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Random Politics & Religion #00
By fonewear 2015-02-27 15:28:25
It probably won't be too long before 3D printers can work with metals, and then people will be printing their own ammunition anyway.
Can already do that to print guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printed_firearms#United_States
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-02-27 15:28:47
In case anyone was wondering, yes, there are a lot of 5.56 variants, I'll put them in the spoiler, and bold/italicize the one that the ATF is looking to ban.
Quote: Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56×45mm 55-grain [3.56 g] ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M195 (United States): 5.56×45mm grenade launching blank.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M196 (United States): 5.56×45mm 54-grain [3.43 g] tracer cartridge. [red or orange tip].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Dummy, M199 (United States): 5.56x45mm dummy cartridge, non firing, indented case.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Blank, M200 (United States): 5.56×45mm violet-tipped blank cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M202 (United States): 5.56×45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM287 (United States): 5.56×45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM288 (United States): 5.56×45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M755 (United States): 5.56×45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the M234 launcher.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM777 (United States): 5.56×45mm ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM778 (United States): 5.56×45mm tracer cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain FN SS109-equivalent ball cartridge with a steel penetrator tip over a lead core in a partial copper jacket. [green tip]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free (United States): 62-grain bullet with a steel penetrator tip over a tungsten-composite core in a partial copper jacket. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws. [green tip][66]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855A1 (United States): 62-grain bullet w/ a 19-grain steel penetrator tip over a copper alloy core. [bronze tip][67]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856 (United States): 5.56×45mm 63.7-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge. Provides red visible light and lacks a steel penetrator. [orange tip][66]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856A1 (United States): 5.56×45mm 56-grain Lead Free Slug (LFS) Tracer with similar ballistic performance to the M855A1 and improved trace to range consistency.[68]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Plastic, Practice, M862 (United States): Short Range Training Ammo (SRTA) has a smaller charge than standard ball, reducing its aimed range to 250 meters, and fires a plastic bullet. The M2 training bolt must be used in the M16 Rifle / M4 Carbine when using SRTA for the weapon to cycle properly due to its lower power. It is used during training on shooting ranges near built-up or populated areas. [Brass primer, Aluminum case and Blue plastic projectile].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56×45mm 52-grain AP cartridge with a tungsten core. [black tip].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM996 (United States): 5.56×45mm so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices. [red tip?]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Frangible, MK 255 Mod 0 (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) round with copper/polymer composite core for training and operational use.[69]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1 (United States): 5.56×45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, MK318 MOD 0 enhanced 5.56 mm ammunition (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain Open-Tipped Match Boat-Tail cartridge.[70][71]
Cartridge, 5.56 mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (United States): Early USAF designation for 5.56×45mm ball cartridge produced by Remington.
Those are just the ones for the US. Obviously, the public doesn't have access to a lot of these, I know the M855A1 is what the Army switched to a while back. I'm sure the public would have no issues switching over to another variant. And no, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory of "this is just the beginning."
By Ramyrez 2015-02-27 15:30:37
In case anyone was wondering, yes, there are a lot of 5.56 variants, I'll put them in the spoiler, and bold/italicize the one that the ATF is looking to ban.
Quote: Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56×45mm 55-grain [3.56 g] ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M195 (United States): 5.56×45mm grenade launching blank.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M196 (United States): 5.56×45mm 54-grain [3.43 g] tracer cartridge. [red or orange tip].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Dummy, M199 (United States): 5.56x45mm dummy cartridge, non firing, indented case.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Blank, M200 (United States): 5.56×45mm violet-tipped blank cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M202 (United States): 5.56×45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM287 (United States): 5.56×45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM288 (United States): 5.56×45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M755 (United States): 5.56×45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the M234 launcher.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM777 (United States): 5.56×45mm ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM778 (United States): 5.56×45mm tracer cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain FN SS109-equivalent ball cartridge with a steel penetrator tip over a lead core in a partial copper jacket. [green tip]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free (United States): 62-grain bullet with a steel penetrator tip over a tungsten-composite core in a partial copper jacket. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws. [green tip][66]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855A1 (United States): 62-grain bullet w/ a 19-grain steel penetrator tip over a copper alloy core. [bronze tip][67]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856 (United States): 5.56×45mm 63.7-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge. Provides red visible light and lacks a steel penetrator. [orange tip][66]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856A1 (United States): 5.56×45mm 56-grain Lead Free Slug (LFS) Tracer with similar ballistic performance to the M855A1 and improved trace to range consistency.[68]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Plastic, Practice, M862 (United States): Short Range Training Ammo (SRTA) has a smaller charge than standard ball, reducing its aimed range to 250 meters, and fires a plastic bullet. The M2 training bolt must be used in the M16 Rifle / M4 Carbine when using SRTA for the weapon to cycle properly due to its lower power. It is used during training on shooting ranges near built-up or populated areas. [Brass primer, Aluminum case and Blue plastic projectile].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56×45mm 52-grain AP cartridge with a tungsten core. [black tip].
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM996 (United States): 5.56×45mm so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices. [red tip?]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Frangible, MK 255 Mod 0 (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) round with copper/polymer composite core for training and operational use.[69]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1 (United States): 5.56×45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, MK318 MOD 0 enhanced 5.56 mm ammunition (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain Open-Tipped Match Boat-Tail cartridge.[70][71]
Cartridge, 5.56 mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (United States): Early USAF designation for 5.56×45mm ball cartridge produced by Remington.
Those are just the ones for the US. Obviously, the public doesn't have access to a lot of these, I know the M855A1 is what the Army switched to a while back. I'm sure the public would have no issues switching over to another variant. And no, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory of "this is just the beginning."
The impression I got from what I've read was they were trying to outlaw the entire caliber range.
If they're just trying to get rid of one military-grade variety or w/e...well, it's still shady, but that changes the picture a little.
Still, in practice, it's just party-line pandering.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-02-27 15:32:00
No, they are not trying to ban the entire caliber. Just the M855 green tip, which they have classified as Armor Piercing. That classification is a little shady, but the act of banning it is well within the ATF's jurisdiction.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-02-27 15:32:10
I still love the logic that a guy who is in the frame of mind to shoot at a cop is also going to be concerned with the legality of his weapon & ammunition. by that logic you should just go sell people tanks and missles though.
I think the idea behind it is to make it less available to the general public. by doing that it usually becomes a lot harder and more expensive for someone who would shoot at a cop or anyone for that matter to find/purchase.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-02-27 15:32:41
It probably won't be too long before 3D printers can work with metals, and then people will be printing their own ammunition anyway. Scratches head.
I don't think that you understand what ammunition consists of.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-02-27 15:34:39
I think the idea behind it is to make it less available to the general public.
coming from the guy that lives in a city with the most stringent gun laws, & the most per capita cases of gun violence?
how well is this 'idea' going for chicago?
Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2015-02-27 15:34:48
It probably won't be too long before 3D printers can work with metals, and then people will be printing their own ammunition anyway. Scratches head.
I don't think that you understand what ammunition consists of.
Yes I do, but it still won't be long before people can make it themselves, should the need arise.
By fonewear 2015-02-27 15:36:01
Getting ammo is tough *heads to local wal mart* !
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-02-27 15:46:22
I think the idea behind it is to make it less available to the general public.
coming from the guy that lives in a city with the most stringent gun laws, & the most per capita cases of gun violence?
how well is this 'idea' going for chicago? Considering that you can CC here now and the ban on owning a weapon in the city is over and still nothing has changed I'd say that it doesn't really make a difference when you ban guns.
I've lived here all my life and never experienced any gun violence and have never owned a gun myself. If you remember I even put that sign outside my house for a month that said I don't own a gun and nothing happened.
What you guys don't seem to realize is that 95% of the gun violence in chicago can be avoided if you stay out of just a few neighborhoods and its usually bangers killing bangers and the unfortunate bystandard that wouldn't have been able to do anything if they had a gun anyways.
Chicago hasn't been the highest in awhile and illinois isn't even close to the top.
If you think you haven't been victimized because you own a gun then you'd most likely be wrong. I always point to the millions of guns that have been stolen from peoples homes over the years as one example.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-02-27 15:47:33
It probably won't be too long before 3D printers can work with metals, and then people will be printing their own ammunition anyway. Scratches head.
I don't think that you understand what ammunition consists of.
Yes I do, but it still won't be long before people can make it themselves, should the need arise. Um?
About -200ish years or so?
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-02-27 16:00:21
I'd say that it doesn't really make a difference when you ban guns.
that's all I was saying.
If you think you haven't been victimized because you own a gun then you'd most likely be wrong.
I've been in some more interesting spots than I'd care to admit. would a handgun have saved me? I don't think so. I know for sure one time it might have even gotten me killed, but I wasn't trying to make that point in the first place.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-02-27 16:05:07
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »I'd say that it doesn't really make a difference when you ban guns.
that's all I was saying. I assumed you were saying the opposite. Like Chicago has a higher rate of gun violence because it had the strictest rules regarding gun ownership.
If you think you haven't been victimized because you own a gun then you'd most likely be wrong.
I've been in some more interesting spots than I'd care to admit. would a handgun have saved me? I don't think so. I know for sure one time it might have even gotten me killed, but I wasn't trying to make that point in the first place. More just me going off on the side about gun related topics. A lot of times you hear people say well if they had a gun they coulda stopped em or you guys have higher crime rates because you don't have guns.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-02-27 16:09:57
Like Chicago has a higher rate of gun violence because it had the strictest rules regarding gun ownership.
nope, just a testament to it's ineffectiveness.
A lot of times you hear people say well if they had a gun they coulda stopped em or you guys have higher crime rates because you don't have guns.
yeah people like to champion that. My mind isn't really on the 'night burglar' as it is more on the sudden collapse of our lovely modern infrastructure, & the dregs of society roaming the town in packs looting for survival.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-27 16:46:43
It probably won't be too long before 3D printers can work with metals, and then people will be printing their own ammunition anyway. Scratches head.
I don't think that you understand what ammunition consists of.
Yes I do, but it still won't be long before people can make it themselves, should the need arise. Um?
About -200ish years or so? What are you talking about? Forming lead is one of the most difficult processes on earth. We're definitely not referring to a metal that is malleable to human hands.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-02-27 16:58:02
Forming lead is one of the most difficult processes on earth.
no, it's not.
forming the brass is actually tougher. making your own ammunition is a very common thing, all across the USA.
edit*
O you were just being facetious & it went over my head the first read-through, I'm sorry, I'll get off my computer & go get a drink
By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 17:16:24
Well, there is nothing in the Constitution that protects bullets. lolwhat?
By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 17:18:08
and you can already 3d print bullets, at least shells, but let's say there was even a decent one to print, it would take some time to get some well made ones with good accuracy, and that won't malfunction.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 17:18:59
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »Banning the sale of the bullets has the effect of disarming the gun's owner. If it happens it will be overturned by the Courts just like the President's most recent lawlessness on immigration. The executive branch outright refusing to enforce laws passed by the legislative branch and signed into law by the executive branch has the effect of creating a law.
We still have over a year and a half of this bozo. I can't imagine the ***he is going to try in his last year. Vic has already pre-agreed with it all no matter what it is. There's nothing unlawful about the immigration reform executive action, ffs.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-02-27 17:47:21
Oh I get it you're not being serious. lol good one Brah.
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VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-27 17:47:37
and you can already 3d print bullets, at least shells, but let's say there was even a decent one to print, it would take some time to get some well made ones with good accuracy, and that won't malfunction.
Plus it would take at minimum a few hours per bullet, a few hundred dollars in materials, and a 2 million dollar machine.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 17:57:49
and you can already 3d print bullets, at least shells, but let's say there was even a decent one to print, it would take some time to get some well made ones with good accuracy, and that won't malfunction.
Plus it would take at minimum a few hours per bullet, a few hundred dollars in materials, and a 2 million dollar machine.
You haven't been keeping up with 3d printers have you?
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-27 18:06:15
and you can already 3d print bullets, at least shells, but let's say there was even a decent one to print, it would take some time to get some well made ones with good accuracy, and that won't malfunction.
Plus it would take at minimum a few hours per bullet, a few hundred dollars in materials, and a 2 million dollar machine.
You haven't been keeping up with 3d printers have you?
I was being facetious, but unless the technology has advanced light years since last month, there still isn't a commercially available one with the ability to print brass, and if the metal isn't a concern, you're still looking at 8-10K for a printer capable of printing a bullet.
When it comes to ammunition at least, you're still better off reclaiming old casings and casting bullets by hand for the foreseeable future.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-27 18:09:51
There's nothing unlawful about the immigration reform executive action, ffs. The existence of executive orders is still something that's open to debate in terms of being in the law and Constitution.
However, in terms of use of executive orders, our current President is way behind the curve compared to his antecedents. So if we're going to get into a debate about Obama occasionally using a grey-area power, we'd also need to point out how many more Bush, Jr. (among others), used despite his party having Congressional majority.
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 18:11:35
Can at least make shells, but 8-10k isn't 2 million.
But to this:
When it comes to ammunition at least, you're still better off reclaiming old casings and casting bullets by hand for the foreseeable future.
Basically, if nothing else for accuracy, and stability.
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-27 19:56:48
Can at least make shells, but 8-10k isn't 2 million.
But to this:
When it comes to ammunition at least, you're still better off reclaiming old casings and casting bullets by hand for the foreseeable future.
Basically, if nothing else for accuracy, and stability.
Those hobbyist style printers might get the job done, I was making a joke about rapid prototyping machines required to produce the amount of ammunition the reactionaries claim is necessary. It was just too veiled and poorly presented. Carry on, good sir.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-02-27 22:37:05
There's nothing unlawful about the immigration reform executive action, ffs. The existence of executive orders is still something that's open to debate in terms of being in the law and Constitution.
However, in terms of use of executive orders, our current President is way behind the curve compared to his antecedents. So if we're going to get into a debate about Obama occasionally using a grey-area power, we'd also need to point out how many more Bush, Jr. (among others), used despite his party having Congressional majority.
You only need to point out the actions of other Presidents if you are incapable of defending the illegal Executive order of President Obama and you want to deflect and discuss other unnamed Executive orders from other Presidents; basically change the subject. But since you want to use some vague actions of President Obama's predecessors you also clearly illustrate the danger of sitting back idly while this President writes law by deciding which laws he will enforce. Now future Presidents that you may not have a hard on for can use President Obama's illegal actions as justification for not enforcing any laws of their choosing, particularly good laws that you may agree with and were also legally passed. Choosing not to enforce a law is equal to creating a new law that contradicts a law. That is not the role of the President and is clearly illegal. We only have one President at one time and bringing up others is a waste of time because there is nothing you can do about it.
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-27 22:41:54
Please do tell us which parts of which executive action is illegal. Everyone keeps saying "illegal actions" without actually naming anything that's illegal or even questionable.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-02-27 22:45:42
One he grants legal status to people clearly in America in violation of the law. Two he is issuing working papers to them which is clearly in violation of existing law. Giving them working papers go above and beyond not enforcing the law. It is saying that this is the new law.
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