If you're keeping up cocoon/barrier tusk full time, it is quite the DPS loss. Yes, BLU can equip all of those traits, but at a sacrifice of something else. Which is the whole point. Would see what you're saying if BLU had them all equipped, but it isn't like that.
For Store TP V, you need to set sudden lunge/fantod, diffusion ray, sickle slash, and tail slap. That is 24 points for STP out of 80.
Job Balance?
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Job Balance?
Afania said: » @Ladyofhonor People will just pick all of your point about blu strength and counter them one by one instead of looking at the job as a whole, lol. Blu is PUGs and bandwagon DDs favorite because ALL of it's strength combined together. Playing "but evasion nerf" card isn't going to make war mnk drk sam more appealing to bandwagoners. Only people really love these job will invest gil in them, for people just want a quick solution DD job to make progress and solve their problems(acc, mediocre whm, make parties, aoe burn) blu is still the superior choice. Nobody gives a *** about PUG man lol. They are mostly comprised of idiots who follow like sheep. Anyone is capable of making their own parties. The BLU bandwagon thing is annoying. I preferred when people thought it was awful. But, Pro/Oraen did a nice job on guide, and a lot of career BLUs post on this site with information.
For a long time, there were not many BLUs on Leviathan. It was basically just Dray and I, plus JPs with macc swords. Now they're everywhere and it is annoying.
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Leviathan.Stamos said: » If you're keeping up cocoon/barrier tusk full time, it is quite the DPS loss. Yes, BLU can equip all of those traits, but at a sacrifice of something else. Which is the whole point. Would see what you're saying if BLU had them all equipped, but it isn't like that. For Store TP V, you need to set sudden lunge/fantod, diffusion ray, sickle slash, and tail slap. That is 24 points for STP out of 80. If you are organizing PUG and don't know pt performance, you can always play defensively and sacrifice dps, and if pt works out well you can switch and play offensively. If you have done PUG you would know when playing with strangers anything can go wrong even with perfect setup. Other dps doesn't get such options to pick playstyle depending on unknown factors. A BLU go all out probably isn't that behind WAR DRK MNK SAM, at least for avg lv of DD. So there's nothing to lose to use blu and switch spells depending on situations. With other DD you don't get such options. Now if blu are wayyy behind other DD, like melee geo whm lv of dps then that's another story. My experience with PUGs is generally I start out on the job I wanted to go, and end up on WHM because the WHM was awful.
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Draylo said: » Afania said: » @Ladyofhonor People will just pick all of your point about blu strength and counter them one by one instead of looking at the job as a whole, lol. Blu is PUGs and bandwagon DDs favorite because ALL of it's strength combined together. Playing "but evasion nerf" card isn't going to make war mnk drk sam more appealing to bandwagoners. Only people really love these job will invest gil in them, for people just want a quick solution DD job to make progress and solve their problems(acc, mediocre whm, make parties, aoe burn) blu is still the superior choice. Nobody gives a *** about PUG man lol. They are mostly comprised of idiots who follow like sheep. Anyone is capable of making their own parties. Well, ultimately it's SEs that's deciding what to nerf and what is OP though. When ppl bandwagoned WAR MNK SE nerfed it, then people bandwagoned THF and BST and SE nerfed it. In a mmo if large number of ppl favor 1 job something must be wrong. Edit: Also why are you worrying about nerfing so much. Recent bst and thf nerf successfully stopped people bandwagoning these jobs, but both jobs still remain strong as DD choice. That is balance. Nightfyre is a huge contributor to the BLU forum. Absolutely tons of specific, detailed testing and mathematics, as well as dedicated updates to the guide itself. Never forget about all he does to help out. He deserves a lot of praise for all his work.
I don't and hopefully never have denied that BLU's kit is a little overloaded since JTB gifts. MG pushed us even further. I still maintain, however, that nerfs are not the way to go. I stand by my original post in this thread about some possible changes to address the imbalance, but we also need to change a lot more. Yes, buffs and rebalancing across 22 jobs is a lot more difficult to accomplish than nerfing 1, but is far healthier for a game in the long run. Quote: For a long time, there were not many BLUs on Leviathan. It was basically just Dray and I, plus JPs with macc swords. Now they're everywhere and it is annoying. "macc sticks" The BLU bandwagon is nauseating atm, I wish they all would go away. Can't walk anywhere without seeing a bilion of them in afterglow Tizona/Almaces which makes it even worse lol. Ultimately if they do nerf it, it wouldn't be huge yes. I still don't like my favorite job being nerfed though due to a bandwagon, but at this point arguing over it doesn't do much. I'm sure this thread will be remade like 50 times though before anything happens lol. Quote: If you are organizing PUG and don't know pt performance, you can always play defensively and sacrifice dps, and if pt works out well you can switch and play offensively. If you have done PUG you would know when playing with strangers anything can go wrong even with perfect setup. Other dps doesn't get such options to pick playstyle depending on unknown factors. A BLU go all out probably isn't that behind WAR DRK MNK SAM, at least for avg lv of DD. So there's nothing to lose to use blu and switch spells depending on situations. With other DD you don't get such options. BLU has had this since day one... how many times it has to be said? :/ You could always choose to be more defensive on BLU, or back up heal, or attack with magic instead of physical etc. It was one of BLU's strongest qualities. Since Abyssea we've had comparable melee/ws dmg to other DDs in addition to that. Mostly for me, I just feel like the whole OP thing is way overblown. Feel as if some people are just piggybacking in here for attention/trolling. Without having a real concept of how BLU is played, or how the traits/spells work. Mighty guard is the one aspect that I agree with, when we got it I was very surprised how powerful it was. It mostly made all of the other UL spells irrelevant.
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Asura.Thorva said: » Fenrir.Snaps said: » Asura.Thorva said: » "Attempts at objective analysis are rare and often riddled with confirmation bias," this is literally what you did talking about your non-almace blu vs AG Rag war. This was deliberate to illustrate why anecdotal testimonial (the crux of all of your posts) is not very useful. It seems this went over your head though. The rest of your post is just more of the same stuff so I'm not going to bother with a detailed response. It's basically you celebrating the jobs you like the most and stating why they're better than other jobs while also demonstrating a clear lack of insight into the jobs you don't play. I feel like your scope is narrow and limited. I had a nice long detailed response for you, explaining once again how incorrect you are, I deleted it all to simply put it this way. You are wrong in thinking blu even remotely competes with an AG Rag war or drk. You have not used any numbers except that you beat a really bad war in parse. Until you go toe-to-toe against someone that knows what they are doing you will never see nor understand that, you are putting your 1 experience of a bad AG Rag player as your end-all knowledge. Where as I have gone up against countless blu and the only one that came close was top tier, empy/aeonic, geared when I used reforge/eschite/skirm gear. I think you seriously need to get out of your bubble and search the dmg that war and drk are capable of now. No blu is spamming 50k-70k ws, period. I don't care what kind of gear you have, you are not spamming that kind of dmg on blu with cdc. Drk and War forums would be a great place to start. I never stated BLU was higher DPS than DRK/WAR, or the contrary. I said that your argument sucks (and that most job A vs job B arguments also suck) and I stand by that. You're talking about bubbles yet you're going on about BLU vs DRK/WAR when I never attempted to have that conversation. Blazed1979 said: » To put MNK where it SHOULD be: - R/E/M traits need to proc on 2nd hand - VS needs to be where it was at on release. - An STP trait - Godhand MNKs have no way of consistently self skill chaining. Definitely agree with above. Honestly, Relics are the worst weapons out of the pack. The 2.5/3x damage boost which activates 13% of the time should activate on any swing of the main hand instead of only the initial swing of the primary weapon (similar to Empyreal's aftermath). Also, it should be able to proc on WS. People would say this would be broken but I doubt it. It would make relics more a competitive option to other legendary weapons. Doesn't Empyreal's aftermath with 2x/3x damage proc on both hands on any swing and on WSs or is it the same as relic? Just curious. Edited: 09/16/2016 11:21pm PST - Nevermind on the Empyreal weapon question. It does proc on any hit of the main hand's weapon but not on any hits from the offhand. Also, it does not proc on WSs. Leviathan.Stamos said: » If you're keeping up cocoon/barrier tusk full time, it is quite the DPS loss. Yes, BLU can equip all of those traits, but at a sacrifice of something else. Which is the whole point. Would see what you're saying if BLU had them all equipped, but it isn't like that. For Store TP V, you need to set sudden lunge/fantod, diffusion ray, sickle slash, and tail slap. That is 24 points for STP out of 80. According to the exact DD specs I'm looking at you get STP V in your ultimate DD Zahak Reborn spec. Barrier Tusk is 3 points, you would lose one tier of something, and can already fit Cocoon into that spec. So not "quite the DPS loss". And as said in my post, it's an advantage no other job can replicate. I'd gladly take a DPS loss for more survival. Hell, that's why 99% of the time I am THF/RUN instead of /SAM or /WAR for max damage. I meant casting those spells over and over. Cocoon doesn't last long. If I recall Tusk lasts 3 mins.
When I read stuff like that though, it makes me feel as if people do not swap into DT sets if they pull hate, or if an aoe spell/tp move is coming. If you are staying in your DD set full time you are doing it wrong in this game. Leviathan.Stamos said: » I meant casting those spells over and over. Cocoon doesn't last long. If I recall Tusk lasts 3 mins. When I read stuff like that though, it makes me feel as if people do not swap into DT sets if they pull hate, or if an aoe spell/tp move is coming. If you are staying in your DD set full time you are doing it wrong in this game. According to you guys, since MG lasts the full duration of a fight in "anything that matters" then Barrier Tusk has to be recast a single time in that time frame. And the point I've made is that BLU doesn't even need to swap into DT sets to have similar DT to a DD in some semblance of one because of the buffs they can utilize. Well, anything that matters has been debated a bit here. My opinion in at least until the recent evasion nerf this discussion was mostly irrelevant because everything that was melee'd was weak content.
As for the full DD set, pretty much promise you would never use that set in a PUG setup. Like in most cases in this game, if your WHM sucks you die. Leviathan.Stamos said: » Like in most cases in this game, if your WHM sucks you die. Which is exactly why my main concern with BLU OPness is the massive defense and DT it has over other melee. Defense+75%, Regen+30 and DT-15% is absolutely massive compared to anything another melee has to offer. Other melee are receiving that DEF/regen..... It helps less than you think though. Other DD also have other tools for hate/dmg mitigation. Not to mention SE has nerfed AOE dmg and most jobs won't be taking hate off a tank so it again is not as big as it seems.
Draylo said: » Other melee are receiving that DEF/regen..... It helps less than you think though. Other DD also have other tools for hate/dmg mitigation. Not to mention SE has nerfed AOE dmg and most jobs won't be taking hate off a tank so it again is not as big as it seems. Only if you bring a BLU. So now a BLU is locked into a slot like GEO? I thought that's why GEO was OP? Would love to see you list off the tools that work for hate/damage mitigation for the other jobs. They were already listed on the previous page, I'm not gonna go through them all. The main point is, survival is a lot easier now due to AOE nerf. Acc is less of an issue now due to evasion nerf. Now SE continues to adjust other jobs, the gap isn't huge as people are parroting and crying to make a nerf happen. The issue is way blown out of proportion and its already been stated that BLU is not the top DD in terms of raw DPS. The defensive tools have ALWAYS been there, and BLUs DD potential has been competitive since Abyssea in addition to its support tools. How about complaining about BST again being they have 10x the survivability of a BLU, similar dmg potential and infinite heals lol.
Draylo said: » They were already listed on the previous page, I'm not gonna go through them all. The main point is, survival is a lot easier now due to AOE nerf. Acc is less of an issue now due to evasion nerf. Now SE continues to adjust other jobs, the gap isn't huge as people are parroting and crying to make a nerf happen. The issue is way blown out of proportion and its already been stated that BLU is not the top DD in terms of raw DPS. The defensive tools have ALWAYS been there, and BLUs DD potential has been competitive since Abyssea in addition to its support tools. How about complaining about BST again being they have 10x the survivability of a BLU, similar dmg potential and infinite heals lol. I complained about BST when it was the bandwagon of the game. I complained about THF when it was the bandwagon of the game. I complained about MNK when it was the bandwagon of the game. Whenever a job is outclassing all the others, something should be done to cool that down. In some situations that'll be a buff to other jobs and in others it'll be a nerf to that job. BLU has been outclassing the other jobs for a long, long time now. Something needs to be done, and I'd rather nerf it's defensive potential, level that out with other jobs, and then allow them to continue tweaking overall boss damage so melee is a viable strategy. Go ahead, it wouldn't change anything lol. You could remove Cocoon, Barrier Tusk and the haste off MG from the game and it wouldn't really do much to curve the bandwagon. BLU has had these tools forever and nobody complained before. If anything they would slightly nerf CDC but it would effect two other jobs that are on it. They should be focusing on buffs to other jobs and not nerfs. You say its too hard to do that but they've already done it with AOE nerf and evasion nerf. Adjusting WSD for h2h WS and slight (only slight) buffs for other 2hrs would go a longer way than nerfing spells BLU has had for ages.
Also funny you complained when BST was a bandwagon, yet not now, even though its still in the exact same position. So you only complain when something becomes popular and not because of actual game mechanics? BST barely changed at all lol. I complain when players feel locked into certain jobs with no hope of playing the ones they enjoy. So months ago people only shouted for BST, that was an issue. Now people only shout for BLU, that is an issue.
The reason people shout for those jobs is because they're easier to setup for victory. BST was made harder to setup for victory as now you need an idle set and ample recovery items for your pet (or something, I dunno, have only seen what they changed and guess what that actually changed) and people don't want to deal with that hassle. So now BLU is the easiest to setup for victory, something should be changed to bring that back down. If somehow that makes the overall game too hard, then they can buff everything to compensate. Sometimes a buff to another class that pulls it ahead or sparks interest in the public can do that too. If a slight nerf will kill the bandwagon I'm all for it though, I can't stand it myself. I just don't see nerfing some defensive spells as the option, I'd lean more towards what Oraen said (even though that probably wouldn't kill it either.) Most idiot PUG BLU's don't even cast defensive spells from what I've seen. Sadly the only thing would be a straight DMG decrease but I don't see how that would be possible really. Even if you nerf CDC theres Savage Blade and Expiacion.
Draylo said: » Sometimes a buff to another class that pulls it ahead or sparks interest in the public can do that too. If a slight nerf will kill the bandwagon I'm all for it though, I can't stand it myself. I just don't see nerfing some defensive spells as the option, I'd lean more towards what Oraen said (even though that probably wouldn't kill it either.) Most idiot PUG BLU's don't even cast defensive spells from what I've seen. Sadly the only thing would be a straight DMG decrease but I don't see how that would be possible really. Even if you nerf CDC theres Savage Blade and Expiacion. And again I don't see BLU DPS as the issue, so I don't think a straight DMG nerf is fair. I think people mimic what works best at the top. If people at the top start shifting to other jobs, that will roll on down. If BLU no longer has its massive DT advantage over other jobs people would switch to the job they would prefer and as we all know, there aren't as many career BLU's as AG Tizona/Almace's would make you think there are. The "massive" DT advantange doesn't really matter. I can speak from personal experience in saying that, but clearly other groups are seeing that too. There are already videos posted of melee strats on the high tier Escha NMs, they have used other jobs besides BLU. This all just started at the top level of end game due to the recent changes SE made, give it time and further adjustments (which SE has planned for other jobs) and it may change. Another reason why I feel this is being blown out of proportion and mainly fueled by the hive-mind mouth breathing PUGs that refuse to take anything but what they read on ffxiah or BG.
Summary:
- BST needed a nerf. - Don't nerf Blu - Buff up other DPS (especially MNK!) - People parse against shitty players and use it as the rule to rank jobs. Also, the 5k Crits from Ukon is fairly common. Highest I've seen is 8k. I've said this before, but retaliation + Ukon tanking is the craziest beat down you will see in the game. When it becomes a thing, remember I said it 4 months ago. -You break the attack cap with retaliation. -Crit AM3 dmg procs with retaliation attacks. -You get TP from retaliation attacks. -Retaliation procs during WS's
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Blazed1979 said: » - People parse against shitty players and use it as the rule to rank jobs. This is why THF doesn't get ranked high, I don't play with other people. Blazed1979 said: » - People parse against shitty players and use it as the rule to rank jobs. To be fair, this goes both ways. I know the last "don't nerf BLU" discussion I read on the BLU guide had posts of 2-3 Ambuscade runs where a BLU happened to get outparsed, therefore BLU ~= best DD. Parses only can be useful if you interpret the factors behind the fight and why certain damage may excel/struggle under those conditions. Draylo said: » Quote: For a long time, there were not many BLUs on Leviathan. It was basically just Dray and I, plus JPs with macc swords. Now they're everywhere and it is annoying. "macc sticks" The BLU bandwagon is nauseating atm, I wish they all would go away. Can't walk anywhere without seeing a bilion of them in afterglow Tizona/Almaces which makes it even worse lol. Ultimately if they do nerf it, it wouldn't be huge yes. I still don't like my favorite job being nerfed though due to a bandwagon, but at this point arguing over it doesn't do much. I'm sure this thread will be remade like 50 times though before anything happens lol. Quote: If you are organizing PUG and don't know pt performance, you can always play defensively and sacrifice dps, and if pt works out well you can switch and play offensively. If you have done PUG you would know when playing with strangers anything can go wrong even with perfect setup. Other dps doesn't get such options to pick playstyle depending on unknown factors. A BLU go all out probably isn't that behind WAR DRK MNK SAM, at least for avg lv of DD. So there's nothing to lose to use blu and switch spells depending on situations. With other DD you don't get such options. BLU has had this since day one... how many times it has to be said? :/ You could always choose to be more defensive on BLU, or back up heal, or attack with magic instead of physical etc. It was one of BLU's strongest qualities. Since Abyssea we've had comparable melee/ws dmg to other DDs in addition to that. Blu still need brd to cap haste back in the day unlike these days that they can solo cap, how many times it has to be said =( Let's admit it, MG is implemented poorly from game design perspective. Other DD JA doesn't impact pt composition this much. Afania said: » Leviathan.Stamos said: » Real question here is, why are you advocating nerfing for mediocre/bad players? Sure, they make up a lot of the shouts, but who wants to join a bad/meh party anyway? SE has been balancing jobs based on the majority of player though, not Draylo nor Stamos. That's why they nerf BST. Again, you guys are looking at this issue from top end player's pov, instead of entire community. Top end players are minority, not majority. Also pick one argument and stick with it...sometimes it's MG, then it's acc, then it's defense, then it's versatility, then it's popularity. You just keep changing it based on people's posts. Afania said: » Other dps doesn't get such options to pick playstyle Do we have to nerf them all because they can do different things other than spam ws? At this point you're just saying anything for the sake of being right.
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