future generation."
Obama's views and those of the pope on the issue of climate change fall squarely on the liberal side of the political divide.
At the same time, some of the pope's words on other subjects reinforced arguments that are being made by conservatives.
He noted the efforts of American Catholics toward "building a society which is truly tolerant and inclusive, to safeguarding the rights of individuals and communities, and to rejecting every form of discrimination."
Francis added: "They are likewise concerned that efforts to build a just and wisely ordered society respect their deepest concerns and their right to religious liberty. That freedom remains one of America's most precious possessions."
The pope specifically noted that a priority of the U.S. bishops has been "to be vigilant, precisely as good citizens, to preserve and defend that freedom from everything that would threaten or compromise it."
For many American conservatives, the threat has become more urgent with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage, which is anathema to the teaching of the Catholic church and some other religions. Since the Supreme Court decision, there has been concern that faith-based groups that hold fast to traditional teachings could lose their tax-exempt status, though many church lawyers think they are protected.
Francis noted that he will be attending the World Meeting of Families in Philadelphia, "to celebrate and support the institutions of marriage and the family at this, a critical moment in the history of our civilization." Francis has in the past called the rise of gay equality a “new sin against God.”
You know, I respect the man who is probably the most marked for assassination due to his religion for speaking in public. But his viewpoints in foreign politics is about as meaningful as a US citizen going to Italy and making comments about Italian politics...which is basically what he is doing.
No doubt his words have influence, but still...he shouldn't bother with topics that are unfamiliar to him. Isn't the pope also the head of a sovereign state? That should easily qualify him to comment on politics in other countries. Same thing as Obama or any other world leaders putting in their 2 cents about how another country does their business. Depends on if you consider Vatican City as a sovereign state.
It doesn't fit the definition of one, but people will disagree with me out of principle.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 08:53:17
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is. Problem is, those "utopian ideas" don't get rid or deter any of those big sins, they just move them from one group of people to another, most of the time to those who have the same "utopian ideas"
All for the greater good of course.
By Jassik 2015-09-24 08:57:56
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is. Problem is, those "utopian ideas" don't get rid or deter any of those big sins, they just move them from one group of people to another, most of the time to those who have the same "utopian ideas"
All for the greater good of course.
The current system more closely resembles serfdom than utopia. Besides, getting special interest money and religion out of politics isn't a utopian idea, it's one of the principles this country was founded on.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:04:51
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is. Problem is, those "utopian ideas" don't get rid or deter any of those big sins, they just move them from one group of people to another, most of the time to those who have the same "utopian ideas"
All for the greater good of course.
The current system more closely resembles serfdom than utopia. Besides, getting special interest money and religion out of politics isn't a utopian idea, it's one of the principles this country was founded on. If the current system resembles "serfdom," by your opinion, then wouldn't progression also resemble "serfdom" since all it does is take power away from one group of people and give it to another, with absolutely no change in any of those "sins" you proclaim exists?
Also, where in the hell do you get the idea that special interest money is one of the founding principles of this country? And I'm sure you think that all lobbying is bad too, never mind that the really corrupt lobbying efforts are few and far between.
By Jassik 2015-09-24 09:11:50
If the current system resembles "serfdom," by your opinion, then wouldn't progression also resemble "serfdom" since all it does is take power away from one group of people and give it to another, with absolutely no change in any of those "sins" you proclaim exists?
Also, where in the hell do you get the idea that special interest money is one of the founding principles of this country? And I'm sure you think that all lobbying is bad too, never mind that the really corrupt lobbying efforts are few and far between.
Where do you pull this stuff out of? Let rich people be rich, just stop bending over backwards legislatively to appease them. The founding principle is that everyone should have equal representation in government. As it sits, very rich people and large corporations have a much larger influence than almost all the people combined. That's not ok. Lobbying isn't inherently bad, I've been part of organizations that used lobbyists more than once, but our goal wasn't corrupt. Lobbying in it's current form just has way too much influence, again, muting the voices of the public.
If you think influence should be bought, wait until the people doing the buying are overwhelmingly working against your well-being.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-09-24 09:20:50
I just don't understand the failure of liberals to understand the idea of people freely entering the marketplace to compete prevents the creation of concentrated power.
Because that's not reality. Reality isn't capitalism. So stop calling it that.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:23:36
As it sits, very rich people and large corporations have a much larger influence than almost all the people combined. Whatever you say bub.
I'm sure that you haven't heard of this before, but there has been several laws passed in the past few years that are counter to this argument of yours. These are only a few laws that were able to be passed because a certain Senate Majority Leader refused to bring anything to the table unless he agreed with it when the House of Representatives were controlled by Republicans. Note that he is no longer the Speaker because the American people voted more Republicans in the Senate and fired him from that job.
Anyway, here are the laws that were created that are counter to your argument:
Dodd-Frank
ACA
Lily Ledbetter FPA
FERA
Lobbying isn't inherently bad, I've been part of organizations that used lobbyists more than once, but our goal wasn't corrupt. Lobbying in it's current form just has way too much influence, again, muting the voices of the public. So, basically you just said that it's ok if you do it, but it's not ok for anyone else to do it.
Right, got it!
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-09-24 09:27:33
So, basically you just said that it's ok if you do it, but it's not ok for anyone else to do it. He..didn't? He said
Lobbying isn't inherently bad That was the point and the followup was an example he could relate to.
I get it there are people you hate here, but you try too often too hard to change the meaning of what they're saying..
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-09-24 09:28:29
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By Jassik 2015-09-24 09:29:20
I'm sure that you haven't heard of this before, but there has been several laws passed in the past few years that are counter to this argument of yours.
Oh my, a couple laws that are mostly ineffectual or don't even replace the laws whose repeal nearly collapsed the economy totally wreck the idea of democracy. Grow up.
So, basically you just said that it's ok if you do it, but it's not ok for anyone else to do it.
Nope. I'd much rather it just wasn't a thing, but in this case, it was the only way get the attention that was needed. Nobody was bought lunch or given gifts, etc. It also was in no way for personal gain, unlike most of the lobbying that is done on the national stage. The point is, lobbying has it's place, but it's being massively overused done unethically. It doesn't really matter who is doing it, it's a practice that just needs to end, as it's undermining the principles of our republic.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:30:51
So, basically you just said that it's ok if you do it, but it's not ok for anyone else to do it. He..didn't? He said
Lobbying isn't inherently bad That was the point and the followup was an example he could relate to.
I get it there are people you hate here, but you try too often too hard to change the meaning of what they're saying.. He did.
He said that his "cause" wasn't corrupt. But he followed up that lobbying as a whole is.
Read these two sentences again:
Lobbying isn't inherently bad, I've been part of organizations that used lobbyists more than once, but our goal wasn't corrupt.
Lobbying in it's current form just has way too much influence, again, muting the voices of the public.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:31:37
I'm sure that you haven't heard of this before, but there has been several laws passed in the past few years that are counter to this argument of yours.
Oh my, a couple laws that are mostly ineffectual or don't even replace the laws whose repeal nearly collapsed the economy totally wreck the idea of democracy. Grow up.
So, basically you just said that it's ok if you do it, but it's not ok for anyone else to do it.
Nope. I'd much rather it just wasn't a thing, but in this case, it was the only way get the attention that was needed. Nobody was bought lunch or given gifts, etc. It also was in no way for personal gain, unlike most of the lobbying that is done on the national stage. The point is, lobbying has it's place, but it's being massively overused done unethically. It doesn't really matter who is doing it, it's a practice that just needs to end, as it's undermining the principles of our republic. Whatever you say bub.
By Aeyela 2015-09-24 09:32:53
I enjoy reading these threads but the moment somebody starts countering your arguments you palm them off with replies like this. Pity. I'm sure you can do better!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:37:03
I enjoy reading these threads but the moment somebody starts countering your arguments you palm them off with replies like this. Pity. I'm sure you can do better! Because I could show sources where I prove he is wrong and he will ignore them.
I know when I'm talking to somebody who is about as intelligent and open as a brick wall. Why should I bother with it anymore?
Besides, he just basically proved my point. He just said "When I did it, it wasn't wrong, but when everyone else does it, it's unethical/immoral/whatever." Why should I continue with the conversation when he just destroyed his own retort?
By Jassik 2015-09-24 09:42:09
Besides, he just basically proved my point. He just said "When I did it, it wasn't wrong, but when everyone else does it, it's unethical/immoral/whatever." Why should I continue with the conversation when he just destroyed his own retort?
That's not even remotely what I said, but ok.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-24 09:48:06
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is.
Why so pessimistic? Because most of the "progress" is rooted in giving more money and more power to an organization that has proven time and time again that it doesn't know how to properly manage either one. You can pretend all you want that the government has our best interests in mind, but reality says otherwise.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 09:48:18
Besides, he just basically proved my point. He just said "When I did it, it wasn't wrong, but when everyone else does it, it's unethical/immoral/whatever." Why should I continue with the conversation when he just destroyed his own retort?
That's not even remotely what I said, but ok. Here, let me help you out:
Here is the "When I did it, it wasn't wrong" part:
I've been part of organizations that used lobbyists more than once, but our goal wasn't corrupt.
Here is the "when everyone else does it, it's unethical/immoral/whatever." part:
Lobbying in it's current form just has way too much influence, again, muting the voices of the public.
unlike most of the lobbying that is done on the national stage. The point is, lobbying has it's place, but it's being massively overused done unethically. It doesn't really matter who is doing it, it's a practice that just needs to end, as it's undermining the principles of our republic. I'm not making this up, these are your exact words.
You may not like me condescending you like this, but if you don't want to be treated like a 3 year old, you should stop making these type of statements and claim you didn't make them.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-09-24 09:57:53
I can see how reality would get in the way of the party with pipe dream utopian ideals.
Why so pessimistic? Most of the reasons given as obstacles to progress are pretty big sins: greed, jealousy, etc. I don't expect Utopia, but this place could certainly get a ***load better than is.
Why so pessimistic? Because most of the "progress" is rooted in giving more money and more power to an organization that has proven time and time again that it doesn't know how to properly manage either one. You can pretend all you want that the government has our best interests in mind, but reality says otherwise.
Where is the fault in comprehension you think?
Not giving capitalism it's due credit for being the sole reason for bringing almost everyone on the planet out of poverty.
or
Thinking the US system which isn't capitalism is actually capitalism?
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By Drama Torama 2015-09-24 10:00:35
bringing almost everyone on the planet out of poverty
When did this happen? Like, I'm not even arguing whether or not capitalism is responsible, but the notion that almost everyone is out of poverty is demonstrably untrue. Three billion people live on less than $2.50 a day.
[Edit: I know I'm going to get asked for sources. That number comes from my wife's public health research, but here's a few links that say similar things:]
World bank talking about 2011
Older numbers that show the same trend
There's more, but almost everyone uses the World Bank numbers, so that should suffice, and it's certainly more evidence than you offered.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 10:04:03
Not giving capitalism it's due credit for being the sole reason for bringing almost everyone on the planet out of poverty. Capitalism is not the sole reason, governmental action also plays a role, along with globalization and other economic factors.
Capitalism isn't here to bring everyone out of poverty, it is here to better society as a whole economically.
There is absolutely no way to abolish poverty. There will always be winners and losers in any economic and socialistic form. Even socialism creates winners and losers, it's just that there are far more losers (the general populace) than there are winners (the "educated leaders" who control the resources for distribution).
Distribution of wealth occurs more with a freer market than constrained market, also without cronyism ruling the market either. That's why liberals are so against capitalism, because they created the cronyism to make capitalism as a whole look bad.
Don't believe me? Ask them about the "myth" of trickle-down economics, which worked for the US so well during the 80s, 90s, and most of the 2000s.
By Jetackuu 2015-09-24 10:05:42
I just don't understand the failure of liberals to understand the idea of people freely entering the marketplace to compete prevents the creation of concentrated power.
Because that's not reality. Reality isn't capitalism. So stop calling it that.
Technically true as we're a hybrid system, good thing too or things would just be worse.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 10:06:53
When did this happen? Like, I'm not even arguing whether or not capitalism is responsible, but the notion that almost everyone is out of poverty is demonstrably untrue. Three billion people live on less than $2.50 a day. Those countries where poverty is rampant also don't have capitalistic economic systems.
Some, like China, has some form of a capitalist economic system, but it is ruled by a completely different system (such as communism).
China's market may look like a capitalist system, but when most of the market is ruled by the state, it is not even close to a capitalist system.
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By Drama Torama 2015-09-24 10:15:56
Those countries where poverty is rampant also don't have capitalistic economic systems.
My argument was completely with the "everyone on the planet" statement, which was just pants-on-head idiocy. Large swaths of the world are still very, very poor.
The economic systems of many of those countries are hobbled by the fact that the rule of law is often specious at best, which undermines any real economic activity; hard/impossible to enforce contracts, etc
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-24 10:21:34
My argument was completely with the "everyone on the planet" statement, which was just pants-on-head idiocy. I'm not disagreeing with you. It was pants-on-head idiocy to make such a statement.
I'm just pointing out what I believe is Nausi's point, which is that economic systems where closely relate to capitalism have far less poverty (and those who are considered poor in those systems are much richer) than those who's economic systems are not closely related to capitalism. Which is a very true statement.
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