Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard".
Random Politics & Religion #00
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Random Politics & Religion #00
Put yourself in their shoes, for the rest of your life and tell me how much you'd like to have to care for a child that requires constant 24hr supervision for the rest of the child's life. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard". I'm pro-choice. And I'm pro-the right to not adopt. I just think that if you're unwilling to adopt, but willing to have a surrogate - domestic or otherwise - your priorities and thoughts on having children are *** up. Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » An unwillingness to adopt coupled with the inability or unwillingness to give birth does not make someone unfit to be a parent. Hey, remember how this is my opinion? There are lot of things that make people unfit to be parents, and a lot of those people still have kids. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Your qualifiers are just born out of your own twisted sense of morality. As opposed to *** what? Your feelings based on your sense of morality? But yours is fine and mine is twisted. Riiiggghhttt... It has nothing to do with my feelings or my sense of morality. I'm not the one here judging anyone or calling them unfit to be parents based on some silly set of qulaifiers you seem to think are somehow relevant. The only thing I'm doing is calling you out on your *** opinion. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard". Reminds me of a story I watched (I think on 60minutes) or something like that in which a boy(probably in mid 20s or so now i think) Had to live with a skin disorder in which it falls off with the slightest touch. The mother has to change the bandages constantly to keep from infection settling in. Its most difficult for him when he moves and has to change clothes as the pain from his skin falling off his body is excruciating. He said during the interview that he wished he wasn't born because no one should have to live like that Passing on genetic material is important to people, a lot of people, and has been throughout history.
It's how humans evolve. Some parents shouldn't become parents.
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Somehow this became very Western-centric. :/
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volkom said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard". Reminds me of a story I watched (I think on 60minutes) or something like that in which a boy(probably in mid 20s or so now i think) Had to live with a skin disorder in which it falls off with the slightest touch. The mother has to change the bandages constantly to keep from infection settling in. Its most difficult for him when he moves and has to change clothes as the pain from his skin falling off his body is excruciating. He said during the interview that he wished he wasn't born because no one should have to live like that Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Fine, whatever you say. But I think they're selfish people -- or, at least, extremely short-sighted people -- who are more concerned with their biological compulsion to have their own genetic legacy live on than they are with actually having, caring for, and loving a child.
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: » Somehow this became very Western-centric. :/ Easier to blame the people paying for the services. Gotta blame someone, right?
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Caitsith.Zahrah said: » Somehow this became very Western-centric. :/ Easier to blame the people paying for the services. Gotta blame someone, right? Or both. Basically, in the mini-doc, there were "agents" hired to solicit women in these slums, most of whom were illiterate and were not even given a copy of their contract. One of the agents interviewed claimed she was directly hired by the founder of the "most reputable" of the surrogacy clinics. There were cases in which the host mothers were duped and not paid the agreed amount of their services. Like you mentioned earlier, many of the women cited their financial desperation. (Unfortunately, I couldn't find the complete video. The segment was called, 'Outsourcing Embryos'.)
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Fine, whatever you say. But I think they're selfish people -- or, at least, extremely short-sighted people -- who are more concerned with their biological compulsion to have their own genetic legacy live on than they are with actually having, caring for, and loving a child. Because, as I am now, I'd be a horrible parent to any child, and they don't deserve that? It's cute you're trying to twist this and all, but it's not really relevant. This is entirely about people who want to have children and apparently do think they're good parental material. But since you really want to put me on the spot, if my wife and I ever decide that we've changed our mind wish to have children, we will be adopting. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » volkom said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard". Reminds me of a story I watched (I think on 60minutes) or something like that in which a boy(probably in mid 20s or so now i think) Had to live with a skin disorder in which it falls off with the slightest touch. The mother has to change the bandages constantly to keep from infection settling in. Its most difficult for him when he moves and has to change clothes as the pain from his skin falling off his body is excruciating. He said during the interview that he wished he wasn't born because no one should have to live like that Jonny Kennedy (bad memory~ sorry.) Quote: Jonny Kennedy (4 November 1966 – 26 September 2003) was the subject of the documentary The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off, which documented the final months of his life as he suffered from the rare inherited condition known as dystrophic epidermolysis bullosa (EB or DEB). He was born with no skin on his left leg. Kennedy ultimately died of skin cancer caused by EB. YouTube Video Placeholder Edit: Skip to 6:00 for aborting part Caitsith.Zahrah said: » Somehow this became very Western-centric. :/ It's part of the problem in a country with such a bloated population and such prevalent poverty. Given the desperation and lack of education, people can be made to do....anything. Couple that with the type A mindset of ends justifying the means and capitalist 'maximize efficiency!!!' and the idea of farming out pregnancy can be easily rationalized. Why not dump all the problematic elements of childbirth on a surrogate and reap all of the rewards? Toss in fanciful spin about giving unproductive Indian women a purpose for existing and voila, you have a booming industry. Indian government is a notorious clusterfuck. Maybe I'm just being pesky but I thought the whole idea of pregnancy was that it wasn't easy, that you're bonding with child during all those formative months and it's an invitation for the father to be nurturing, protective and supportive. But eh, I'm obviously too young and naive. Better ask my Russian mail-order bride how she feels about farming out the baby to a Filipino.
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » people who are willing to give the stamp of approval to abortions for the sake of genetic defects because "it's too hard". I'm pro-choice. And I'm pro-the right to not adopt. I just think that if you're unwilling to adopt, but willing to have a surrogate - domestic or otherwise - your priorities and thoughts on having children are *** up. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Are you actually pro-choice or are you one of those conditional abortionists? It seemed like you took issue with people that might abort their child if genetic abnormalities were found. I'm actually pro-choice, and I'm sure you view that as a contradiction and I can see why. Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Fine, whatever you say. But I think they're selfish people -- or, at least, extremely short-sighted people -- who are more concerned with their biological compulsion to have their own genetic legacy live on than they are with actually having, caring for, and loving a child. Because, as I am now, I'd be a horrible parent to any child, and they don't deserve that? It's cute you're trying to twist this and all, but it's not really relevant. This is entirely about people who want to have children and apparently do think they're good parental material. But since you really want to put me on the spot, if my wife and I ever decide that we've changed our mind wish to have children, we will be adopting. If you don't do things the way I see it as correct then you're clearly not fit to be a parent. Do you not see how silly that is? Just because someone is willing to adopt instead of hiring a surrogate doesn't make them any more fit to be a parent then someone using a surrogate. I thnk you made that point yourself. You'd be willing to adopt first if you ever chose to and everything you've ever said about yourself leads us all to believe you'd make a terrible parent. Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Are you actually pro-choice or are you one of those conditional abortionists? It seemed like you took issue with people that might abort their child if genetic abnormalities were found. I'm actually pro-choice, and I'm sure you view that as a contradiction and I can see why. If it makes you feel any better I also see people who consider themselves pro-life and willing to allow abortion in cases of rape, incest or whatever other conditional they attach to it as being a contradiction to their proposed stance. This is the P and R I love constant bickering with no end in sight !
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The idea of a surrogate isn't the problem.
It's inadvertently exploiting vulnerable, desperate women to be your breeding machine that's the problem. Women who will be treated about as well as cows on a farm for the sake of efficiency.
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Where can I find these desperate women for breeding ?
Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If you don't do things the way I see it as correct then you're clearly not fit to be a parent. Do you not see how silly that is? I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's silly that you're advocating going literally across the world to stick your genetic material in an impoverished Indian woman (and not even in a fun way!) so that she can maybe carry to term for you a potentially healthy baby that's "yours"...instead of adopting a child that already exists, is already healthy, and needs a loving family. Several people have said, "oh, it takes a special kind of person to adopt, it's not for everyone". I think that's the case with being a parent at all, but sadly our base instincts tell us to pop out as many god damn offspring as we can, and people have been religiously and culturally conditioned to do just that. So go on and think I'm silly, or wrong, or whatever. You're allowed to have that opinion, and I certainly can't stop anyone from doing whatever tell hell they want when it comes to procreation and raising children.
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fonewear said: » Where can I find these desperate women for breeding ? *hands fone a third-world brochure* We've got white, black, asian and hispanic. All could be yours if the the price is right. Warning: Not responsible for being kidnapped by Boko Haram, FARC, three large slavic men or North Koreans. All sales final. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included.
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » The idea of a surrogate isn't the problem. It's inadvertently exploiting vulnerable, desperate women to be your breeding machine that's the problem. Women who will be treated about as well as cows on a farm for the sake of efficiency. They're both problems to me. Surrogacy is the very height of human arrogance. "Well, my wife and I can't have children directly, and even though there are plenty of children who need us, I'm going to go out of my way to stick our genetic material into a third party so that my genetic material is what grows up happy and healthy." ...and then they turn around and "get the most for their money" by sticking their white bread test tube baby into a woman (or, hell, probably a girl) who doesn't know any better and views it as her best choice in life?
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I have a feeling there is going to be a West Side Story musical about to break out: Abortion ! Rape ! When you're a jet you go to get an abortion !
YouTube Video Placeholder Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If you don't do things the way I see it as correct then you're clearly not fit to be a parent. Do you not see how silly that is? I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's silly that you're advocating going literally across the world to stick your genetic material in an impoverished Indian woman (and not even in a fun way!) so that she can maybe carry to term for you a potentially healthy baby that's "yours"...instead of adopting a child that already exists, is already healthy, and needs a loving family. Several people have said, "oh, it takes a special kind of person to adopt, it's not for everyone". I think that's the case with being a parent at all, but sadly our base instincts tell us to pop out as many god damn offspring as we can, and people have been religiously and culturally conditioned to do just that. So go on and think I'm silly, or wrong, or whatever. You're allowed to have that opinion, and I certainly can't stop anyone from doing whatever tell hell they want when it comes to procreation and raising children. Our little argument has been about you claiming that if a person is unable or unwilling to have a child by natural birth themselves and then choose surrogacy over adoption that this somehow makes them less fit to be parents. How you can not think your viewpoint is silly when we have plenty of evidence showing that anyone having a child whether by natural birth, surrogacy or adoption can be good or shitty parents blows my mind. That's why I refer to it as a twisted sense of morality because regardless of the evidence in front of your face you would still retain such a faulty viewpoint. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » Women who will be treated about as well as cows on a farm for the sake of efficiency. I never implied they would be treated that well... (also cows are worshiped in india and go wherever they damn well please....women.. not so much) So the lesson here is if you're a woman in India, dress up like a cow if you want more freedom.
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » The idea of a surrogate isn't the problem. It's inadvertently exploiting vulnerable, desperate women to be your breeding machine that's the problem. Women who will be treated about as well as cows on a farm for the sake of efficiency. They're both problems to me. Surrogacy is the very height of human arrogance. "Well, my wife and I can't have children directly, and even though there are plenty of children who need us, I'm going to go out of my way to stick our genetic material into a third party so that my genetic material is what grows up happy and healthy." ...and then they turn around and "get the most for their money" by sticking their white bread test tube baby into a woman (or, hell, probably a girl) who doesn't know any better and views it as her best choice in life? YouTube Video Placeholder |
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