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Random Politics & Religion #00
 Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-12-21 16:41:26
I foolishly watched football instead of the dem debate, in retrospect I should have recorded it, as it was a boring weekend all around. did I miss anything funny?
Had it DVRed and watched yesterday.
I think the funniest thing we'll get is more Larry David skits.
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 Ragnarok.Zeig
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1619
By Ragnarok.Zeig 2015-12-21 16:43:45
I challenge that it was the mainstream throughout the history of Islam That would be worthy of an interesting discussion. Gonna PM.
By maldini 2015-12-21 16:45:20
I challenge that it was the mainstream throughout the history of Islam That would be worthy of an interesting discussion. Gonna PM. Bring it on! Going to be a long debate though and unless you've listened to the entire series on Mu3awiyah and Yazeed and then read the material he mentions, it will take a year.
(That's how long it took me to move from where I was to where I am)
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-12-21 16:49:52
In some cases they have treated the women as if they did something wrong and it's appalling. Marte Dalelv, a Norwegian woman on business in Dubai, was raped by a colleague and when she reported it the cops threw her in jail for extramarital sex. Even though there was evidence that corroborated her story she received a prison sentence of sixteen months in for perjury, consensual extramarital sex and alcohol consumption. She was eventually pardoned (which means the rapist was too)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Marte_Dalelv
Can read the rest here, it's a joke how it was handled. She's not alone either.
 Garuda.Chanti
Server: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11402
By Garuda.Chanti 2015-12-21 16:50:14
All I have is sympathy for those indoctrinated and shackled to religion forced upon them from birth. You realize this happens in christian places too to varying degrees? I swear, half the time when he goes off like that I think of the Duggars not Muslims.
 Siren.Akson
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2172
By Siren.Akson 2015-12-21 16:51:08
YouTube Video Placeholder Do we think this does or does not belong in the UK or beyond?
By maldini 2015-12-21 16:53:09
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »In some cases they have treated the women as if they did something wrong and it's appalling. Marte Dalelv, a Norwegian woman on business in Dubai, was raped by a colleague and when she reported it the cops threw her in jail for extramarital sex. Even though there was evidence that corroborated her story she received a prison sentence of sixteen months in for perjury, consensual extramarital sex and alcohol consumption. She was eventually pardoned (which means the rapist was too)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Marte_Dalelv
Can read the rest here, it's a joke how it was handled. She's not alone either.
This would be failure of the justice system if true (not saying it isn't). But its not failure of Islam.
Did the Force fail when Anakin Skywalker turned to the darkside?
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-12-21 16:54:39
Am I the only one bored out of my *** with Islam?
By maldini 2015-12-21 16:58:46
YouTube Video Placeholder Do we think this does or does not belong in the UK or beyond?
Any violence, be it against a wife or husband or a child, has no place in any of the world's societies, period.
As a Muslim, it makes my blood boil when I see a video of a central asian on the streets of Britain saying "This is a sharia compliant street. No women without head scarfs allowed here". When I say makes my blood boil, I went looking for them. As a muslim fluent in arabic I looked for these "muslims" on the streets of Britain to give them a good mental whooping. They don't even read arabic or understand the words they are reciting most of the time. They depend on translations that have cultural overtones - in other words they've translated them to believe what they want to believe. I've been called an infidel an apostate an apologist a hypocrite all too quickly. I don't know what to tell you other than Britain isn't dealing with it right. These people seem uneducated and on the fringes of society, not well integrated. They're giving Islam a bad rep.
on that note - off to bed. work in 6 hours le ewww.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-12-21 18:22:54
Am I the only one bored out of my *** with Islam?
Nope, don't care about it at all.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-12-21 23:52:40
How peaceful are these "moderate" Muslims if Hillary's Trump videos supposedly make them instantly turn into Jihadists?
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Valefor.Endoq
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6906
By Valefor.Endoq 2015-12-22 00:09:43
EDIT: I meant to post this in "Trump Talk"....
Siren.Akson
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2172
By Siren.Akson 2015-12-22 01:04:53
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 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-22 05:07:06
Mandera bus attack: Muslims shield Christian passengers in Kenya
Quote: A group of Muslims protected Christian passengers when suspected Islamic extremists ambushed a bus in Kenya, according to eyewitness accounts.
The attackers ordered people off the vehicle in Mandera before telling them to split into groups of Muslims and non-Muslims. The Muslims refused their demands - daring the alleged extermists to kill them too, according to the Daily Nation newspaper.
"The Muslims stood with the Christians and dared the attackers to kill them all or leave," Mandera Governor Ali Roba told Anadolu Agency.
"This forced the miliants to leave in a hurry fearing retaliation by residents from nearby villiages
No one has taken responsibility for the attack, which has killed three people, but the militants are suspected to be from the terrorist group al-Shabaab.
When al-Shabaab killed 148 people in an attack in Kenya earlier this year, the militants reportedly singled out Christians, while freeing many Muslims.
Kenya has experienced several attacks from al-Shabaab, an extremist group linked to al-Qaida, since it sent troops to Somalia to fight the group in 2011.
By charlo999 2015-12-22 08:02:38
I havnt got time for that. This has got to be your funniest response of the year.
Anyways, incoming long response, hopefully the last of its kind to Charlo:
Lol your the one who brought it up as a parallel why we should accept it in today's world from Islam and sharia. That's just you reading too much into it. I'm not asking you to accept anything, I was merely pointing out the inconsistency on your part for glossing over the laws of the OT while jumping the gun at Islam for having something like the death penalty.
You provided a poor analogy, I pointed that out but you kept insisting that it's sound, so fine, whatever floats your boat.
Lol again your the one who brought it up. This was a response to this ignorant mocking. Why did you even write it if you didn't want to discuss it? Irrelevant because the point I was making was not the illogicality of claiming to be both trinitarian and monotheistic (for which you provided more poor analogies), but I was rather pointing to the sudden change in "God's" personality that's in parrallel with the changes of law.
The OT stresses the oneness of God and never mentions the trinity. I'm sure you'd pull something out of context from this translation of translations that was compiled from different sources over centuries way past its supposed original dates, that's been subject to change by scholars and to error by countless scribes, and somehow try to turn it into a relevant reference to Jesus to relieve any dissonance you might feel. Again, whatever floats your boat, but don't expect everyone to buy that.
The analogy of arms and legs was particularly poor. The Trinitarian doctrine states that each "part" is a "person". My arm is part of me, it's not its own "person". I can be me without arms or legs. Unless you can point at your severed (or dead) arm and call it Charlo, which will just make everyone laugh at you.
Hey, I can do this quoting business too:
Quote: According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[8] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".[9] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[10]
Everyone knows by now that the Trinity was never mentioned in the whole scripture:
Quote: While the Fathers of the Church saw even Old Testament elements such as the appearance of three men to Abraham in Book of Genesis, chapter 18, as foreshadowings of the Trinity, it was the New Testament that they saw as a basis for developing the concept of the Trinity. The most influential of the New Testament texts seen as implying the teaching of the Trinity was Matthew 28:19, which mandated baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Reflection, proclamation and dialogue led to the formulation of the doctrine that was felt to correspond to the data in the Bible. The simplest outline of the doctrine was formulated in the 4th century, largely in terms of rejection of what was considered not to be consonant with general Christian belief. Further elaboration continued in the succeeding centuries.[11]
Scripture contains neither the word Trinity,[12] nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in trinitarian terms.[13] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[14] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory were proposed.[15] Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects).
How you subscribe to a faith whose most basic, central tenet is a complete puzzle is beyond me.
If you want to base your beliefs on your "imagination" (and have a little divine family of 3, 7, or 108), that's fine. But don't go attacking other people's faiths when you can't even explain/defend yours properly. Glasshouses and all that.
We have 100 sharia courts already in the UK. Muslims are advised to sort legal matters there instead of the lands police, courts. Good. It's their right. It upsets you? You want that right reserved for Christians only?
Britain isn't a Christian country (well practically speaking), get over it (or move to the US and vote for Trump). And the Muslim population in it are not all immigrants, there are second and third gen citizens who have every right to practice their religion, else their ancestors wouldn't have moved there.
What an Islamophobe.
This was specifically in response to the harsh punishments in the Old Testament. Quote or tell me which of these the Quran refutes.
When you try and compare to the OT you ironically doubley convict your own faith. The Quran affirms every one of these punishments or actions. It's not the Quran, and it's not every law.
We've established that it's not morally reprehensible to you for these punishments to be part of a religion (ergo OT).
In what way does it convict Islam?
Premarital sex and disobeying your parents for example. Not to mention that everything in the OT is pretty much worth a stoning (not just death, stoning). In Islam it's only adultery (extramarital affairs), and it has to be witnessed by at least 4 different individuals seeing the act explicitly. That won't happen unless people start doing it in the streets. And who goes about their affairs publicly or gets caught in the act in this manner exactly? So this punishment virtually never happens, but it's part of the law as a deterrent and indicator of its ugliness. That's why you never hear about stonings in Saudi Arabia (where it's part of the law).
Ragnarok.Zeig said: charlo999 said: A 20 year old is not under the same restrictions a 6 year old is under, they have more freedom. Government laws are not gods. That's not a good analogy. Children have more restrictions on their actions, but adults face harsher consequences for their actions.
I'm refering to gods point of view looking at humans as a father as an analogy. The harsher punishments as an adult don't come from your father do they?
I'm saying that kids never deserve harsher punishments lol. So equating OT harsh laws with a father controlling his children is not a good analogy. More restrictions on kids? Yes! Harsher punishments on kids? Hell no.
So yeah, let's put an end to this crap. Stop attacking and hating. I find it ironic that you're the one who's supposed to be all lovey-dovey and accepting, and perhaps turn the other cheek lol, yet the majority of your posts are about attacking Islam. You've been pretty unchristian-like.
Already answered most of the stuff here regarding OT punishments and comparing them to Islam. Not going to repeat myself on that.
Although Im absolutely amazed you've brought up the trinity. STRAWMAN.
Then you do me the pleasure of disputing it as unbiblical for me in the very next quote thank you lol.
Why do I have to believe in the term trinity to be Christian?
I'm a bible beliving Christian.
Then you accuse Christians of worshiping 3 gods. Even they don't say that in what you quoted.
But wait didn't God appear to Abraham with 2 Angels and physically ate food with him?
Didn't God appear in a cloud to the Hebrews on the mountain top?
So shouldn't I be worshiping 5 gods on your understanding?
Or are they all manifestations of the same God?
Did you not understand for example the Lord of the rings Sauron, where his spirit was in the ring, he was physically killed and also was the eye?
Is God, in your eyes more limited?
Then you say I'm unchristian because I'm attacking Islam?
Man you are clueless on bible.
Quote: Romans 16:17-18New English Translation (NET Bible)
17 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles contrary to the teaching that you learned. Avoid them! 18 For these are the kind who do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By their smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of the naive.
Quote: Matthew 7:15New English Translation (NET Bible)
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves.
Quote: Ephesians 5:11New English Translation (NET Bible)
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Attacking and exposing Islam is not attacking people. Which I shouldn't do.
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By charlo999 2015-12-22 08:19:00
YouTube Video Placeholder Do we think this does or does not belong in the UK or beyond?
Any violence, be it against a wife or husband or a child, has no place in any of the world's societies, period.
As a Muslim, it makes my blood boil when I see a video of a central asian on the streets of Britain saying "This is a sharia compliant street. No women without head scarfs allowed here". When I say makes my blood boil, I went looking for them. As a muslim fluent in arabic I looked for these "muslims" on the streets of Britain to give them a good mental whooping. They don't even read arabic or understand the words they are reciting most of the time. They depend on translations that have cultural overtones - in other words they've translated them to believe what they want to believe. I've been called an infidel an apostate an apologist a hypocrite all too quickly. I don't know what to tell you other than Britain isn't dealing with it right. These people seem uneducated and on the fringes of society, not well integrated. They're giving Islam a bad rep.
on that note - off to bed. work in 6 hours le ewww.
Do not belive this garbage of someone has to be able to speak Arabic to understand the Quran. It's a massive sidestep. And another point that exposes the Allah as false. Apparently Allah made Arabic as the only language we can understand him. The bible is translated worldwide without such restraint.
Why would maldini then go and post direct translations in English (like he has done, out of context) if he believed this.
The Quran does infact allow a husband to be physical to his wife. Which is why the court did what they did. Sharia allows it.
Quote from http://quran.com/4/34 link
Quote: 4:34
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
Both links goes through ALL the possible translations even the modern ones the apologetics use to defend the verse. Where they say it means 'seperate'.
Now I'm willing to listen to intelligent rebuttals of this. But I'm afraid there will be either silence or a change of tact.
By Ramyrez 2015-12-22 08:25:02
I've got a better idea.
People should stop using religion as an excuse for any negative action, or at least shut up about it and stop dragging it into public policy.
By maldini 2015-12-22 08:33:11
Man you are clueless on bible. 
Quote: “I will corrupt your seed and
spread dung upon your faces!” Quote: "Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
Quote: "For our God is a consuming fire!" Quote: “The Lord is a man of War!” Quote: "...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!" Quote: "Their children shall be dashed
to pieces before their eyes!
There houses spoiled, and their
wives raped...Dash the young men
to pieces...have no pity on the
fruit of the womb, the children
shall not be spared" Quote: Now go, attack the Amalekites and utterly destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'”
Those are all quotes from the Bible. Bring me some quotes from the Quran you don't like and lets discuss them.
Ex-Christian Scholar and revert to Islam Yusuf Estes has a great website comparing the two http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp
Quote: Attacking and exposing Islam is not attacking people. Which I shouldn't do.
That is some warped reality right there. You should hold PEOPLE accountable for their actions. Individuals and not the collective.
You can't blame science for hiroshima and nagasaki, or Petrol and Oil for Global warming - you blame the people/individuals/corporations/countries/leaders.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-12-22 08:38:48
I've got a better idea.
People should stop using religion as an excuse for any negative action, or at least shut up about it and stop dragging it into public policy.
By maldini 2015-12-22 08:44:16
Quote: Both links goes through ALL the possible translations even the modern ones the apologetics use to defend the verse. Where they say it means 'seperate'.
Now I'm willing to listen to intelligent rebuttals of this. But I'm afraid there will be either silence or a change of tact.
There's nothing to discuss. That is a genuine verse from the Quran. "Qawamoon 3la el Nisaa" doesn't sound bad in Arabic because it is derived from the word "Qam" - "stood upright" and "Qum" - "stand upright" - so it means to stand upright for women and have the authority to do so. Arabic is a very very beautiful and complex language, when you transliterate and don't take the nuances into consideration you're going to end up with a partial truth most of the times. I'm not saying Islam doesn't make the Patriarch the authority in the family; it most certainly does. But it qualifies the position as well.
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Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-22 08:47:20
And then the man said "God, I am hungry", and so God gave him a wife so that she could make him a sammich.
By maldini 2015-12-22 08:50:00
And then the man said "God, I am hungry", and so God gave him a wife so that she could make him a sammich. Depends who you ask. I've listened to a very convincing sermon quoting the Quran and it argued that Eve came before Adam. Need to re-relook at this sermon. It was one of those "OH WOW!" moments but I got busy with work and never got back to looking into it. Ramyrez said: »
I've got a better idea.
People should stop using religion as an excuse for any negative action, or at least shut up about it and stop dragging it into public policy. TheEconomists "The World in 2016" - worth a watch (and not related)
YouTube Video Placeholder
Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-22 08:51:46
Both came from Anunnaki aniway.
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By Ramyrez 2015-12-22 09:04:28
And then the man said "God, I am hungry", and so God gave him a wife so that she could make him a sammich.
The only actual problem with same sex marriage.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-12-22 09:07:57
/won'tsomebodythinkofthesandwiches.jpg
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By Ramyrez 2015-12-22 09:09:02
/won'tsomebodythinkofthesandwiches.jpg
Yeah, I'm thinking of them right *** now and I've still got two hours until lunch.
Damn sandwich discussion anyhow.
Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-22 09:20:05
Speaking of that video anyway, I bet Mag is gonna love that hiphop Shakespeare group lol.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-12-22 09:23:00
In liberal tactics news:
Sanders: Sandra Bland would be alive "if she were a white woman"
Quote: Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said late Monday that Sandra Bland would not have died while in police custody in Texas if she were a white woman.
“Sandra Bland should not have died while in police custody,” the Democratic presidential candidate said in a statement posted on Twitter.
“There’s no doubt in my mind that she, like too many African Americans who die in police custody, would be alive today if she were a white woman,” he continued.
“My thoughts are with her family and loved ones tonight. We need to reform a very broken criminal justice system.”
Sanders’ remarks follow a grand‘s decision Monday night to refuse returning indictments relating to Bland’s death earlier this year.
Bland, 28, was found hanged in her jail cell in Waller County, Texas on July 13. She was arrested following a confrontation with a police officer over a minor traffic stop. Video has since emerged of Bland arguing with Officer Brian Encinia over her alleged failure to signal she was changing lanes.
The Waller County coroner has since ruled her death a suicide, drawing angry skepticism from family members who point to her budding career as a lawyer.
Sanders has repeatedly condemned the incident while Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton earlier this year described the incident as “particularly tragic.”
Two Texas Democrats, Reps. Sheila Jackson Lee and Al Green, are among several lawmakers who have urged the Justice Department to probe the circumstances surrounding Bland’s death.
Like Obama, Sanders is stirring up the pot by making outlandish and heated racial comments in his bid for power.
I mean, what else do they have in their playbook? Honesty? Integrity? A willingness to compromise and work together with people who don't agree with them? Nope, all they have is diverseness and the penchant of blaming others for their own faults.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-12-22 09:42:13
I don't know much about that case, but how in the hell would a white woman have killed herself less proficiently? is bernie saying some deputy would have been staring at whitey 24/7 and not blacky?
I don't get it.
By Ramyrez 2015-12-22 09:45:19
While this issue may be an issue of police acting in an inappropriate fashion, and while race is a factor in our justice system, in this particular situation I'm not sure correlation, let alone causation, can really be drawn based on race.
However that doesn't seem to stop politicians, even ones I largely like, from pandering to anyone they can for support without regard for specific facts.
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