Ah.
I'm mostly complaining because of the principle of the matter tho. :C
Bushido - The Way Of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
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Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
Break this down please:
Ramuh.Austar said: » it should be 1.623597 Idk why you have to write all this when you can clearly see in my post that “someone can explain it way better.” I broke down mine, point where it went wrong and move on and don’t just give numbers like that when you can literally follow every step in my post. And yes the debate was body vs body not wsd vs multi... you had wsd in multiple slots! How would this factor “bodies”? It matters because altering the total WSD changes the relative value of +multihit gear.
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1.62 is the expected average number of hits per swing on shoha.
meaning that expected average number of hits for a Shoha is going to be Note: generally believed via multitudes of testing that each of the first two hits of multi hit WS have a chance to proc a multi attack. fTP/WSD/Fotia only counts on first hit of the WS, not all hits so on Shoha @1000 TP you're expected aggregate fTP is going to be on average 1.575 + .62 + 1 + .62 = 3.815 total http://fTP. Your calculations had at base @1000 TP an aggregate fTP of 4.39. You're off by a significant margin. Edit: How Austar got to the 1.62 number and where you went wrong. You calculated MA as for example QA rate 100 * 0.03 = 3 and then you added 3, when you should have added 9. Meaning you had 9 extra attacks due to the 3% QA rate from Niqmaddu Ring. You did that for TA too, only calculated the chance of a TA proccing and not the actual number of attacks added. End Edit: So, where you went wrong: 1. calculating incorrectly fTP on multi hit weaponskill that does not replicate fTP across all hits. (This greatly skews the math toward MA) 2. calculating incorrectly total average number of hits per weaponskill. (Acutally skews in favor of WSD) 3. it became a discussion about full MA vs. WSD because you ignored WSD in all slots on the set you posted as an example Shoha set.
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Thanks for the clarification!
In regards to point (3): The initial thought was switching Dagon with Relic and i only did that in Shoha set which was built on Multi Hit from start. If WSD in Set was introduced prior then yes you're right, but It wasn't. Also your note mentioned procs on the first two hits does this mean if a QA procs on first it must be QA on second or it moves to TA? Leviathan.Katriina said: » Thanks for the clarification! In regards to point (3): The initial thought was switching Dagon with Relic and i only did that in Shoha set which was built on Multi Hit from start. If WSD in Set was introduced prior then yes you're right, but It wasn't. Also your note mentioned procs on the first two hits does this mean if a QA procs on first it must be QA on second or it moves to TA? Each of the first two hits has an independent chance to proc a MA. Also please see my edit above to explain where Austar got the 1.62 number. It's from the MA chance polynomial.
A = 1 + 3Q + 2(1-Q)T + (1-(Q+T-QT))D Q=.03 T=.19 D= .21 1+3(.03)+2(1-.03).19+(1-(.03+.19-(.03)(.19))).21 1+.09+0.3686+(1-(.22-0.0057).21 1+.09+.3686+(1-0.2143).21 1+.09+.3686+0.164997 1.623597
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Leviathan.Katriina said: » Break this down please: Ramuh.Austar said: » it should be 1.623597 Idk why you have to write all this when you can clearly see in my post that “someone can explain it way better.” I broke down mine, point where it went wrong and move on and don’t just give numbers like that when you can literally follow every step in my post. And yes the debate was body vs body not wsd vs multi... you had wsd in multiple slots! How would this factor “bodies”? Ah thats wonderful!
Thanks for all the explanations. Another way to look at it with your set:
If you ignore WSD for the moment, you have 1.575 fTP for the first hit and 2.24 for the rest of the WS. For argument's sake, you need 42.2% WSD to make the damage of the first hit of the WS equal the total average damage of the rest of the WS. That is pretty easy on SAM with just the AF/Relic/Cape. Overwhelm: 19% Cape: 10% AF Legs: 10% Relic Body: 10% Total = 49% So even at 1000 TP, your first hit is going to do more damage than the average rest of the hits on Shoha. @2000 TP, 2.3875 fTP with fotia makes the first hit out damage 2 double attacks or 1 TA before you even account for WSD. Which is why I have in the past just gone with WSD on Shoha exactly like Fudo. My current WSD set has (counting overwhelm) 61% WSD, so with Doji, the first hit of Shoha does the equvalent of 4 hits (aka 1 QA) when I'm at at least 1250 TP. With Relic Body +3, that would be 68% I may switch to Austar's posted set, but I'm not really in a hurry to, because for me it's about consistency. Edit: For Reference BiS would probably either be: ItemSet 357778 Valorous 10 STR/5% WSD or 15 STR/4%WSD Smertrios 30 STR 20 acc/atk 10% WSD Or: ItemSet 357779 Valorous 10 STR/5% WSD or 15 STR/4%WSD or 10 STR/5% Double Attack Smertrios 30 STR 20 acc/atk 10% WSD With Doji, I think the first set would consistently perform better. With other GKTs, its a little more fudgable. Calculating those 2 sets specifically, @1000 TP Set 2 wins by .25799 fTP (~6.6% better fTP) @2000 TP Set 2 wins by .119865 fTP (~2.3% better fTP) @3000 TP Set 2 wins by .034865 fTP (~0.6% better fTP) you should probably use moonshade. a lot of the use of flamma is also from the strength and store tp which will make next weapon skill a bit stronger, whether it’s shoha or fudo.
I did the calculations with moonshade and not the DA from Lugra, just have them in my sets.
I did have a slight calculation error that favored Set 1, so the real numbers will be updated in just a sec. i mean you should have them in your sets unless only using at high tp.
With the math error fixed, Set 2 wins even @3000TP on average. So it comes down to consistent first hit vs. overall average damage increased. With a Doji, the maximum average increase is ~2.3%.
I would be interested to see calculations on Lugra +1 vs. Moonshade on this WS because the benefit of extra TP is fairly low. I think moonshade would win between 1-2k TP, but I'd be interested if it does between 2-2.75k. Interestingly, the original set with Dagon is able to produce similar average fTP to the BiS set Austar posted. I'd be a little leery as you give up so much attack for this shoha set, I'd want to see math with STR/atk factored but here's the breakdown
@1000 TP original set wins average fTP by 0.068954 (~1.6%) @2000 TP Austar Bis set wins average fTP by .174796 (~3.3%) @3000 TP Austar BiS set wins average fTP by .324796 (~5.5%) i can force my simulation to use any tp amount before tp bonus and run some numbers. not doing that gave me the result i posted earlier, with very minor differences in a few slots, so i favored weapon skill damage to reduce variance and some have higher tp returns such as head and feet that will affect the following weapon skills unless it’s something like rana
forcing 1K tp before TP bonus on gear, with everything being capped (and overwhelm 5/5):
Code Simulated Average: dojikiri_yasutsuna 3994.77 (WS : 13081.28 )
AA Percent: 0.21 WS Percent: 0.79
Three Minute Sims.: dojikiri_yasutsuna
4072.9 (WS : 12970.04 )
4387.28 (WS : 13612.3 )
4061.77 (WS : 12739.75 )
4250.88 (WS : 13743.03 )
3888.59 (WS : 13096.74 )
4273.72 (WS : 13716.65 )
4050.81 (WS : 13073.38 )
3815.8 (WS : 12790.87 )
3950.84 (WS : 12602.97 )
3961.63 (WS : 13354.29 )swapping in the couple of pieces I did: Code Simulated Average: dojikiri_yasutsuna 4185.66 (WS : 13697.57 )
AA Percent: 0.21 WS Percent: 0.79
Three Minute Sims.: dojikiri_yasutsuna
4390.11 (WS : 14203.11 )
4048.51 (WS : 13610.36 )
4425.37 (WS : 14635.67 )
4207.48 (WS : 13954.15 )
3912.77 (WS : 12957.27 )
3919.76 (WS : 13434.71 )
4246.66 (WS : 14275.87 )
4281.05 (WS : 13858.09 )
4183.11 (WS : 13824.72 )
4436.04 (WS : 14347.81 )Of course, doing it like this is a little inaccurate. The STP does affect TP return, which may or may not affect how fast you're building TP, but it won't apply to overflow numbers, so both should be just a tad higher. Edit: That's with your suggested set, not the original MA based set. I'll go back and look at that in a bit.
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I'd be interested in a normal theoretical distribution that takes into account TP gain and realistic TP numbers. Your set seems to average over 4.5% higher when only @1750 TP.
Using Ejiin's set as a base, except I used Doji and Flamma +2 feet, along with my Shoha set above. Since Ejiin's set assumes SAM roll, I used it here.
ItemSet 266064 ItemSet 357779 Unfortunately, I think code+spoiler is still broken, so here's a really long printout: Edit: I actually can't post because it's too many characters, so here's one three minute printout: Code Quad.
TP: 4388
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 4388
Shoha Dmg. 2713
WS TP Return: 100
Double
TP: 794
Double
TP: 1488
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1488
Shoha Dmg. 13639
WS TP Return: 411
Zanhasso
TP: 1516
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1516
Shoha Dmg. 19165
WS TP Return: 418
Zanhasso
TP: 1523
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1523
Shoha Dmg. 16745
WS TP Return: 392
TP: 739
TP: 1086
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1086
Shoha Dmg. 12803
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12348
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12742
WS TP Return: 366
Zanhasso
TP: 1471
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1471
Shoha Dmg. 19337
WS TP Return: 576
Double
TP: 1270
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1270
Shoha Dmg. 0
WS TP Return: 100
TP: 447
Double
TP: 1141
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1141
Shoha Dmg. 15514
WS TP Return: 505
Triple
TP: 1546
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1546
Shoha Dmg. 2732
WS TP Return: 182
TP: 529
Zanhasso
TP: 1634
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1634
Shoha Dmg. 16977
WS TP Return: 392
Double
TP: 1086
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1086
Shoha Dmg. 12897
WS TP Return: 406
Double
TP: 753
Double
TP: 1447
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1447
Shoha Dmg. 13815
WS TP Return: 366
Zanhasso
TP: 1471
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1471
Shoha Dmg. 13590
WS TP Return: 366
TP: 713
Double
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 13809
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 15195
WS TP Return: 392
TP: 739
Double
TP: 1433
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1433
Shoha Dmg. 13606
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12454
WS TP Return: 366
TP: 713
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12451
WS TP Return: 366
Zanhasso
TP: 1124
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1124
Shoha Dmg. 12844
WS TP Return: 505
Zanhasso
TP: 1610
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1610
Shoha Dmg. 11368
WS TP Return: 340
Quad.
TP: 1728
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1728
Shoha Dmg. 19851
WS TP Return: 418
Triple
TP: 1459
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1459
Shoha Dmg. 13891
WS TP Return: 366
Triple
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 13828
WS TP Return: 366
Triple
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 13654
WS TP Return: 366
Zanhasso
TP: 1471
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1471
Shoha Dmg. 13830
WS TP Return: 511
Double
TP: 1205
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1205
Shoha Dmg. 12944
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 15309
WS TP Return: 403
Double
TP: 1097
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1097
Shoha Dmg. 12580
WS TP Return: 366
Triple
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 0
WS TP Return: 100
Double
TP: 794
Double
TP: 1488
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1488
Shoha Dmg. 19111
WS TP Return: 418
TP: 765
TP: 1112
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1112
Shoha Dmg. 15440
WS TP Return: 392
Zanhasso
TP: 1497
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1497
Shoha Dmg. 13670
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12798
WS TP Return: 366
Quad.
TP: 1754
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1754
Shoha Dmg. 22567
WS TP Return: 444
Zanhasso
TP: 1549
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1549
Shoha Dmg. 16849
WS TP Return: 1941
TP: 2288
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 2288
Shoha Dmg. 15791
WS TP Return: 366
Triple
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 13554
WS TP Return: 366
TP: 713
Triple
TP: 1754
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1754
Shoha Dmg. 14410
WS TP Return: 2120
TP: 2467
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 2467
Shoha Dmg. 21218
WS TP Return: 418
Zanhasso
TP: 1523
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1523
Shoha Dmg. 13689
WS TP Return: 366
Triple
TP: 1407
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1407
Shoha Dmg. 13825
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12834
WS TP Return: 366
Double
TP: 1060
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1060
Shoha Dmg. 12587
WS TP Return: 378
TP: 725
TP: 1072
WS TP Pre-TP Bonus: 1072
Shoha Dmg. 12419
WS TP Return: 366
TP: 713
4337.3 (WS : 13552.52 )I also uploaded my updated version to my git hub, mostly just added MP to gear and made sure raetic properties worked.
https://github.com/CaseyMakes/Simulations What’s everyone putting on their TP capes, meva or status resist?
I’m leaning towards status resist to stack with staunch against high level mobs. Taint said: » What’s everyone putting on their TP capes, meva or status resist? I’m leaning towards status resist to stack with staunch against high level mobs. I’m actually going to be putting -pdt on my tp cape. Assuming I’ll be tanking the Nm most of the time, and just toggle between meva/mdt set with tp/spells with react. But I do plan on making more than 1 tp cape with the new augs. But it would be MEVA over status resist in cape for me on my hybrid set. But this is just my personal preference Taint said: » What’s everyone putting on their TP capes, meva or status resist? I’m leaning towards status resist to stack with staunch against high level mobs. Status resist+ for the simple fact I use Kenda for TP set on ***that does para/amnesia/etc.
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If 5/5 Kenda and well buffed, Status resistance +10 might come out ahead.
If 2/5 Kenda (body and legs), Magic Evasion +15 might come out ahead, and will help with more than just status effects. Fenrir.Cherrywine said: » If 5/5 Kenda and well buffed, Status resistance +10 might come out ahead. If 2/5 Kenda (body and legs), Magic Evasion +15 might come out ahead, and will help with more than just status effects. Thinking status+ will, in any content that matters i use miso over traditional dd food also. Leviathan.Kingkitt said: » Thinking status+ will, in any content that matters i use miso over traditional dd food also. One way to check would be to compare your Magic Evasion and resist rate to those of a RUN in the content you are doing. If you are close to the RUN, but below and seeing a significant difference in resist rates, I would go with Magic Evasion +15. If the RUN has far more Magic Evasion than your SAM, you could do a few test battles with the RUN swapping out some gear to get to exactly your Magic Evasion plus an additional 15, to see what you would experience with that particular cape augment. Here are some great discussions about it. I know you've already been reading these, but for future reference: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/29127/random-question-thread-ffxi-related/532/#3337293 https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/37086/endeavoring-to-awaken-a-guide-to-rune-fencer/141/#3337289 Fenrir.Cherrywine said: » Leviathan.Kingkitt said: » Thinking status+ will, in any content that matters i use miso over traditional dd food also. One way to check would be to compare your Magic Evasion and resist rate to those of a RUN in the content you are doing. If you are close to the RUN, but below and seeing a significant difference in resist rates, I would go with Magic Evasion +15. If the RUN has far more Magic Evasion than your SAM, you could do a few test battles with the RUN swapping out some gear to get to exactly your Magic Evasion plus an additional 15, to see what you would experience with that particular cape augment. Here are some great discussions about it. I know you've already been reading these, but for future reference: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/29127/random-question-thread-ffxi-related/532/#3337293 https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/37086/endeavoring-to-awaken-a-guide-to-rune-fencer/141/#3337289 Only meva i get in zergs on rune are from runes/valiance/pflug, i go full dd set so I'd assume they're similar just thinking about sets sets. Honestly don't know the last time i used sam in a zerg. But i think my sets are pretty solid on rune, and i think valiance goes a long way for a dd pt so long as your rune puts out respectable numbers. SAM, from Gifts, gets an additional 26 Magic Evasion.
RUN, from the Tenacity trait, gets an additional ailment resistance of 15%. RUN, from Gifts, gets an additional 70 Magic Evasion. So, even without any JAs, RUN will be quite a bit ahead of other jobs Tanking, a RUN might be wearing any combination of gear with Resistance to all status ailments and Resist all elements. I'm not saying you are incorrect. Status resistance +10 may very well be the best option. It all depends on where the player's Magic Evasion lies in comparison to the enemy's Magic Accuracy. Quick and dirty edit for more information: A SAM can catch up to or even surpass a DD RUN's Magic Evasion, though, which is why I recommend doing a more detailed comparison for oneself. For example: Kendatsuba samue +1 has Magic Evasion 117 Kendatsuba hakama +1 has Magic Evasion 139 Adhemar jacket +1 has Magic Evasion 69 Samnuha tights have Magic Evasion 75 The difference between these two pieces puts the SAM ahead by 112. Even accounting for the difference in Gifts, the SAM is ahead by 68. Depending on the other gear in each player's sets, either one might come ahead, and you can choose a 5th cape augment accordingly. Fenrir.Cherrywine said: » SAM, from Gifts, gets an additional 26 Magic Evasion. RUN, from the Tenacity trait, gets an additional ailment resistance of 15%. RUN, from Gifts, gets an additional 70 Magic Evasion. So, even without any JAs, RUN will be quite a bit ahead of other jobs Tanking, a RUN might be wearing any combination of gear with Resistance to all status ailments and Resist all elements. I'm not saying you are incorrect. Status resistance +10 may very well be the best option. It all depends on where the player's Magic Evasion lies in comparison to the enemy's Magic Accuracy. Quick and dirty edit for more information: A SAM can catch up to or even surpass a DD RUN's Magic Evasion, though, which is why I recommend doing a more detailed comparison for oneself. For example: Kendatsuba samue +1 has Magic Evasion 117 Kendatsuba hakama +1 has Magic Evasion 139 Adhemar jacket +1 has Magic Evasion 69 Samnuha tights have Magic Evasion 75 The difference between these two pieces puts the SAM ahead by 112. Even accounting for the difference in Gifts, the SAM is ahead by 68. Depending on the other gear in each player's sets, either one might come ahead, and you can choose a 5th cape augment accordingly. Yeah, I should be working myself. I think what is generally considered a BiS TP set for SAM = the generally considered BiS TP set for DD RUN + runes of the appropriate element.
So, I believe you are right and that the two are similar. Running the numbers, I'm more convinced that you are also correct in that, with a BiS TP set on SAM, Status Resistance +10 is likely the best pick. Any others want to offer their thoughts? |
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