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U.S. Climate Has Already Changed, Study Finds
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:32:15
Quote: Publicists at the United Nations, Mr. Al Gore, and their supporters frequently claim that only a few “skeptics” remain – skeptics who are still unconvinced about the existence of a catastrophic human-caused global warming emergency.
It is evident that 31,487 Americans with university degrees in science – including 9,029 PhDs, are not "a few." Moreover, from the clear and strong petition statement that they have signed, it is evident that these 31,487 American scientists are not “skeptics.”
These scientists are instead convinced that the human-caused global warming hypothesis is without scientific validity and that government action on the basis of this hypothesis would unnecessarily and counterproductively damage both human prosperity and the natural environment of the Earth. 
There is no verification required to confirm these people have a science background or anything. Not really sure how well they check the credentials on that. But you can google each name separately. I'm definitely not Googling 31,000 names, lol.
I think the minimum requirement though is a verified bachelor's degree in any field of science.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
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Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-05-10 13:32:16
Wow, TV weather forecasters who require little to no scientific training have an opinion on something they aren't qualified to comment on. Good for them.
I have two degrees in Evolution and Ecology. When can I start advising NASA on their next space mission?
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:34:52
It's not a scare tactic if what he advocates is demonstrably true. Your own link explains that he made his money from investments in technology. Why do you hate capitalism? I'm a huge advocate of real capitalism. Not state-forced capitalism as someone put it before.
Demonstratively true, how so? I just skimmed over 6 pages of people who could not agree on what sets of data to use, never mind prove it to be demonstratively true.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-05-10 13:35:08
I don't have a good argument...therefore name calling. Classic. At least Kara looked at the sources and picked them part. This guy Milamber, very aggressive right off the bat.
You truly are an idiot.
Edit:idiot is probably too harsh; there are many others that possibly deserve the title at least as much.
self-aggrandizing, attention seeking, and willfully ignorant/obtuse probably do apply. Well you certainly convinced me.
Grid efficiency, is an amazing thing. It is if they ever did it. Instead they just invent carbon credits, make a ton of money and call it green.
You declared that Al Gore scammed people, presumably due to promoting environmentalism/climate change.
The article you quoted tries to loosely associate spending money on a smart grid as promoting green technology, when environmentalism is one of the lesser contributing factors to establishing a smart grid, as it doesn't give a particularly give a preferential damn what the relative power source is, but allows better utlization/load balancing and distribtion of power, among other fairly important benefits.
Your quote attempts to link provding money to upgrade the power grid as part of environmentalism, and then you make the declaration that "Al Gore scammed you guys good". Which is blatantly untrue, in the context of the information you yourself provided.
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:36:31
Wow, TV weather forecasters who require little to no scientific training have an opinion on something they aren't qualified to comment on. Good for them.
I have two degrees in Evolution and Ecology. When can I start advising NASA on their next space mission? What degree would you consider them to posses that would make them qualified then?
By Jetackuu 2014-05-10 13:38:48
Wow, TV weather forecasters who require little to no scientific training have an opinion on something they aren't qualified to comment on. Good for them.
I have two degrees in Evolution and Ecology. When can I start advising NASA on their next space mission? 
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-05-10 13:40:29
Quote: Publicists at the United Nations, Mr. Al Gore, and their supporters frequently claim that only a few “skeptics” remain – skeptics who are still unconvinced about the existence of a catastrophic human-caused global warming emergency.
It is evident that 31,487 Americans with university degrees in science – including 9,029 PhDs, are not "a few." Moreover, from the clear and strong petition statement that they have signed, it is evident that these 31,487 American scientists are not “skeptics.”
These scientists are instead convinced that the human-caused global warming hypothesis is without scientific validity and that government action on the basis of this hypothesis would unnecessarily and counterproductively damage both human prosperity and the natural environment of the Earth.
There is no verification required to confirm these people have a science background or anything. Not really sure how well they check the credentials on that. But you can google each name separately. I'm definitely not Googling 31,000 names, lol.
I think the minimum requirement though is a verified bachelor's degree in any field of science.
The information provided is insufficient to verify any of the degrees listed by any reasonable measure; it isn't unreasonable to assume that no such verification step has been performed.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:42:50
I don't have a good argument...therefore name calling. Classic. At least Kara looked at the sources and picked them part. This guy Milamber, very aggressive right off the bat.
You truly are an idiot.
Edit:idiot is probably too harsh; there are many others that possibly deserve the title at least as much.
self-aggrandizing, attention seeking, and willfully ignorant/obtuse probably do apply. Well you certainly convinced me.
Grid efficiency, is an amazing thing. It is if they ever did it. Instead they just invent carbon credits, make a ton of money and call it green.
You declared that Al Gore scammed people, presumably due to promoting environmentalism/climate change.
The article you quoted tries to loosely associate spending money on a smart grid as promoting green technology, when environmentalism is one of the lesser contributing factors to establishing a smart grid, as it doesn't give a particularly give a preferential damn what the relative power source is, but allows better utlization/load balancing and distribtion of power, among other fairly important benefits.
Your quote attempts to link provding money to upgrade the power grid as part of environmentalism, and then you make the declaration that "Al Gore scammed you guys good". Which is blatantly untrue, in the context of the information you yourself provided. Al Gore made his money. Where exactly has the power grid been updated?
Definitely not in New York, New York City, or in New Jersey.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:43:27
Hurricane Sandy showed just how out of date the whole system was and still is.
Connecticut as well.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:46:41
Let's try it this way. Show me one positive thing Al Gore and his carbon credits have done for the U.S.?
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-05-10 13:51:12
It's not a scare tactic if what he advocates is demonstrably true. Your own link explains that he made his money from investments in technology. Why do you hate capitalism? I'm a huge advocate of real capitalism. Not state-forced capitalism as someone put it before.
Demonstratively true, how so? I just skimmed over 6 pages of people who could not agree on what sets of data to use, never mind prove it to be demonstratively true. The decades of corroborating research summarized in something like the link in the OP trump random forumgoer's misconceptions about statistical analysis. If you're actually looking for evidence, it's readily available to you.
Wow, TV weather forecasters who require little to no scientific training have an opinion on something they aren't qualified to comment on. Good for them.
I have two degrees in Evolution and Ecology. When can I start advising NASA on their next space mission? What degree would you consider them to posses that would make them qualified then? Qualifications can vary, but the people most qualified to comment on the climate matters, actual climatologists and others who are actively engaged in climate research, are conveniently ignored in your surveys. It's lying by omission and is incredibly dishonest.
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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Posts: 4322
By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-05-10 13:52:00
Let's try it this way. Show me one positive thing Al Gore and his carbon credits have done for the U.S.? Positive in what context?
Buying and selling carbon credits to/from other countries to keep science and technology moving forward, while still applying a certain degree of pressure to design and engineer greener technology?
Creating a market for more energy efficient products, which has sparked some competition and demand for those who like to save money long term?
Creating jobs in the Energy Efficiency Market, creating awareness, updating employee skill profiles, and education on green technology?
Using those carbon credits to offset, however minimal the effect is, on a multi-trillion dollar world debt?
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:53:12
Donating 100% of your profits from the sale of your book to spread your message only counts if you have that cult mentality.
It's need to be something tangible that has improved the environment, or the power grid even.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-05-10 13:54:03
climate change is a fascist conspiracy thought up by gay atheists....I might be getting my threads mixed up.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:54:15
It's not a scare tactic if what he advocates is demonstrably true. Your own link explains that he made his money from investments in technology. Why do you hate capitalism? I'm a huge advocate of real capitalism. Not state-forced capitalism as someone put it before.
Demonstratively true, how so? I just skimmed over 6 pages of people who could not agree on what sets of data to use, never mind prove it to be demonstratively true. The decades of corroborating research summarized in something like the link in the OP trump random forumgoer's misconceptions about statistical analysis. If you're actually looking for evidence, it's readily available to you.
Wow, TV weather forecasters who require little to no scientific training have an opinion on something they aren't qualified to comment on. Good for them.
I have two degrees in Evolution and Ecology. When can I start advising NASA on their next space mission? What degree would you consider them to posses that would make them qualified then? Qualifications can vary, but the people most qualified to comment on the climate matters, actual climatologists and others who are actively engaged in climate research, are conveniently ignored in your surveys. It's lying by omission and is incredibly dishonest. I didn't do the surveys, lol.
By fonewear 2014-05-10 13:55:14
Let's try it this way. Show me one positive thing Al Gore and his carbon credits have done for the U.S.?
Provided South Park with some good episodes of TV.
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By fonewear 2014-05-10 13:56:05
climate change is a fascist conspiracy thought up by gay atheists....I might be getting my threads mixed up.
Gay atheist says climate change has made it hard to find a lover.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-05-10 13:56:30
I didn't do the surveys, lol. You linked them to support a point, no?
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 13:58:30
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Let's try it this way. Show me one positive thing Al Gore and his carbon credits have done for the U.S.? Positive in what context?
Buying and selling carbon credits to/from other countries to keep science and technology moving forward, while still applying a certain degree of pressure to design and engineer greener technology?
Creating a market for more energy efficient products, which has sparked some competition and demand for those who like to save money long term?
Creating jobs in the Energy Efficiency Market, creating awareness, updating employee skill profiles, and education on green technology?
Using those carbon credits to offset, however minimal the effect is, on a multi-trillion dollar world debt? So awareness, jobs in manufacturing (which causes more pollution), saving money, and education.
While that may be positive to the consumer, it doesn't do anything for the environment.
Unless someone who received some education, actually did something with that education and has now found a way to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere. Or even just reduce the amount of CO2 and CH4 being released from industry.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 14:00:21
I didn't do the surveys, lol. You linked them to support a point, no? The point was to question the statement made on the first page:
I'll point out that every scientist who has ever spoken out against Global Warming, a group representing 8% of the community, has been traced directly back to Koch Industries. It seems like it might be more than 8%. Not sure how many are linked to Koch.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-05-10 14:03:55
I don't have a good argument...therefore name calling. Classic. At least Kara looked at the sources and picked them part. This guy Milamber, very aggressive right off the bat.
You truly are an idiot.
Edit:idiot is probably too harsh; there are many others that possibly deserve the title at least as much.
self-aggrandizing, attention seeking, and willfully ignorant/obtuse probably do apply. Well you certainly convinced me.
Grid efficiency, is an amazing thing. It is if they ever did it. Instead they just invent carbon credits, make a ton of money and call it green.
You declared that Al Gore scammed people, presumably due to promoting environmentalism/climate change.
The article you quoted tries to loosely associate spending money on a smart grid as promoting green technology, when environmentalism is one of the lesser contributing factors to establishing a smart grid, as it doesn't give a particularly give a preferential damn what the relative power source is, but allows better utlization/load balancing and distribtion of power, among other fairly important benefits.
Your quote attempts to link provding money to upgrade the power grid as part of environmentalism, and then you make the declaration that "Al Gore scammed you guys good". Which is blatantly untrue, in the context of the information you yourself provided. Al Gore made his money. Where exactly has the power grid been updated?
You are also making the assumption that he made money off of this.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-05-10 14:05:15
Zicdeh also corrected himself and linked a figure that says specifically "climate and earth scientists".
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 14:06:58
My personal belief, which you all can criticize, is this:
Is global whatever real? No idea.
Do people (politicians and scientists) who go on about global whatever think it's real? I don't think they care unless they can profit from it.
Do they use that money to make a difference to the actual environment? Not that I've seen.
What is the real problem? Pollution, oil spills, pipeline bursts, fracking, ozone depletion, poisoning drinking water. Unfortunately there is too much money in industries that lobby to allow these things to go no matter what laws are passed or what science is telling them.
[+]
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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Posts: 4322
By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-05-10 14:07:06
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Let's try it this way. Show me one positive thing Al Gore and his carbon credits have done for the U.S.? Positive in what context?
Buying and selling carbon credits to/from other countries to keep science and technology moving forward, while still applying a certain degree of pressure to design and engineer greener technology?
Creating a market for more energy efficient products, which has sparked some competition and demand for those who like to save money long term?
Creating jobs in the Energy Efficiency Market, creating awareness, updating employee skill profiles, and education on green technology?
Using those carbon credits to offset, however minimal the effect is, on a multi-trillion dollar world debt? So awareness, jobs in manufacturing (which causes more pollution), saving money, and education.
While that may be positive to the consumer, it doesn't do anything for the environment.
Unless someone who received some education, actually did something with that education and has now found a way to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere. Or even just reduce the amount of CO2 and CH4 being released from industry.
So you already see that awareness as a negative thing, when it's in fact, positive. You said for the U.S., and not for the environment. I asked for a context, which I posted a few, that ultimately reduce energy consumption, changes the type of manufacturing being done, and has already seen a positive impact on the environment, by creating technology that uses bio-degradable products, that limit the impact on the environment.
Education and awareness are already being put to use, since there's a story already about a Canadian University and it's students creating a vehicle that could potentially traverse across the majority of the US (from New Jersey to, I think it was somewhere in California) on a single gallon of a gasoline equivalent.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-10 14:09:50
I didn't do the surveys, lol. You linked them to support a point, no? The point was to question the statement made on the first page:
Quote: I'll point out that every scientist who has ever spoken out against Global Warming, a group representing 8% of the community, has been traced directly back to Koch Industries. It seems like it might be more than 8%. Not sure how many are linked to Koch.
Like all surveys, it depends on the sample size.
The one in particular I'm citing is a survey of approximately 350,000 Scientists from around the globe, and 30,000 of them deny global warming.
Actually, more accurately they take the less ridiculous stance of believing global warming is not impacted significantly by human activity, because simple data shows the planet is in fact heating up. But the geological record also suggests we're at the tail end of an ice age, so that's not exactly unexpected.
The big threat in the end, isn't that the planet will become a broiling Venusian hothouse, but that even the minor warm-up will cause the ocean currents to change, which drives the winds and weather of the planet. We've relied so long on the fairly predictable weather patterns, things like where Tornadoes and Hurricanes strike, what places are more subject to drought, torrential rains, yadda yadda. We've built our entire civilization for the past 200 years on this knowledge. Surely you can see the ramifications of that data no longer being accurate.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 14:11:09
Zicdeh also corrected himself and linked a figure that says specifically "climate and earth scientists". Oh yeah I see it now.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 14:14:12
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »creating technology that uses bio-degradable products, that limit the impact on the environment.
Canadian University and it's students creating a vehicle that could potentially traverse across the majority of the US (from New Jersey to, I think it was somewhere in California) on a single gallon of a gasoline equivalent. Ok now we're talking. That's definitely a start.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-10 14:17:54
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »creating technology that uses bio-degradable products, that limit the impact on the environment.
Canadian University and it's students creating a vehicle that could potentially traverse across the majority of the US (from New Jersey to, I think it was somewhere in California) on a single gallon of a gasoline equivalent. Ok now we're talking. That's definitely a start. in the "Sustainable" realm. Although if you really think about it, I think it's fairly easy to poke holes in the concept. (Cost of Maintenance for example)
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-10 14:20:13
Are carbon credits a scam to make Al Gore rich? Yes.
Do carbon credits themselves do any good? As far as I can see it a lazy way to pass the buck. Unless your passing that money to a company that directly reduces pollution in the air or to the environment.
Bloodrose pointed out an example on that.
But to what extent have these credits worked?
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-05-10 14:26:17
Are carbon credits a scam to make Al Gore rich? Yes.
Do carbon credits themselves do any good? As far as I can see it a lazy way to pass the buck. Unless your passing that money to a company that directly reduces pollution in the air or to the environment.
Bloodrose pointed out an example on that.
But to what extent have these credits worked? You define them as a scam, then ask if they worked, despite being given an example of how they did?
Edit> Or to what extent they have worked, rather than simply if
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/science/earth/climate-change-report.html?_r=3
A very extensive report, known as the National Climate Assessment, was released earlier this week. Nothing in the report is particularly surprising, but its presentation for the general public, here, is incredibly impressive. (Not all government website releases are a disaster!)
If hardcore technical reports aren't your thing, the highlights portion of the site breaks each section down as plainly as possible, is extensively cited, and makes no secret the level of uncertainty inherent in current findings. The site is really quite fantastic, and I would encourage anyone with genuine interest, skepticism, and/or curiosity in U.S. climate change to fuck around in it for a while. (Of course, if well-substantiated, easily digestible scientific communications aren't your thing, there's always this.)
Perhaps, the most poignant message arising from the report is summarized in this quote from the article:
Quote: The report pointed out that while the country as a whole still had no comprehensive climate legislation, many states and cities had begun to take steps to limit emissions and to adapt to climatic changes that can no longer be avoided. But the report found that these efforts were inadequate. I don't really consider myself a policy person so... what do?
Edit: Also of note is the high diversity of those involved. Largely scientists, of course, but representative of a wide swath of interests, including some oil companies.
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