Random Politics & Religion #00

This is not a conversation worth having unless someone smarter than nausi can provide an argument for tipping. Personal experience is irrelevant.

That is pretty much the liberal motto "Experience is irrelevant." Fantasy, conjecture, reading about something on the internet; the basis for all liberal decision making.

So, a singular experience should dictate policy? Or are you saying that logic is a liberal agenda?

The latter.

However, this whole conversation is trash anyway. There is no blanket yes/no answer on tipping. Shitholes like Denny's should pay their wait staff more and they shouldn't have to be concerned with making a living on tips. I say shithole, but Moons Over My Hammy is still a great sammich.

Finer establishments though where the clients are paying for a dining experience, tips are earned by professionals. This whole conversation is insulting to people that choose service as a career like they are all charity cases.

Goes without saying that aman doesn't qualify.

If your job can be done by a high school drop out and pays less than half of minimum wage, it's not a career, it's just better than starving.

The problem is, if you draw a line like that, someone is in charge of deciding where that line is, which means in the best case scenario, more bureaucracy. More likely it leads to worker exploitation.

Give servers standard wages. Bump prices up if need be, because there's now a 15%+ charge at the end that's not getting tacked on. The service argument has always seemed weird to me, because if a server is underperforming, they just get fired. If anything, I would assume service would get better, as servers aren't cheap to keep around anymore and you'd be more incentivized to fire terrible servers.

And I have yet to see anyone address my original three points, so there's that too. Just get rid of tipping.

Does it absolutely kill you that there are high school drop outs out there that make better livings than you do?

1. You have no clue what kind of living I make
2. I'm sure there are some out there
3. No, it doesn't bother me at all.

Do you have any point to make or are you just resorting to jibes now?

I'd say the service in Germany, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands is great. Then again, eating out in Europe is paced more casually.

Having worked as a server in HS and college, I have wondered if being reliant on tipping has an adverse effect on the experience of dining out itself, given experiences in Europe. You're not trying to hastily turn tables or worrying about that Sunday twelve top who takes up a good portion of your section.

Church crowd and temporary tax-return "gazillionaires"...



Though, I do agree with you that it is a job that everyone should experience. That grit your teeth grin works interchangeably in multiple situations.

EDIT: Can't really gauge as far as Italy and France since it was a tour group situation for both one time and France, exclusively, I was too young to be paying attention.

I will say that my uncle's favorite spot for over twenty years that is owned by an Italian family that immigrated to Germany always had phenomenal customer service.

It is a dead end job. There are no advancement opportunities within the organization unless you are
a) willing to take a pay cut as a manager
B) consider becoming a bartender a job advancement.
C) open you own place and hope you can survive the few years it takes to get into the black

Can you make good money? Yes, on average you can.

But there are many factors that can prevent you from achieving your nighly/weekly/monthly goal that have nothing to do with your awesome server skills.

Beyond economy wide recessions or random economic issues*.
-There are managers who over staff the shift and bump every servers earning potential down.**
-There are bad sections***
-There are places that pass on normal business business expenses to the servers****.
-Not to mention customers who just want to keep sitting in that table in your section instead of leaving quickly after their meal so you can turn that table

I've had good and bad experiences in other countries regarding service. Whether it's up to your standards, I don't know since everyone has a different perspective.



*I was serving in Atlanta when Katrina hit and after people were done being scared about gas or fighting at the pumps, not many were interested in going out to a nice resturant downtown. For a couple of weeks the resturant was slow

**going from a 4 table station night to a 2 table section pretty much destorys the earning potential. For a couple of weeks my idiot, drunk, anger management issues floor manager did this to make the point not to question his judgement and to not report him to the owner. Afterwards he was down 3/4 of his staff with the owner having to offer cash bonuses to people to get them to return. However, $200 doesn't even remotely make up the difference in lost wages

***having a bar section split between multiple servers on a week night with limited sporting events. I worked for three hours before being cut....and I never had a single customer.

****Tip outs are horrible. I've worked (not for very long) in places where there were 5 people I had to tip out every night (bar, hostness, busser, dessert case reviewer, and part of the kitchen for "dressing" my plates). Then there was the place that wanted to pass on credit card per transaction charge onto servers to pay.

Ohoho you.

Why do mods still let you post? What purpose does this post serve?

What purpose does this post serve? This question can be asked all day. Nice try tho.

Not sure about just a tipping job, but I've always felt everyone should work in the service industry at some point in their life, especially on the major holidays. It's a dream that people might understand long lines happen and there just isn't the staff to make it go faster, there is no magic stockroom where sold out items are kept, and employees aren't always cheery on Christmas because they were forced to work (or be fired) instead of spending the day with there family.

The hell you say!

Could have just ended it there, especially in retail.

Kara sorry but they banned using personal experience in this discussion. I quote Vic when I say "Nice try though."

It's P&R and liberal tenants are grounded in acedemia and classrooms with no real work experience to back them up. That was the purpose of my post.

Now you can answer for yours.

One is a jab at an ideology, the other is a jab at a person.

Thats a nice fantasy assumption with nothing to back it up, it makes me laugh but it has no basis in reality. Its just a troll attack on liberals, par for the course for you and nausi. It serves no purpose, its not true, and it was deservedly mocked.

Funny how it's generally the faux conservatives who talk about achievement nonstop but grew up with money and work in daddy's office.

With very few exceptions, everyone has had to work hard in their life. Some much harder than others, and often having that experience is what shapes their opinions. IS it not possible that someone could come to a different conclusion than you without having been carried through life?

Not a jab, genuinely curious. I'm trying to understand what is the big problem you have with someone willingly taking a job as a server under those conditions of "bust your *** and you might be able to make some decent money." Why does a certain section of the populations seek to outlaw that kind of agreement? Is it because it doesn't always work out that way? That is a risk both parties are willing to take.

It's not a dead end job by it's nature, you meet many people, some jerks and some not. You might actually meet people whom you can network with later on. I mean I viewed it that way, it lead to other jobs in college.

I eat lunch at the local UNOs often (even though UNO's is absolutely dreadful) the turnover rate for their serving staff is astronomical. The manager knows me as an acquaintance and every time I ask about it she tells me that the people she hires are unreliable and pretty much eventually don't want to come in and bust their *** to make their pay, they'd rather sit on their butts and be lazy. She in turn doesn't offer them the better shifts (why would she) and they complain about how much money they don't make.

Why is she obligated to put poorer performing servers in the prime time slots for the restaurant? Why should she not be allowed to decide how to best serve her customers?

The entire Presidency of Obama is all I need to provide as evidence. Uhh I read about the uhhh economy uhhh in a book once.

I have no idea what you are even talking about now.

So are we redefining dead end jobs for feels now? Are we also redefining "decent" money? No? Ok.

Missouri student VP: 'I'm tired of people using the first amendment to say whatever they want'.

Congrats liberals, you successfully coddled the next generation into a generation of fascists.

Oh, another attack on an ideology right? You can't even post the entire quote so the context is understood. Swing and a miss.

I'd be interested in seeing that actual context of the complaint instead of a pair of selective quotes in an editorial article clearly dismissive of academia.