Red Mage Shield Skill

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Red Mage Shield Skill
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-05 02:38:40
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RDM has a Shield Skill rating of F, putting us at a cap of 265 whereas PLD has 424(A+), and WAR has 378(C+). I believe since we have Beatific, and are likely getting a new HQ/119 version of it in this upcoming update, I think it only fair for RDM to finally get an increase in its Shield Skill.

Why post this here? Simple, I made a thread over on the official forums about this very topic/issue, however those forums are not nearly as active as the forums here. SE recently has seemed quite a bit more open with some feedback and requests they have gotten, and to my amazement, they even gave us RDMs two great daggers after someone asked for them, though admittedly it did take a few months, they actually did it. SE has also recently given us a great deal of melee gear, so far as I know some of it is even brand new gear and not simply old designs such as the osmium cuisses.

SE has been showing a more open mind with RDM on the frontlines once again, and these days, I am sure no one could really believe that even with an increase to our skill that we would even come close to PLD, especially with the commonality of Aegis and Ochain these days.

So with all of that said, I would like to believe making this request of them is not a wasted effort, and as such, would like to ask that fellow RDMs who agree with a change for RDM Shield Skill from F rank to at least a C+, or a more preferable B rank, please show support on the official forums with a Like, a Post, or both.
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 04:22:19
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Rdm doesnt need a lot of shield skill its got a lot of defensive spells as it is. At least this isnt a give rdm cure V thread.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-05 04:35:31
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RDM has defensive spells, yes, but why exactly does that negate the need for the skill to be enhanced? When it comes to defensive spells we have roughly the exact same arsenal that a PLD/RUN would have, the notable exceptions being Spike Spells, which are very easily countered by Reprisal since it increases a PLD's block rate even if it can not be full timed or cause Paralyze, and an extra tier of Shell.

If you are talking about Enfeebling Spells as well as Enhancing Spells for defense then yes, a RDM has a lot going for it by compare to something like PLD. That being said, this relies on constantly keeping up these spells which can be difficult without the ability to block, where as a PLD is almost never interrupted by compare thanks to blocking. Also the most useful of Enfeebling Spells are random duration spells, and the most useful one of all for defense, Paralyze, is random on when it procs, which makes it very hard to plan around or count on when needed.

So why should the fact RDM has these minor advantages in defenses negate the need for a skill increase, especially when PLD also has an arsenal of Job Abilities which protect it as well and give it hate where as RDM has nothing of the sort?
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 05:14:04
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Plds need ochain to have the kind of block rate you are suggesting and any pld without ochain or aegis is going to have under 40% block rate. Apart from pro/shell pld only really has are 2 defensive spells which are phalanx and reprisal rdm on the other hand gets SS, blink, phalanx, aquaveil, all the barspells, bio, blind, para, slow and silence Apart from the fact rdm doesnt get much in the way of enmity generation so you wont really be tanking much unless you are solo. So far solo stuff theres a lot of shield skill equip you can use you up your block rate and most enfeebles will generally land.

So the gear I can think off off the top of my head.
+72 on beatfic shield as well as the increased rate it has on it.
+10 from boxers mantle.
+3 from shielding earring.
+7 from shield torque
+w/e from Af119 piece.

Thats a minimum of 357 shield skill.

You also seem to be missing the very obvious fact that pld is a tank while rdm isnt.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-05 05:50:05
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Ochain and Aegis are both fairly common for PLD to have nowadays, but even ignoring them, between Reprisal, Palisade, and the insanely better Shield Skill that PLD possesses, their block rate should be quite a bit higher than 40% I'm sure, especially when Beatific is available to PLD no different than it is for RDM, and provides all of the same boosts.

Also you ignore the lack of any Job Abilities for defense on RDM, the lack of any Defense Traits, the lack of Shield Def. Bonus, and are completely ignoring any subjobs that could provided things that actually help PLD in the same way as those spells you pointed out RDM has such as RUN, SCH, WHM, or just RDM.



So far as increasing RDM's Shield skill.

Base Skill of 265.
Beatific Shield for 72.
Atrophy Boots +1 for 13.
Shield Torque for 7.
Shield Belt(with sub PLD) for 5.
Testudo Mantle +1 for 11.
Portus Annulet for 5.
Buckler Earring for 3.
Knight's Earring for 5.

That is every piece of Shield Skill gear that does not require augments for RDM, and when you add all of that up and you get a grand total of 386, with all of that very specific gear, a specific subjob. What does this mean? Simple, even with the maximum possible Shield Skill set, a RDM barely beats out a capped skill naked WAR, RDM literally wins out by a whole 8 skill.

Keep in mind, WAR's primary weapons are 2-handed weapons, whereas RDM's highest skill and most common weapons for frontline combat are actually Swords and Daggers, single handed weapons, and the job has no native Dual Wield, implying that a Shield should be in its off-hand generally.



As for RDM not being a tank. I fail to see where I said it was. I mean, I am sure by that same respect many people would tell me that RDM isn't a DD. At the same time, I can go look at all of our new 119 weapons, our item level armors, our self targeting spells like Phalanx, En-spells, or Temper, and our B rank Sword and Dagger skills that basically point to RDM being a job meant to fight on the frontlines. RDM isn't a tank, but neither is BST, they get an E rank, or WHM even, who has a D rank, one could even say WAR isn't a tank, and they have a C+, which is what I asked for at the very least. Even if its not our generally accepted role, why exactly should our Shield Skill be a pitiful F?
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 06:26:07
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This is getting silly now your main arguement is rdm vs pld one job is a tank which revolves around using a shield 99% of the time and the other is a healer/support/enfeebler/nuker. The reason aegis and ochain are so common is that they are pretty much needed to play pld seriously. Can a non aegis/ochain pld do ok? Yes they can but having those two shields is vastly superior. On high end stuff even an aegis pld is lucky to break 60% and that has a higher block rate than size 3 shields obviously the lower down you go the higher the block rate is.

Right JAs and JTs they are there to help enhance the jobs role since plds role is tanking they dont get any DD JTs or JAs nor do they get any casting JAs or JTs. Rdm get casting JTs/JAs to enhance their jobs role as healer/support/enfeebler/nuker. The only way for either job to get any DD traits, casting(pld) or tanking(rdm) is through sub jobs. Which you pick greatly depends on whats going in at the time so this isnt always a static thing which is why I never mentioned them.

As for you saying its a tank this whole thread is about it. Why do you need more shield skill if you arent tanking? If the mob isnt hitting you arent blocking therefore the extra shield skill you are requesting is useless. I get that you rdms are the outcasts atm but requesting a buff like this that will do nothing for the job to fill a role is stupid. You are better off requesting new spells or JAs/JTs to make enfeebling/enhancing more effective.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-05 07:05:25
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
This is getting silly now your main arguement is rdm vs pld one job is a tank which revolves around using a shield 99% of the time and the other is a healer/support/enfeebler/nuker. The reason aegis and ochain are so common is that they are pretty much needed to play pld seriously. Can a non aegis/ochain pld do ok? Yes they can but having those two shields is vastly superior. On high end stuff even an aegis pld is lucky to break 60% and that has a higher block rate than size 3 shields obviously the lower down you go the higher the block rate is.
Yes, and it is for that reason that I was making the point RDM will never out do a PLD, PLD can smash RDM in this category, that is obvious. No, my argument isn't really isn't so much RDM vs PLD its that you brought up that the reason RDM does not need more Shield Skill is due to the fact it has other defenses. My point was that its not as though this makes RDM equal or even close in terms of defensive power, PLD crushes RDM in defensive power, thats obvious, so saying that RDM has more defenses than just shield does not negate the need for RDM's Shield Skill to be increased.

Quote:
Right JAs and JTs they are there to help enhance the jobs role since plds role is tanking they dont get any DD JTs or JAs nor do they get any casting JAs or JTs. Rdm get casting JTs/JAs to enhance their jobs role as healer/support/enfeebler/nuker. The only way for either job to get any DD traits, casting(pld) or tanking(rdm) is through sub jobs. Which you pick greatly depends on whats going in at the time so this isnt always a static thing which is why I never mentioned them.
RDM has a little bit of everything in the job's arsenal to some extent. RDM has a ton of magic based traits and a wide range of spells for it to cast, thus its can use magic. RDM has B rank skill in two weapon types which is above average, as well as a lot of light DD gear and self target spells that boost its offensive power, thus it can melee. RDM has Shield Master, access to many T1, T2, and some T3 shields, including one of the best non-R/E Shields in the game at this time, as well as spells such as Phalanx and Bar-spells which boost its defensive power, thus it can tank.

RDMs are not meant to do just 1 thing, the entire job design is based on being able to fit multiple roles, it is only the fact that in this game that hardly ever has a use that pushes RDM into a backline spot, the 1 spot it actually has certain things it excels at anymore. So to say that RDM only gets any tanking traits through a sub job is not correct, RDM has clearly tanking features to the job, in fact, it is the only job in the entire game besides PLD with native access to any level of Shield Mastery, please explain why you believe RDM has this trait when at the same time you seem to think RDM is not meant to use a shield.

Quote:
As for you saying its a tank this whole thread is about it. Why do you need more shield skill if you arent tanking? If the mob isnt hitting you arent blocking therefore the extra shield skill you are requesting is useless. I get that you rdms are the outcasts atm but requesting a buff like this that will do nothing for the job to fill a role is stupid. You are better off requesting new spells or JAs/JTs to make enfeebling/enhancing more effective.
I ask for many changes to the job and even to its gear in some cases, it's not as though this is the only request I have ever made, far from it. The thing is, this is an issue I find rather annoying for the job because it makes no sense to me that they would give the job so much to use a Shield, but at the same time give it literally the most pathetic amount of skill possible.

When it comes down to tanking, you seem to misunderstand why I am saying something about it. I did not say RDM is a tank, at that same time, I did not say I do not tank on RDM, that I do not want to, or that I do not try to. I am not stupid nor insane enough to try to tank Ark Angels or anything of the sort on RDM, likely I would exclusively try to tank something like the WKs, possibly SKCNMs. The point is not that RDM is or is not a tank, but rather that it has almost everything needed for tanking, and could actually do the job be it a dedicated tank or not, the simple fact of the matter is that it lacks the skill and nothing more.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 07:20:07
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Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
RDM has defensive spells, yes, but why exactly does that negate the need for the skill to be enhanced? When it comes to defensive spells we have roughly the exact same arsenal that a PLD/RUN would have, the notable exceptions being Spike Spells, which are very easily countered by Reprisal since it increases a PLD's block rate even if it can not be full timed or cause Paralyze, and an extra tier of Shell.
That's a contradiction in terms. Something can not be Roughly(meaning approximately, or about) the same while also being exactly the same. Sorry to nitpick, but that just annoyed me. <,< Also, PLD/RUN doesn't get stoneskin.

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
If you are talking about Enfeebling Spells as well as Enhancing Spells for defense then yes, a RDM has a lot going for it by compare to something like PLD. That being said, this relies on constantly keeping up these spells which can be difficult without the ability to block, where as a PLD is almost never interrupted by compare thanks to blocking. Also the most useful of Enfeebling Spells are random duration spells, and the most useful one of all for defense, Paralyze, is random on when it procs, which makes it very hard to plan around or count on when needed.
1: RDM Has the ability to block. Just at a lower rate than you find satisfactory(even though that rate is now higher than it's ever been for RDM.)
2:RDM should have less trouble getting interrupted than anything but an Ochain PLD. You have native Aquaviel, use it. And with 80% fastcast, there should be no issues casting most spells between hits. Unless you're tanking 20 mobs at once or something.

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
So why should the fact RDM has these minor advantages in defenses negate the
need for a skill increase, especially when PLD also has an arsenal of Job Abilities which protect it as well and give
it hate where as RDM has nothing of the sort?
Thing is, there's NOT a need for a skill increase. RDM isn't a tank, it doesn't NEED to be tougher physically to fulfill it's role(s).

Why would PLD have job abilities that protect it and help it survive...? Cause PLD is a freaking tank. Surviving whatever the mob can throw at it is PLD's job. PLD having these in no way entitles RDM to a defensive boost it has no justifiable need for.

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
Ochain and Aegis are both fairly common for PLD to have nowadays, but even ignoring them, between Reprisal, Palisade, and the insanely better Shield Skill that PLD possesses, their block rate should be quite a bit higher than 40% I'm sure, especially when Beatific is available to PLD no different than it is for RDM, and provides all of the same boosts.
Aegis' block rate on 111 mobs is 34.54%. <,< You're only going to see really high block rates on those kinda mobs with Ochain. Or to a lesser degree Beatific.

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
Also you ignore the lack of any Job Abilities for defense on RDM, the lack of any Defense Traits, the lack of Shield Def. Bonus, and are completely ignoring any subjobs that could provided things that actually help PLD in the same way as those spells you pointed out RDM has such as RUN, SCH, WHM, or just RDM.
Yep. Tank jobs get tank traits. Healer/support/enfeeblers usually don't. Except RDM did, lol. Shield mastery II. Then again, WAR has fencer, But you don't see them running around trying to single wield axes.

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
As for RDM not being a tank. I fail to see where I said it was. I mean, I am sure by that same respect many people would tell me that RDM isn't a DD. At the same time, I can go look at all of our new 119 weapons, our item level armors, our self targeting spells like Phalanx, En-spells, or Temper, and our B rank Sword and Dagger skills that basically point to RDM being a job meant to fight on the frontlines. RDM isn't a tank, but neither is BST, they get an E rank, or WHM even, who has a D rank, one could even say WAR isn't a tank, and they have a C+, which is what I asked for at the very least. Even if its not our generally accepted role, why exactly should our Shield Skill be a pitiful F?

Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
RDM has a Shield Skill rating of F, putting us at a cap of 265 whereas PLD has 424(A+), and WAR has 378(C+). I believe since we have Beatific, and are likely getting a new HQ/119 version of it in this upcoming update, I think it only fair for RDM to finally get an increase in its Shield Skill.
If you compare RDMs defensive skills to that of a dedicated tank job, and the job that was the tank when the game came out(WAR. which is when that skill rating was probably decided) and then cite that as a reason why you should have better skill, expect tanking to enter the discussion. PLD has that skill because it's entire tanking style hinges on it. And tanking is what it does.

Now why exactly does RDM need it? So you can solo old content? Was there Any old content that RDM couldn't already solo?

And sure, SE doesn't seem to mind RDM being on the frontlines... DD'ing. As shown by the addition of temper. But they sure as hell don't want RDM tanking. Which they expressed when they murdered RDM tanking back in the day by nerfing every enmity spell it had(which really sucked honestly. I really liked PLD/RDM...) With that in mind, I think it's rather unlikely that they're going to hand RDM a massive defensive buff by boosting their shield skill.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2014-02-05 07:27:08
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What exactly do you wish to do with the shield skill though, Justin? Are you taking on endgame content with RDM in frontline? I mean kudos if you are, I was pretty serious frontline/solo RDM myself though my motivation on that continuing has somewhat changed over the years.

I'll go ahead and assume you're front lining current endgame content, as I doubt you'd make a serious case about this on content RDM decimates with or without a shield (bar-exceptional instances).

This has me confused though, content, atleast for now, has moved out of Iron Giant-style of attacks, making utsusemi effective. It's pretty buried in the times now, but RDM was known (and still is, ofcourse) extremely effective with utilizing utsusemi. To the point where, for some time, it was actually the most effective tank in the entire game in almost every instance. I'm sure you know this though, which is why I'm confused. Utsusemi significantly devaluing shield skill on RDM due to the immense amount of fastcast/SiD. Utsusemi aside, /NIN offers a significant DPS boost to boot, what exactly is your setup, and how do you really wish to utilize shield skill?
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 07:37:43
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I didnt say rdms shouldnt be using shields I said they shouldnt be tanking. Though im pretty sure a rdm has better staves to equip than a one hander/shield to fulfill its main role.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-05 08:11:43
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Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: »
What exactly do you wish to do with the shield skill though, Justin? Are you taking on endgame content with RDM in frontline? I mean kudos if you are, I was pretty serious frontline/solo RDM myself though my motivation on that continuing has somewhat changed over the years.

I'll go ahead and assume you're front lining current endgame content, as I doubt you'd make a serious case about this on content RDM decimates with or without a shield (bar-exceptional instances).

This has me confused though, content, atleast for now, has moved out of Iron Giant-style of attacks, making utsusemi effective. It's pretty buried in the times now, but RDM was known (and still is, ofcourse) extremely effective with utilizing utsusemi. To the point where, for some time, it was actually the most effective tank in the entire game in almost every instance. I'm sure you know this though, which is why I'm confused. Utsusemi significantly devaluing shield skill on RDM due to the immense amount of fastcast/SiD. Utsusemi aside, /NIN offers a significant DPS boost to boot, what exactly is your setup, and how do you really wish to utilize shield skill?
I admit, using a Shield on RDM would not be a common occurrence for me and Utsusemi does better in a great deal of situations. That being said, I do almost everything in this game exclusively on RDM if given the chance and due to that fact I hate when situations come up where I lack the flexibility to fill a role that I should be able to fill, such as I feel this is.

In the event I am doing an event such as Wildskeepers, or SKCNMs, I would love the chance to tank some of these fights, and in fact, I already have on occasion, I have tanked the first 3 WKs with my standard TP set and my Beatific. However, both Hurkan and Yumcax put my RDM on the ground in no time, and I have not even tried to tank the Kamihr WK, trying to tank any of them with shadows is ineffective, trying to tank them with Beatific is possible, but the lack of blocks make their normal attacks fairly punishing, even increasing the skill would not change that much I am sure but at least it should tip the scale a little bit.

I do admit though, in the event I am fighting something 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 and the enemies are not able to easily wipe shadows, Utsusemi is clearly a superior option, the reason I want this change is because it simply isn't always the case, and I pride my RDM on its flexibility. I have built my RDM to Heal, Nuke, DD, and I would like to be able to tank a little more effectively as well, the job has been given everything required to put it in front of something as a tank besides a Shield Skill high enough to really allow it to block much of anything. While I obviously don't expect Ochain level of blocking, I think it is somewhat stupid to give the job the lowest possible skill, effectively making it impossible to put blocking to use on anything meaningful, and call it fair.

One disappointing example of something I did try to tank on RDM was when I first attempted to solo ARemnants II, the gears from the ramparts on floor 5 tore through my HP. I blocked hardly any attacks, and in the end it was actually more effective for me to just put on EVA gear than to use -DT gear and a shield because my lack of blocks alone is what caused them to rip right through me with ease. As of right now, since Espial and the other Light DD gear has become available to RDM, I have no real use for Shields, not because I do not want to use them or there is no place to use them, but because my skill is so low with them that it's not even worth the trouble at this point.

When it comes to fights like the Ark Angels on Normal or Hard, I will stick to my Dual Wield, /NIN, and Utsusemi, it is a godsend in those fights, but the fights where we see Utsusemi making its largest comeback are the revamped fights, other areas, specifically Adoulin areas, are still sticking to the AoE normal attacks for many mob types, including the most powerful ones of all, the ones most desperately in need of a tank.



So, a simple and short answer to your question of what would I use it for, I want to tank multiple enemies at once and enemies like those found in Wildskeepers, things a RDM can't really tank with Utsusemi.
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By Phoenix.Shadowlily 2014-02-05 08:16:33
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Lol this Thread trips me out. You can kind see who was in old Endgame from this. There was a point in this game where RDM could and was expected to tank in Endgame. A RDM holding/tanking Fafnir/Nidhogg was pretty common place back in the day. The job was not meant to be a back line job. The community just decided that they weren't efficient up front so forced them to play back line. RDM was supposed to = Combat mage. If played correctly you can do that still if you can find a group that will let you of course.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 08:27:39
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On Hurkan, I've seen mages tank him for extended periods just standing there in high item level nuking gear and spamming nukes. Most of Hurkan's attacks are magical, and with the amount of Magic eva mages have access to, you can resist most of them. He does have that dive melee hit that's high dmg physical though.

But regarding using shield vs hurkan... pretty pointless. The second he puts up that damn aura, you are completely prevented from blocking. So all you can get outta a shield is stats(PDT/MDT, etc.) His dive melee used to one shot my PLD when he first came out. Just couldn't do a damn thing about it. But they nerfed him at some point, so his physical melee isn't all that threatening anymore.

I'd think RDM/RUN with barthunder+runes would be pretty much immune to his magic atks. Then you just have to survive the occasional physical melee. Well, and deal with any status he manages to land. And rebuff post dispel. -.-

For mulitple mob tanking. Like you experienced, on older content evasion tanking is often more effective. But if you can't evade, or just want to take your hits, Have you tried /blu? DEF does actually matter these days. And cocoon is a lot of def+, full time.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2014-02-05 08:35:39
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Not quite, Shadowlily. While I admire the passion you seem to have for RDM, some of what you have said isn't correct.

RDM was never really expected to tank in endgame, for two reasons.

1) It isn't as friendly as PLD, wherein it would require more skill and effort, and proper use of it's tools, in some cases, to the absolute max. PLD was an easier tank to play, I mean don't get me wrong, if you didn't perform adequately, you were gonna wipe your party. But, what I mean is, there was room for mistakes thanks to decent shield skill and and PLD abilities/traits. RDM (pre-enmity nerf) was more effective than PLD in, probably just about every instance I can think of right now, but not only did it require more precision, but alot more, and I probably can't emphasize this enough, alot more high-end equipment.

2) RDM, back in those days, was an extremely powerful support role, and it was immensely desirable for this role, especially as RDM tank was never the go-to tank for reasons above, or that is was never really required to be a tank. A good PLD (or DD, mind you), could quite easily perform adequate enough under good support.

Edit: Mistakes corrected.
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By Phoenix.Shadowlily 2014-02-05 09:08:19
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Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: »
Not quite, Shadowlily. While I admire the passion you seem to have for RDM, some of what you have said isn't correct.

RDM was never really expected to tank in endgame, for two reasons.

1) It isn't as friendly as PLD, wherein it would require more skill and effort, and proper use of it's tools, in some cases, to the absolute max. PLD was an easier tank to play, I mean don't get me wrong, if you didn't perform adequately, you were gonna wipe your party. But, what I mean is, there was room for mistakes thanks to decent shield skill and and PLD abilities/traits. RDM (pre-enmity nerf) was more effective than PLD in, probably just about every instance I can think of right now, but not only did it require more precision, but alot more, and I probably can't emphasize this enough, alot more high-end equipment.

2) RDM, back in those days, was an extremely powerful support role, and it was immensely desirable for this role, especially as RDM tank was never the go-to tank for reasons above, or that is was never really required to be a tank. A good PLD (or DD, mind you), could quite easily perform adequate enough under good support.

Edit: Mistakes corrected.

Maybe is just wasn't on your server. I am saying out of all the HNMLS I was in every single one of them had a RDM tank. Spanning the 4 main servers I played on. Yes it took having good gear. Yes it took actually paying attention. But we are talking about pre "Get an ochain cast phalanx and go afk for 2 minutes". But I am getting way off my point here.

The main thing is he isn't asking to be able to out tank a PLD. He is just wanting the shield to be more than a decoration on your arm. Right now the only benefit you get is the stats on the shield itself.

A pld with JA or Reprisal up can hit about 75%+ block rate with Beatific Shield. Its a Type 1 so it blocks little dmg but MDT- is good stuff. Not asking to get a 75% block rate on rdm but being able to block more than 10% of the time would be nice.
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 09:14:49
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Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
Lol this Thread trips me out. You can kind see who was in old Endgame from this. There was a point in this game where RDM could and was expected to tank in Endgame. A RDM holding/tanking Fafnir/Nidhogg was pretty common place back in the day. The job was not meant to be a back line job. The community just decided that they weren't efficient up front so forced them to play back line. RDM was supposed to = Combat mage. If played correctly you can do that still if you can find a group that will let you of course.

As far as I remember rdms didnt rely on shield blocking to hold HNMs and were using defensive spells as much as they could. Which is why I pointed out that rdm has lots of defensive spells to compensate.
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By Emiisuzu 2014-02-05 09:22:07
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
As far as I remember rdms didnt rely on shield blocking to hold HNMs and were using defensive spells as much as they could. Which is why I pointed out that rdm has lots of defensive spells to compensate.

You are right on this one. But honestly that was a complaint from a lot of RDMs back then. Everyone wants a chance to block to get those spells off done you know lol. Like I said not wanting to be as good as a PLD but a chance to be more useful again would be nice.
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2014-02-05 09:25:50
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I never heard a single rdm, back in the day, complain about shield block rate. Most of the rdms I knew were /nin and not using a shield even when tanking, terra staff says hi,
[+]
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-05 09:26:40
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And how many of the attacks these days are actually blockable? Most WKR attacks are AoE/magical and there isn't much else that requires tanking.

I'd love to play RDM more, or at all, but it's not going to be worthwhile to swing a sword in alliance content anytime soon, and why would you want to be the weakest melee in the group?
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2014-02-05 09:59:28
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100% SiD build back in the day, who the *** needs shield blocking ;p

This was obviously pre-aquaveil adjustment, but more or less the same results can be achieved with post-updated aquaveil, more attention just needs to be paid. And you need to open up opportunities to get it back up safely, but where these days are concerned I'd hardly think that a problem to be honest.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-05 10:07:36
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Interruption is a pretty minor concern at the moment due to the slow attack speed and amount of fastcast RDM gets. You can cast in a hybrid SiD set and still have a ton of fastcast, or precast spells in like 13% quick magic as well. Chances of a well prepared RDM getting interrupted more than once or twice is pretty minimal, and you always have spontaneity if it's a clutch situation.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-02-05 11:08:22
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Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
A pld with JA or Reprisal up can hit about 75%+ block rate with Beatific Shield. Its a Type 1 so it blocks little dmg but MDT- is good stuff.

Where do these numbers come from and against what level mob? Reprisal doesn't have any good solid testing on exactly how much it affects block rate. It isn't that I doubt the number itself is possible, it's just saying that without any kind of mob level is meaningless and I'd be curious about what the estimated increase via reprisal was.
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By Phoenix.Shadowlily 2014-02-05 12:05:59
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Number comes from Mandies outside Adulin. Yes I know they are fodder type mobs. Used for holding in Delve as well and it had good block rate but didn't actually look to see how often.

I am not saying they can't function without it. But I prefer to have a sword and shield. Just my "Enjoyment" Style of playing. Only ever used /nin for solos not really for tanking. Tanking was always /drk.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 12:47:09
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Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
Number comes from Mandies outside Adulin. Yes I know they are fodder type mobs. Used for holding in Delve as well and it had good block rate but didn't actually look to see how often.

I am not saying they can't function without it. But I prefer to have a sword and shield. Just my "Enjoyment" Style of playing. Only ever used /nin for solos not really for tanking. Tanking was always /drk.
Have you seen the beatific testing over in the PLD thread? That post is of course, PLD with beatific, but I did a bit of speculation as to how RDM+beatific would perform on the same mobs. Which is probably what sparked this whole thing. <,<;

While there are potential inaccuracies, and it's not something I directly tested, I've projected RDM block rate with Beatific to be around 17% on level 111 mobs. Mandies outside adoulin are lvl 100. If you have a 17% rate on mobs 11 levels higher than the mandies, then RDM is going to have substantially higher block rate on little lvl 100 mobs. And will very likely have higher than 10% block rate on pretty much anything you'd reasonably try to tank on RDM. And of course, these values are based off of Base skill(Actually I just realized, that while the PLD tests had full merits, I didn't apply merits to RDM's skill value.) So they may be improved via skill+ gear.
Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
Not asking to get a 75% block rate on rdm but being able to block more than 10% of the time would be nice.
Your wish, has quite possibly been granted. <,<
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-05 13:14:19
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
Number comes from Mandies outside Adulin. Yes I know they are fodder type mobs. Used for holding in Delve as well and it had good block rate but didn't actually look to see how often.

I am not saying they can't function without it. But I prefer to have a sword and shield. Just my "Enjoyment" Style of playing. Only ever used /nin for solos not really for tanking. Tanking was always /drk.
Have you seen the beatific testing over in the PLD thread? That post is of course, PLD with beatific, but I did a bit of speculation as to how RDM+beatific would perform on the same mobs. Which is probably what sparked this whole thing. <,<;

While there are potential inaccuracies, and it's not something I directly tested, I've projected RDM block rate with Beatific to be around 17% on level 111 mobs. Mandies outside adoulin are lvl 100. If you have a 17% rate on mobs 11 levels higher than the mandies, then RDM is going to have substantially higher block rate on little lvl 100 mobs. And will very likely have higher than 10% block rate on pretty much anything you'd reasonably try to tank on RDM. And of course, these values are based off of Base skill(Actually I just realized, that while the PLD tests had full merits, I didn't apply merits to RDM's skill value.) So they may be improved via skill+ gear.
Phoenix.Shadowlily said: »
Not asking to get a 75% block rate on rdm but being able to block more than 10% of the time would be nice.
Your wish, has quite possibly been granted. <,<

Generally speaking, unless you can get -DT or haste on the same piece that offers shield skill, you're probably taking more damage in the long run anyway by using that piece. Even moreso when you consider the actual block dmg from most of the shields we're talking about.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 13:26:25
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Naturally. But I didn't go into gear set specifics cause I haven't the slightest idea what RDM uses for PDT these days.

Basically, its "if you want a higher block rate, here's what you can do." Whether or not doing so is worth it from a damage reductions stand point is another matter.

But beatific has fairly impressive block dmg reduction for a size 1 shield. I have it at -50% on PLD main. Although, thinking about this now, I forgot to remove 6% of that to account for the loss of shield def bonus during my rdm speculation.

So RDM should be getting -44% DMG per block with beatific.

Odin.Jassik said: »
Generally speaking, unless you can get -DT or haste on the same piece that offers shield skill, you're probably taking more damage in the long run anyway by using that piece.
But... how does haste on shield skill+ gear enter into it? While it's certainly nice to have more haste from a DPS standpoint, it's not going to make you take any less dmg. <,<
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-05 13:39:18
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You'd have to factor the loss of -DT for that slot vs the amount saved by a single block against the total block rate. Chances are, shield skill is almost never useful for RDM.

As far as haste, the longer you drag out a fight, the more damage you'll potentially take in the long run, as I don't see RDM being able to reliably tank anything that you would also put DD's on. It doesn't have enmity generating abilities and probably even lower DPS than PLD. You'd have to imagine that the RDM's damage is going to be a significant portion of the damage dealt if you plan to have RDM tank something.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 14:20:56
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Odin.Jassik said: »
You'd have to factor the loss of -DT for that slot vs the amount saved by a single block against the total block rate. Chances are, shield skill is almost never useful for RDM.
I assure you, I'm aware of how to compare the value of Shield skill to PDT.

But I'm insufficiently interested in RDM builds to to look into the PDT/skill options and do said comparisons.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if shield skill was never the optimal option in any slot for RDM. About the only piece of Skill+ gear I consider useful on PLD is rev feet+1, situationally. And they have +17 skill.

Odin.Jassik said: »
As far as haste, the longer you drag out a fight, the more damage you'll potentially take in the long run, as I don't see RDM being able to reliably tank anything that you would also put DD's on. It doesn't have enmity generating abilities and probably even lower DPS than PLD. You'd have to imagine that the RDM's damage is going to be a significant portion of the damage dealt if you plan to have RDM tank something.
While true, that's rather roundabout. Generally when we speak of dmg reduction, we mean it a bit more directly.

This is more along the lines of solo/hybrid sets, whereas I'm looking at direct damage reduction(PDT sets.)
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-05 14:33:45
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That wasn't for you, it was just a generic statement, I think it's equally or more useful to look at those as what situation will I be using this job for that role, not just what is going to reduce the damage on any particular attack round. It's a waste of time to even calculate outside of very high level solo or lowman with a couple friends.
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-02-05 15:38:42
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Hmm.. maybe I missed the part where anyone mentions why giving RDM some extra shield skill is going to affect any other job in the game in any way. As the OP has stated several times, even with extra shield skill it is still crushed by PLD in the tanking arena.

Many of RDM's unique spells (or at least ones that used to be unique) such as the enspells and phalanx suggest that the RDM was intended to melee and mitigate damage taken. Our highest combat skills are in sword and dagger (implying that a shield can and should be used in the off hand), and we have NO staff skill, something other pure mages typically have. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a higher shield skill, especially since other non-tank jobs having higher than F skill.

In this age where SE is handing out crazy upgrades like candy, why can't RDM get a little love? PLDs won't fare any worse from giving RDM a higher shield skill, nor will any other job.