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Random Politics & Religion #00
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:36:16
Actually we have a bad habit of ignoring the severe lack of mental healthcare treatment, severe levels of poverty and it's relationship to crime, and our entire prison system being royally ***.
Apologies, that was said with severity though looking back it did come across as sarcastic. I was implying America as a nation is very good at a turning a blind eye to things.
Oh hey, I got the 1000th page. Suck it, ***!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:36:22
Can you prove that a significant portion of these gun murderers were legal owners of said guns prior to their usage? I would say that less than 20% of all gun murders were done by people with legal ownership of said gun and had legal ownership for more than a year. Possibly less than 10%.
You can say what you like but until you can prove it those are just numbers you pulled out your arse. Given your obvious pro-gun agenda, one can assume that your estimates are erring lower, also. You made the assertion that gun murders happen because of easy access to guns. Since the only easy access one can have is to go through the long and painful process to legally own a gun, you are asserting that these murderers had these guns for a while.
I'm asking you to prove your assertion. I'm under no obligation to prove it for you.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:37:06
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
What's to discuss here? The result of mass shootings is a complex byproduct of American gun fetishry, guns available in bloat, mental illnesses, hyperpartisan behavior, criminal behavior and on and on.
What's gun control going to do? Make ***worse, pushing guns into a dark undermarket.
What's more guns going to do? Probably wind up in escalating alot of incidents that would have gone to blows.
If someone has a quick answer to gun massacres in the US, please reveal it because the left/right push/pull is just a symptom that no one really has an answer. Quick answer? I don't have one, but we have been analyzing the behaviors of the mass murderers for a while. One such item to note is the notion of publicizing said murders lead to copycat murders. Suicide-by-cop so to say. We can probably deter a good portion (not all, not most, but more than a few) of these murders if we didn't publicize such behavior.
That requires a restructure of the 24 hour news network though...
Networks aren't going to pass up on money.
I think the polarized state of the nation and the deteriorating discourse in our country is to blame for alot of these shootings. Many of these guys are amped on the doom n gloom and the disrespect we show one another across the left/right spectrum is seeding the grounds for a schism that will become impossible to bridge.
The economic reality of many Americans isn't helping either. I don't think that these murders were caused for political reasons.
Religious reasons, possibly, probably. Political, highly unlikely.
Unless you go to a Democrat rally and shoot the people there, it's nearly impossible to target people of a specific political side.
It's not about targeting specific people. It's about listening to AMERICA IS DEAD speech all day and going off the deep end like a number of these shooters have. White supremacist trash and talk radio fear fueled at least two mass murderers. It's only amplified by mental illness. Look at the uptic in sovereign citizens.
If their journals are to be believed.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:38:07
You made the assertion that gun murders happen because of easy access to guns. Since the only easy access one can have is to go through the long and painful process to legally own a gun, you are asserting that these murderers had these guns for a while.
I'm asking you to prove your assertion. I'm under no obligation to prove it for you.
I pointed out the percentages you quoted were *** which until you provide a source they are. I don't need to prove that gun crime is higher because you have easier access to guns. I really don't. Watch the news once in awhile.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:45:14
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I would just be happy if we started by outlawing civilians from owning assault rifles. Why?
Because you can kill a lot more people with an assault rifle that has no business being in your hands, than hand guns?
It doesn't matter that people will still die because you have already reduced the danger to society. Less people will still die than before.
You go after their number one weapon of choice Yeah, no. You realize that there's nothing you can really do to prevent them 100% and get over it.
You do realize it isn't ever about stopping anything 100% right?
What sort of backwards logic is this?
It's not backwards.
As for "assault rifles" yeah, people generally don't have those, but I have no problem with them actually having them.
We're going in circles at this point, we were having a nice period too.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:48:20
According to the constitution? Certainly.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:49:37
You made the assertion that gun murders happen because of easy access to guns. Since the only easy access one can have is to go through the long and painful process to legally own a gun, you are asserting that these murderers had these guns for a while.
I'm asking you to prove your assertion. I'm under no obligation to prove it for you.
I pointed out the percentages you quoted were *** which until you provide a source they are. I don't need to prove that gun crime is higher because you have easier access to guns. I really don't. Watch the news once in awhile. My personal thoughts (which have more weight here since we are talking about US gun murders, which you, as a foreign national, have little access to understand) on the matter were that. I didn't say "It is a certainty that less than 20% of gun murders were done with legally obtained guns." In fact, I honestly believe that the amount is much less than that, I was erring on the side of conservative estimation.
But since you are so demanding:
Quote: 93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).
( Source) Abet an pro-gun one, but this does back it's findings with an actual source.
Also, this involves all gun crimes, not just murders. But I think we can reasonably assume that the number of legally obtained guns used for murders is less than 10%.
 Bahamut.Omael
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-10-02 10:51:03
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Where is the line?
Should people be allowed to own RPGs? LAWs? .50 cals?
.50's aren't cheap, but if you can afford one, here you go.
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:51:14
According to the constitution? Certainly.
They had RPGs and 50 cals in the 1700s? ***, Washington deserves that 6star general title for beating back the British with horses, bayonets and Mel Gibson.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:51:53
My personal thoughts (which have more weight here since we are talking about US gun murders, which you, as a foreign national, have little access to understand) on the matter were that.
We're done. That's just *** rude. Blocked.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:52:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »According to the constitution? Certainly.
They had RPGs and 50 cals in the 1700s? ***, Washington deserves that 6star general title for beating back the British with horses, bayonets and Mel Gibson. Really? That's the argument you want to make?
Certainly the people who wrote the Constitution weren't learned men or aware of how technology improves, or were entirely ignorant of history and weapons.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-10-02 10:52:45
Again, I don't think anyone is denying that either. But that doesn't mean that the number of murders will automatically go down by the amount of gun-related murders if we ban all guns, it means that people will find an alternative method to kill people regardless of what weapon is used.
I was backreading and saw this and actually, yes, it does go down. Gun related crime (specifically gun related murders) goes waay down when you limit access to them, just look at Australia.
People will have a much harder time killing others and there will still be murders, just less people killed overall since it's more difficult to kill many at once.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:52:54
My personal thoughts (which have more weight here since we are talking about US gun murders, which you, as a foreign national, have little access to understand) on the matter were that.
We're done. That's just *** rude. Blocked. Don't like it when I proved you wrong, got it.
Good to know you too.
Besides, my point was that you don't know the overall feeling of the nation if you never have taken a step on the soil. You obviously didn't know a thing about the process it takes to own a gun legally, so it's obvious you never been to America in your life. How can you have an opinion on the number of people who legally owned a gun at the time of murder if you don't even know how hard it is to own a gun in the first place?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:54:09
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »Again, I don't think anyone is denying that either. But that doesn't mean that the number of murders will automatically go down by the amount of gun-related murders if we ban all guns, it means that people will find an alternative method to kill people regardless of what weapon is used.
I was backreading and saw this and actually, yes, it does go down. Gun related crime goes waay down when you limit access to them, just look at Australia. Was my point.
Will it go down? Yes, because it will be harder to murder, and less people will die. Overall murders (not based by number of people died, but the attempt itself)? Probably not change much.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-10-02 10:56:42
I'll admit I did miss the 'gun related murders' part of the post but overall deaths will decrease significantly if guns are limited and I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.
We still have gun crime over here (and a few million guns with a population of 10 million, though most are hunting rifles and the rest belong to the military) but it's still such a low amount
People who break into houses don't have guns so you don't have to worry about being shot, muggers don't have guns etc
The only ones with guns are people in gangs or very hardened criminals who rob jewelry stores or armored cars.
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By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:57:25
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Time to amend the amendment to make more sense. Like hey we don't need .50 cals in peoples homes. I'll pass, it makes perfect sense as it is. I see no reason not to have them.
Quite frankly if anyone literally attempted to repeal that amendment, they should be tried for treason.
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By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:57:54
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »I'll admit I did miss the 'gun related murders' part of the post but overall deaths will decrease significantly if guns are limited and I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Because our rights are more important than our lives.
Edit: and before anyone accuses me of not respecting life again, just don't. I have a great respect for life, (as most of you know I'm very anti-CP and please let's not get into that derail) just that there are things that people should be willing to die for, freedom should be one of those.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:58:04
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »I'll admit I did miss the 'gun related murders' part of the post but overall deaths will decrease significantly if guns are limited and I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that. Nobody would, but it still doesn't solve the problem on the number of events.
Just because less people died to the same amount of events doesn't mean that we solved anything to be honest.
 Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-10-02 10:58:38
Because our rights are more important than our lives.
yes sir.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:59:04
I have Mosin +1ing me, is it the twilight zone?
When's my lunch getting here?
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-10-02 11:00:15
I have Mosin +1ing me, is it the twilight zone?
When's my lunch getting here?
I can put aside our differences when you're the only sane one in the room.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 11:02:41
/pours
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-10-02 11:03:04
Molding society to accommodate crazy & stupid people will absolutely be our undoing.
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Server: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 11:03:28
Molding society to accommodate crazy & stupid people will absolutely be our undoing. Welcome to the legislation of feels.
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By Aeyela 2015-10-02 11:04:01
Because our rights are more important than our lives.
Edit: and before anyone accuses me of not respecting life again, just don't. I have a great respect for life, (as most of you know I'm very anti-CP and please let's not get into that derail) just that there are things that people should be willing to die for, freedom should be one of those.
But it's not you dying for it. It's other people. And it shouldn't be your choice to make.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-10-02 11:05:38
we stopped caring what you brits thought 200+ years ago!
:D
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