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Random Politics & Religion #00
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-04 13:20:10
That said, the people jumping at the Dugars are pretty *** awful too, to be honest, because as much as I may dislike them and the actions comitted, it happened when the perpetrator was a minor and at this point you're making the victims re-experience all kinds of emotional distress to prove a political point...that someone is a bad person...so you do something...that re-traumatizes victims and re-condems someone who did something as a child himself when all parties have moved on... I agree that the children who were molested should never have been named because it is just making the victim live it over again on someone elses terms but as for the offender idk how I feel about it... Is he reformed? Do people have the right to know that there is a sex offender in their back yard? idk... it definitely didn't need to come out like it did but there are some things that are concerning.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-06-04 13:23:08
That said, the people jumping at the Dugars are pretty *** awful too, to be honest, because as much as I may dislike them and the actions comitted, it happened when the perpetrator was a minor and at this point you're making the victims re-experience all kinds of emotional distress to prove a political point...that someone is a bad person...so you do something...that re-traumatizes victims and re-condems someone who did something as a child himself when all parties have moved on... I agree that the children who were molested should never have been named because it is just making the victim live it over again on someone elses terms but as for the offender idk how I feel about it... Is he reformed? Do people have the right to know that there is a sex offender in their back yard? idk... it definitely didn't need to come out like it did but there are some things that are concerning.
Charging children as child molesters?
 Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-04 13:24:13
I haven't seen the interview. I thought it was being aired friday or something. I've only read an article on that and one thing is that the victims names should never have come to light.
Nope. It was on last night. I'm sure they'll rerun it.
I wanted to see what the sisters had to say, but I didn't make it that far in.
The parents repeatedly emphasized that most of the touching was done over the clothes, and squeaked out once that there were a couple of instances of up skirt. I don't understand how it would matter if its over the clothes or under...
They hired a PR guy appearantly to help em spin it. they seemed to have gone on the offense to accuse others of wrongdoing.
I didn't understand how the differentiation made it better either.
To be fair, though, the mother did get into a panic when she was describing the last straw. The "we can't control this, we need to get this kid out of our house" moment.
They said that they took preventative measures like having the girls always in pairs and no hide and seek when they were trying to control it within the house.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-04 13:26:12
Charging children as child molesters?
I'm sorry, but what kind of fourteen/fifteen-year-olds did you hang out with?
 Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-06-04 13:27:06
That said, the people jumping at the Dugars are pretty *** awful too, to be honest, because as much as I may dislike them and the actions comitted, it happened when the perpetrator was a minor and at this point you're making the victims re-experience all kinds of emotional distress to prove a political point...that someone is a bad person...so you do something...that re-traumatizes victims and re-condems someone who did something as a child himself when all parties have moved on...
There are several problems I have with the parents response when this occured and now:
1. They did not seek professional help until the third time he came to them and confessed to messing with four of his sisters and the babysitter.
They claim they watched him like a hawk but also state they wouldn't have known he had done anything to the girls without his confessions.
2. They keep stating he is a minor and this somehow absolves him of the sin of fondling girls. When he was told repeatedly this was not appropriate behavior but still did it. At least two more times after the first instance.
3. The father stating "well, it's not rape" like that somehow absolves the situation because penetration didn't happen.
I feel really, really badly for the sisters and babysitter who have to go through this again. Whoever handed over the records did a disservice to the victims involved and it is really shitty.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-06-04 13:31:56
Charging children as child molesters?
I'm sorry, but what kind of fourteen/fifteen-year-olds did you hang out with? wat?
I'm just saying I don't even know that because of his age, the words carry with them the same weight.
Can you not see any difference between groping over clothes and it's alternative under them?
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-04 13:32:44
That said, the people jumping at the Dugars are pretty *** awful too, to be honest, because as much as I may dislike them and the actions comitted, it happened when the perpetrator was a minor and at this point you're making the victims re-experience all kinds of emotional distress to prove a political point...that someone is a bad person...so you do something...that re-traumatizes victims and re-condems someone who did something as a child himself when all parties have moved on... I agree that the children who were molested should never have been named because it is just making the victim live it over again on someone elses terms but as for the offender idk how I feel about it... Is he reformed? Do people have the right to know that there is a sex offender in their back yard? idk... it definitely didn't need to come out like it did but there are some things that are concerning.
Charging children as child molesters? Like everything with kids we tend to take it on a case by case basis. We charge them with murder and just about everything else so if the circumstances are right...
It looks like this continued on for quite some time even though the parents were aware of it and had not only told him to stop but had taken measures against it.
If he's truly reformed than good on him. the question becomes though is it the publics right to know about smoething like that. If you ever put your kids in the care of someone else should you be able to know that they have a history of sexually molesting kids?
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Ragnarok.Raenil
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
By Ragnarok.Raenil 2015-06-04 13:34:03
Do people have the right to know that there is a sex offender in their back yard? They should. :|
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Bahamut.Omael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 400
By Bahamut.Omael 2015-06-04 13:36:13
Do people have the right to know that there is a sex offender in their back yard? They should. :|
Hey now, I'm not in your-
Nevermind.
Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-06-04 13:38:44
Charging children as child molesters?
I'm sorry, but what kind of fourteen/fifteen-year-olds did you hang out with? wat?
I'm just saying I don't even know that because of his age, the words carry with them the same weight.
Can you not see any difference between groping over clothes and it's alternative under them? Does it make a difference, to you, to know he groped them under their clothes too?
Minors have been charged with sexual assault before and probably will be charged in the future.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-04 13:43:41
Not defending the parents or the actions at all. But almost literally anything else that happens when you're a child stays under wraps. And yes, in the eyes of the law -- and neurologically speaking -- 14-15 year olds are still children.
They've started to mature, but things like "empathy" and "consequences" tend to be some of the final neural pathways to fully mature and can take into your twenties.
Old enough to know something is wrong? Yes.
Old enough to fully understand why? Maybe not so much.
Young enough to be taught and rehabilitated? Without question, and bringing it into the national spotlight does literally no one involved any favors and just is being done to push agendas, which is the absolute last thing that should be done.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-04 13:55:09
That said, the people jumping at the Dugars are pretty *** awful too, to be honest, because as much as I may dislike them and the actions comitted, it happened when the perpetrator was a minor and at this point you're making the victims re-experience all kinds of emotional distress to prove a political point...that someone is a bad person...so you do something...that re-traumatizes victims and re-condems someone who did something as a child himself when all parties have moved on...
There are several problems I have with the parents response when this occured and now:
1. They did not seek professional help until the third time he came to them and confessed to messing with four of his sisters and the babysitter.
They claim they watched him like a hawk but also state they wouldn't have known he had done anything to the girls without his confessions.
2. They keep stating he is a minor and this somehow absolves him of the sin of fondling girls. When he was told repeatedly this was not appropriate behavior but still did it. At least two more times after the first instance.
3. The father stating "well, it's not rape" like that somehow absolves the situation because penetration didn't happen.
I feel really, really badly for the sisters and babysitter who have to go through this again. Whoever handed over the records did a disservice to the victims involved and it is really shitty.
In the back of my mind, I keep wondering whether the two who were interviewed hastily rushed into marriage to get out. The oldest sister, who wasn't molested, is still living with her parents.
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By Terraka 2015-06-04 14:11:28
What I don't understand is why the hell one of his sisters, who was a victim, is DEFENDING him.
I mean I know he's your brother and all but he also abused you. Come on now, what he did was inexcusable regardless of his age at the time...
Honestly though, if they're trying to excuse his behavior because he was younger and that somehow it wasn't sinful in the eyes of God or whatever holy being they believe in; one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not covet" Wouldn't sexual feelings (towards your sisters or anyone else) be included with coveting?
I could be wrong, but in my mind that would also be considered coveting women... Then again, isn't that what their religion is about? Possessing women in someway?
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Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-04 14:13:54
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people?
Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-06-04 14:14:08
In the back of my mind, I keep wondering whether the two who were interviewed hastily rushed into marriage to get out. The oldest sister, who wasn't molested, is still living with her parents. Yeah, I hope they picked a good household to move to and that they received some counselling.
According to the police report it happened a bit more frequently then the parents claim with some children definately awake at times, that the parents know about.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-04 14:16:00
What I don't understand is why the hell one of his sisters, who was a victim, is DEFENDING him. If that's her perogative then thats her perogative.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-04 14:17:37
What I don't understand is why the hell one of his sisters, who was a victim, is DEFENDING him.
I mean I know he's your brother and all but he also abused you. Come on now, what he did was inexcusable regardless of his age at the time...
Honestly though, if they're trying to excuse his behavior because he was younger and that somehow it wasn't sinful in the eyes of God or whatever holy being they believe in; one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not covet" Wouldn't sexual feelings (towards your sisters or anyone else) be included with coveting?
I could be wrong, but in my mind that would also be considered coveting women... Then again, isn't that what their religion is about? Possessing women in someway?
I'm doing my best to leave my feelings on religion at the doorstep and focus on the legal and neuropsychological factors involved and what's best for individuals.
Forgiveness can be a powerful healing tool, for some people at least. Many of religious points are grounded in secular findings, whether acknowledged by the religious or not. We can be very vindictive creatures, but carrying so much hate with you can be very bad for some people. I'm not going to tell someone how to cope with their demons short of telling them not to hurts others by doing so.
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Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-04 14:18:31
What I don't understand is why the hell one of his sisters, who was a victim, is DEFENDING him. If that's her perogative then thats her perogative.
No, that stupid girl should hold a grudge against him forever. She needs some counseling to show her how to not be so forgiving.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-04 14:18:39
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people? If religion was truly focused on actually forgiving all people alike then that would be fine... though it has a nasty habit of picking and choosing who they would like to forgive and who they would like to condemn.
How can you justify forgiving someone for commiting a terrible act when you're condeming others for just being who they are?
By Terraka 2015-06-04 14:19:29
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people?
Religion is just a gray area in general. Every religion has some sort of punishment for breaking the religious laws.
There are some things that can be forgiven, but if you're a Christian and you break one of the 10 commandments, that's an unforgivable sin and the sinner will end up in Hell, right? Or did my Sunday school teachers lie to me? Lol.
So there are some things that can be forgiven, but other things can't be, in the eyes of religion.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-04 14:20:20
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people? If religion was truly focused on actually forgiving all people alike then that would be fine... though it has a nasty habit of picking and choosing who they would like to forgive and who they would like to condemn.
How can you justify forgiving someone for commiting a terrible act when you're condeming others for just being who they are?
Y'arr. Which is where Huckster's position predictably falls apart, though no doubt he'll find some way to spin it.
They always do.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-04 14:22:09
So there are some things that can be forgiven, but other things can't be, in the eyes of religion.
What evangelical pit of hell did you call a church growing up?
According to pretty much every account I've been taught in Catholic, Methodist, or Presbyterian teachings (as I've had family in all of them), Jesus died so that all of our sins may be forgiven. If we accept our imperfections, are truly repentent for them, accept Him as our savior and God as our father, all is forgiven in the end.
I don't believe the dogma. But I'd like to think I have a fairly good understanding of it.
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Lakshmi.Rooks
Administrator
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1566
By Lakshmi.Rooks 2015-06-04 14:25:06
So there are some things that can be forgiven, but other things can't be, in the eyes of religion.
What evangelical pit of hell did you call a church growing up?
According to pretty much every account I've been taught in Catholic, Methodist, or Presbyterian teachings (as I've had family in all of them), Jesus died so that all of our sins. If we accept our imperfections, are truly repentent for them, accept Him as our savior and God as our father, all is forgiven in the end.
I don't believe the dogma. But I'd like to think I have a fairly good understanding of it.
Well, for Catholicism, there's the notion of cardinal sins - things like suicide. Otherwise, and certainly in Protestantville, the "everyone sucks, so say you're sorry, MEAN IT, and into the pearly gates you go" is basically the party line.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-04 14:25:13
Or did my Sunday school teachers lie to me? Lol. The answer here is most likely yes.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-04 14:26:13
Well, for Catholicism, there's the notion of cardinal sins - things like suicide. Otherwise, and certainly in Protestantville, the "everyone sucks, so say you're sorry, MEAN IT, and into the pearly gates you go" is basically the party line.
Yeah, but the Catholic church moves it's goal lines all the time. Even the Pope acknowledges that. Remember that the party line for so long was that unbaptized babies were stuck in purgatory forever until they changed that one?
Or did my Sunday school teachers lie to me? Lol. The answer here is most likely yes.
I was trying to avoid the obvious bait here, but...yeah. That.
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Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-04 14:26:30
So there are some things that can be forgiven, but other things can't be, in the eyes of religion.
What evangelical pit of hell did you call a church growing up?
According to pretty much every account I've been taught in Catholic, Methodist, or Presbyterian teachings (as I've had family in all of them), Jesus died so that all of our sins. If we accept our imperfections, are truly repentent for them, accept Him as our savior and God as our father, all is forgiven in the end.
I don't believe the dogma. But I'd like to think I have a fairly good understanding of it.
Well, for Catholicism, there's the notion of cardinal sins - things like suicide. Otherwise, and certainly in Protestantville, the "everyone sucks, so say you're sorry, MEAN IT, and into the pearly gates you go" is basically the party line. To be fair, it's hard to do penance after a suicide.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-04 14:27:00
What I don't understand is why the hell one of his sisters, who was a victim, is DEFENDING him.
I mean I know he's your brother and all but he also abused you. Come on now, what he did was inexcusable regardless of his age at the time...
Honestly though, if they're trying to excuse his behavior because he was younger and that somehow it wasn't sinful in the eyes of God or whatever holy being they believe in; one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not covet" Wouldn't sexual feelings (towards your sisters or anyone else) be included with coveting?
I could be wrong, but in my mind that would also be considered coveting women... Then again, isn't that what their religion is about? Possessing women in someway?
I hope the two who are married have husbands that observe a more lenient view and a reciprocal respect on the wives' role in their marriage.
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people?
There are many aspects that are interwined.
1.) Religion.
2.) Abuse of power, seeing as though both he and his father are invested in state and national politics respectively.
3.) The hypocrisy of maligning and condemning a group of people for the "sin" they kept under wraps themselves.
4.) Abuse of girls and incest.
It's really all across the board with this one. Take your pick.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-04 14:27:20
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people?
Religion is just a gray area in general. Every religion has some sort of punishment for breaking the religious laws.
There are some things that can be forgiven, but if you're a Christian and you break one of the 10 commandments, that's an unforgivable sin and the sinner will end up in Hell, right? Or did my Sunday school teachers lie to me? Lol.
So there are some things that can be forgiven, but other things can't be, in the eyes of religion. I think they just didn't explain it to you very well. There are venial sins, the lesser sins that do not seperate you from god and then there are the mortal sins that do. The idea though is that god will forgive you of any sin if you are truly repentant and show as much regardless of whether it is venial or mortal. If you are not forgiven of a mortal sin then that is when you're screwed. It's all dependant on the individual and their sincerity but no sin is unforgivable if one is truly repentant.
For context this is more of a Catholic thing... I don't know how much of it translates to all the other christians.
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Lakshmi.Rooks
Administrator
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 1566
By Lakshmi.Rooks 2015-06-04 14:28:18
Yeah, but the Catholic church moves it's goal lines all the time. Even the Pope acknowledges that.
Well, yes. But that's where the idea of "unforgivable sins" comes from.
To be fair, it's hard to do penance after a suicide.
Suicide isn't the only one, it's just the most well-known, but yeah. Maybe if you said some Hail Marys as the overdose kicked in.
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Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-04 14:29:19
What should religion be focused on, in your opinion? Finding reasons to condemn other people, or finding ways to forgive other people? If religion was truly focused on actually forgiving all people alike then that would be fine... though it has a nasty habit of picking and choosing who they would like to forgive and who they would like to condemn.
How can you justify forgiving someone for commiting a terrible act when you're condeming others for just being who they are?
That was kind of my point. Here's an analogy:
A man walks into a classroom. He punches every boy in the face, but leaves the girls alone. Obviously there is a bias here. Do you:
A. Encourage him to punch all of the girls in the face, to be fair.
B. Discourage him from punching anyone in the face in the first place.
Encouraging the girl to focus more on the parts of her religion that condemn her brother's actions are closer to choice A, because you (the proverbial you, that is) perceive her as unfairly judging other groups and want her to share the misery with her own.
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