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Random Politics & Religion #00
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 13:17:33
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
I commented on the narrative that regulation costs jobs, did you just forget you aren't a potato or something? And something doesn't have to be expressly against a law to be illegal. It simply has to be contrary, the law gives the EPA the right to police and regulate dumping, disobeying the regulation is contrary to the policies they have set in accordance with the law giving them that power.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:18:19
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
"Law", "policy", and "regulation" intertwine a bit.
Congress writes laws that allow the EPA to enact and enforce regulations and policies. EPA doesn't create laws, they are authorized by laws to create regulations that are enforceable under the laws granting them their regulatory powers.
From their own website: "Congress passes the laws that govern the United States, but Congress has also authorized EPA and other federal agencies to help put those laws into effect by creating and enforcing regulations." Except that the regulatory agencies are not supposed to create regulations beyond the scope of their agency.
Regulations in regards to environmental impact of a manufacturing plant's emissions : A-OK!
Regulations in regards to suppressing businesses abilities to perform services : Not OK!
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:18:50
Quote: You honestly think that businesses are out to get you.
And you honestly think they aren't.
I really think you're giving too much credit to some of these giant corporations. They exist to make money. Some of them have even had whistleblowers and government inquiries expose policies meant to mislead the public about product dangers for the sake of money.
And much like cockroaches, you've got to expect that for each one caught, there are multiple more out there flying under the radar. Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. 
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:19:11
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
I commented on the narrative that regulation costs jobs, did you just forget you aren't a potato or something? And something doesn't have to be expressly against a law to be illegal. It simply has to be contrary, the law gives the EPA the right to police and regulate dumping, disobeying the regulation is contrary to the policies they have set in accordance with the law giving them that power. Ok Pleebo, whatever you say.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:19:36
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
"Law", "policy", and "regulation" intertwine a bit.
Congress writes laws that allow the EPA to enact and enforce regulations and policies. EPA doesn't create laws, they are authorized by laws to create regulations that are enforceable under the laws granting them their regulatory powers.
From their own website: "Congress passes the laws that govern the United States, but Congress has also authorized EPA and other federal agencies to help put those laws into effect by creating and enforcing regulations." Except that the regulatory agencies are not supposed to create regulations beyond the scope of their agency.
Regulations in regards to environmental impact of a manufacturing plant's emissions : A-OK!
Regulations in regards to suppressing businesses abilities to perform services : Not OK!
Unless the business' ability to perform services is dependant upon violating environmental regulations...
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:21:52
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
"Law", "policy", and "regulation" intertwine a bit.
Congress writes laws that allow the EPA to enact and enforce regulations and policies. EPA doesn't create laws, they are authorized by laws to create regulations that are enforceable under the laws granting them their regulatory powers.
From their own website: "Congress passes the laws that govern the United States, but Congress has also authorized EPA and other federal agencies to help put those laws into effect by creating and enforcing regulations." Except that the regulatory agencies are not supposed to create regulations beyond the scope of their agency.
Regulations in regards to environmental impact of a manufacturing plant's emissions : A-OK!
Regulations in regards to suppressing businesses abilities to perform services : Not OK!
Unless the business' ability to perform services is dependant upon violating environmental regulations... Like mowing lawns?
I love the EPA's defense in that case, not being able to cite the very regulations they are suing the company for.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:24:22
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
"Law", "policy", and "regulation" intertwine a bit.
Congress writes laws that allow the EPA to enact and enforce regulations and policies. EPA doesn't create laws, they are authorized by laws to create regulations that are enforceable under the laws granting them their regulatory powers.
From their own website: "Congress passes the laws that govern the United States, but Congress has also authorized EPA and other federal agencies to help put those laws into effect by creating and enforcing regulations." Except that the regulatory agencies are not supposed to create regulations beyond the scope of their agency.
Regulations in regards to environmental impact of a manufacturing plant's emissions : A-OK!
Regulations in regards to suppressing businesses abilities to perform services : Not OK!
Unless the business' ability to perform services is dependant upon violating environmental regulations... Like mowing lawns?
I love the EPA's defense in that case, not being able to cite the very regulations they are suing the company for.
Like I said (or rather, agreed with). The EPA is far, far from perfect at their job.
But you're equating the regulatory agency being problematic with a regulatory agency being unnecessary.
Edit: When you look at this objectively we're essentially acting the same way from opposite sides of the spectrum. We both know certain business and certain aspects of government can and will try to screw you for their bottom line or other goals.
It's just a matter of opinion as to whom you feel potentially benefits you more.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-27 13:27:05
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:31:41
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. If you honestly believe that, why aren't you in your bomb shelter by now?
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Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-27 13:36:32
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:38:30
That explains a lot then.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:40:15
That explains a lot then.
I always thought it would be fun to have a bomb shelter.
I mean, not that I really think I need it, or that I think it would actually save me from anything even if I did need it.
But it would be fun to imagine I'm in Fallout and eat some canned food and drink some Coke out of custom Nuka-Cola bottles.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:41:34
That explains a lot then.
I always thought it would be fun to have a bomb shelter.
I mean, not that I really think I need it, or that I think it would actually save me from anything even if I did need it.
But it would be fun to imagine I'm in Fallout and eat some canned food and drink some Coke out of custom Nuka-Cola bottles. Personally, I would never go down a bomb shelter.
Because if the inevitable happens and some jackass in North Korea lays waste to the world, I rather be dead than to live in the fallout.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:42:41
That explains a lot then.
I always thought it would be fun to have a bomb shelter.
I mean, not that I really think I need it, or that I think it would actually save me from anything even if I did need it.
But it would be fun to imagine I'm in Fallout and eat some canned food and drink some Coke out of custom Nuka-Cola bottles. Personally, I would never go down a bomb shelter.
Because if the inevitable happens and some jackass in North Korea lays waste to the world, I rather be dead than to live in the fallout.
Yeah...like I said. I really don't think it would save you from much one way or another.
Would just be fun to have one as, like...an adult clubhouse.
By fonewear 2014-08-27 13:45:02
If we don't destroy the Earth who will ? I'm up for it !
Don't worry though the Boy Scouts will save us.
They can tie a knot in like 30 different ways.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-27 13:52:11
Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law? \o/
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VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 13:55:16
Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law? \o/
It was an executive order by a republican... oh the IRONY!
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 14:06:28
Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law? \o/
It was an executive order by a republican... oh the IRONY!
There isn't an irony at all.
Republicans used to actually be very environmental-minded. ._.;
By fonewear 2014-08-27 14:07:13
Is it ironic that I don't know what irony is ?
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-27 14:09:01
It's a black fly in your Chardonnay.
 Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-08-27 14:13:13
It's a death row pardon two minutes too late.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 14:18:11
Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law? \o/
It was an executive order by a republican... oh the IRONY!
There isn't an irony at all.
Republicans used to actually be very environmental-minded. ._.;
It's ironic because it's at odds with the disjointed nature of modern conservatives.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 14:18:13
Is it ironic that I don't know what irony is ?
"The use of words expressing something other than their literal intention~ Now THAT. IS. IRONY!"
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By fonewear 2014-08-27 14:18:55
I always thought irony was having an iron deficiency.
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Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-27 14:21:39
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. You're all wet Pleebo, Governments have/are much WORST stewards of the environment than any business.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 14:31:45
Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law? \o/ Thank you for providing us with this link.
Did you actually read the Executive Order? I highly doubt it because nowhere in that executive order does it give the EPA power to create law.
Just in case you don't believe me.
It grants power to create regulations, but not law. So, try again.
Oh, and to preemptively counter your obvious argument, whatever wikipedia says is not law either.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 14:32:49
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. You're all wet Pleebo, Governments have/are much WORST stewards of the environment than any business.
Only when they sign legislation allowing private industry to run rampant on public land. So yes. They're not the best stewards around...you're right.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 14:34:23
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. You're all wet Pleebo, Governments have/are much WORST stewards of the environment than any business.
Only when they sign legislation allowing private industry to run rampant on public land. So yes. They're not the best stewards around...you're right. If the only two choices of stewards is government and business, and you say that government isn't the better of the two, it is reasonable to state that business is the better of the two....
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 14:35:18
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. You're all wet Pleebo, Governments have/are much WORST stewards of the environment than any business.
Only when they sign legislation allowing private industry to run rampant on public land. So yes. They're not the best stewards around...you're right. If the only two choices of stewards is government and business, and you say that government isn't the better of the two, it is reasonable to state that business is the better of the two....
They're the best of the two provided. I worded that poorly in light of his comment.
I should have said, "They're not the best steward they could be, but they're the best steward we've got at this time."
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 14:44:26
Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies. This argument doesn't hold up. It only takes a handful of businesses to royally *** the environment (or economy, as recently demonstrated) in ways that could be difficult or impossible to reverse and could result of serious, long-term damage to human populations. So yes, one bad apple does ruin the bunch.
There is absolutely no reason to trust that a business, any business, will be expected to conform to sensible environmental policy when there is zero impetus to do so and/or when skullfucking natural resources is more profitable unless we're going to start pretending that people are generally paragons of long-term rationality. You're all wet Pleebo, Governments have/are much WORST stewards of the environment than any business.
Only when they sign legislation allowing private industry to run rampant on public land. So yes. They're not the best stewards around...you're right. If the only two choices of stewards is government and business, and you say that government isn't the better of the two, it is reasonable to state that business is the better of the two....
They're the best of the two provided. I worded that poorly in light of his comment.
I should have said, "They're not the best steward they could be, but they're the best steward we've got at this time." I would refute by asking for an example, but we all know what the answer will be. I'm breaking the circle of argument now.....
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