Tojil Under 25mins

Pretty much this. I guess you could say the general asuran response is indifferent on the been there/done there approach...it's expected we're Asuran. Going with an NA/EU based PuG vs a JP PuG is an entirely different experience...the NA/EU base at least on asura is usually too busy talking about their parse, their awesome spreadsheet data set that they've never even used but read about on all the forums, and being know it all elites in the party, and being so damn stubborn you get terribad results. Good thing a lot of them had gil to pay for wins, and then SE made a huge concession in august to help the kids climb over the anthill.

In contrast, most JP runs, they know their role, usually communicate briefly and the focus is on achieving the goal. If you perform poorly it happens...if you perform poorly and don't LEARN from it, well good luck joining NA/EU groups unless you have really good connections or the gil to pay for wins.

If anything, a video like this should just be another nudge for all those folks who are still struggling through wins to quit making excuses, figure out what they need to do to win.

It's not just Asura thing, on my server most NA/EU player avoid PUG like plague, out of every NA/EU PUG I joined(that's made by other ppl), only 1 win.

All the JP PUG I joined are 100% win rate, however.

Personally I think it's not related to parses/spreadsheet, if anything, parse improve your own performance, not the other way around. JP parse too, it's not like they don't.

done <25 min with only 2 real players, no geo, and no brd swap besides tojil so not really impressed

would say if anything, jps get more opportunities to get used to the run because they seem to accept PUG more(and have a much bigger population to work with)

@Afania Way to miss his point. Spreadsheets are good tools when used right, but he's saying people on his server are too concerned with "x gear set parsed/spreadsheeted better" and less worried about playing correctly. Spreadsheet all you want, but without your JAs, buffs, gear, WSing at 100% TP (if its a DPS gain in the situation), etc its going to do piss all in the grand scheme of things. Having good support goes a long way towards improving your performance, no doubt, but I'd prefer a player that knew what a hybrid TP set was to some clutz who "always parses number 1 in pugs." Prolly cuppers to targets for a head start too, that ***was so fun when you'd see it done, and they'd post parse results in party chat trying to brag lol. Get to an NM and destroy their results. Good stuff.

I've never understood the benefit for most players to do that in an NM run, you get there faster, then stand there and wait for the rest of the ally to catch up.

i honestly like how the guy gets a win and its not good enough...i mean last time i checked a wins a win

Shabba wasn't bragging, but sharing the video for others to see. Really, they know other people have done it in other ways, but as long as it works, be glad they did it as a PUG. This is something most NA PUG's can't do.

JP get more opportunities and accept more PUG because their community pays more attention to the way the strategy is written and commit more towards their groups. It simply isn't just population (Whole other topic). While there are NA that do too, the JP community does this even more so because it's explained in every detail before entry. You can argue their connection is better, therefore stuns land easier, but there's no denying how much focus is into their groups. While it's just Tojil, their teamwork is usually outstanding, and is why they're more accepting in their community for PUG's.

There is of course bad players in the JP community, but that's just normal. I've been a part of many JP PUG's, Linkshells, and friends, and if there is a bad player, like NA, they're usually known throughout the server.

He didn't have his hands tied behind his back playing with his tongue and an eye patch on so it's not *legit*.

Just exclusive players trying to feel more exclusive, a win is a win.

I didn't miss the point, just disagreeing with spreadsheet/parse should be brought up as a reason for fail PUG and not playing correctly. Most(not all, but most) of the players I pt with that do parse/spreadsheet actually own hybrid TP set or + HP set when lahar lands. And those who doesn't parse/spreadsheet/read forum are often the one gearing wrong, doing bad dmg, not paying attention, engage before buff done AND not having hybrid sets + died first when ***happened.

The players that parsed/used spreadsheet are often the one who actually care about job performance and play the job correctly, that includes less deaths. Doing research via spreadsheet/parse shows you care about the event, and vice versa, if you don't care about your job performance/gear set and the event, you won't do very well.

That being said, not owning hybrid set or DD not playing correctly is usually not the main reason NA PUG fail. NA PUG has higher fail rate usually because:

1. Bad stun, bad heal.
2. Fail BRD rotation at some point of time. JP don't BRD swap as often to avoid fail rotation.




3. Fail DD, that happens less often than No.1 and 2.




I'd say because those JP who joined PUG did plenty of research, watch video or read forum, they know what's coming. They know the connection speed/gear requirement for stun sets, and what TP move each NM use. It's 10x easier to heal/support if you know each NM's TP move, how much dmg they do, and which -na you need to use right after previous TP move. NA player from PUG often go first then learn. I think that's the main difference. Long time ago I have someone(not LS member nor friend) asked to join Tojil run on empy SAM or NIN, if that person ever read forum, he shouldn't ever request to join(leech) on empy SAM NIN.

i personally like parses i just dont like how ppl pick on each other about them. i used to parse low on my monk and after awhile of switching what gear i had around ive been able to go from low parse to one of the top parses in the ls. never much like spreadsheet tho to many variables that r diff with each run like 2-4 song brds rotation cor rolls (yea been on a few where cor rolls were alil wierd)

Don't agree entirely - you're basically listing the list of jobs in order of how critical they are. Fail PUG is mostly because of the leader. PUGs can have a good win rate if the leader done sufficient research on the event and improve on strategy upon fail. The failed pugs tends to be with the same leaders... as least in Cerberus. You can usually tell whether it is going to be a fail PUG during the briefing before you enter. :P

Fail DD happens a lot, just because their roles aren't as critical and their failings aren't as noticeable doesn't mean they don't fail at the same scale as stuns/healers - You can easily bring a few noob DDs and win Tojil but bring noob schs and it's pretty much a lost (hybrid sets are irrelevant when you have 2 schs stunning every move tojil does..). I hardly see fail bard rotation (but i often go on bard and i make sure it happens...), but that is another thing that a good leader would have observed and make sure it happens (make sure rotation is called, make brd send /tells to reinforce the invite, keep an eye on who's waiting for invite, alert the leaders to kick the stupid bard when swap is needed etc.).

This racial separation kind of baffles me... There are noob leaders who are trying to run things and there are good leaders who's done their research. I've been in good PUGs and bad PUGs from both sides of the world. Knowing who has the ability to host a good run for PUGs is kind of the key. There are definitely several people in my server who host pugs that I will never join :3

It's not always leader's fault for not doing research :p I've made a Ceizak 5NM+ boss PUG and cleared with 10 min left with only 5 songs(without relic) total and only brd swap on boss+ gnat. Then I tried to help my LS member/friends getting clear, using exactly same strat and mostly same job, it was a disaster.

I know exactly what to do on each NM, but it's not entirely leader's fault if members can't do it. Of course you can argue that good PUG leader should pick members to begin with, I also know exactly who's failing stun and gimping dmg, or failing BRD rotation, but sometimes there are just friends needs clear and if I'm helping, I can't really say no to them.

As for BRD rotation, I almost always deal with rotation exactly same way as JPs, call out T/N time, ask pt leaders make /pcmd add name macro for both pts. And it's not entirely leader's fault if BRD just won't accept invite or ppl not seeing t/n time in /p chat. There are times it worked with 2 songs BRD, and there are times it doesn't work with 3~4 songs BRD.

I also noticed NA members in PUG sometimes like to act as they please, once there's one member asked another member to pull 2 more NM in /tell, do you think it's entirely leader's fault that member just act on their own without leader's approval?

Unless you want PUG leader to invite same ppl everytime, and exclude those who never pt with. Usually if I filter ppl heavily, PUG pt gets much higher success rate, and vice versa. But then it'd become another standard NA PUG, only go with friends/connection you can trust, unlike JPs they can just /shout for anyone and go but still win more often than NA PUG.


IMO, if pt member don't do research themselves, only relying on pt lead to tell them what to equip, what food to eat, what job to use, or how to play their job correctly, that member is just a burden and make pt lead's job harder. You can't really blame leader not baby sitting every aspect of job pt member playing. A DD without appropriate gear/skill should never ask to join a pt, it shouldn't be pt lead's responsibility to filter those DDs. That applies to every job. If a pt is bad because pt lead wasn't making sure WHM has 50% cure potency, it's WHM's fault for not having 50% cure potency but still want to join a hard event, not pt lead's fault.

u act like 10 min left is good did all zones 1-5+b in an hour

Good job on win, we typically on Phoenix win with like 10-13 minutes left on the clock if all goes according the plan. Hundred fist + Formless until 75%, take off formless and start hammering him as the mages do their job. It is a -group- effort people, leadership only goes so far in events where you need straight up firepower to bring something down. However I do think that most players need to readopt the old style of never say die mentality that I remember with FFXI. Strategy not working but it seems to work for everyone else? Get flexible, the game was about becoming adaptable to situations, but now with most people going lazy with the current best strategy for Delve, a lot of jobs people love aren't being touched because they aren't deemed 'suitable' for Delve. BLU is getting the shaft atm. Until this mentality dissolves with the fixes coming (Hopefully) the sense of individuality will return to XI and we won't feel like a bunch of drones lvling the same jobs (MNK/SCH/BRD/WHM/RDM/etc) and maybe the community can become a little less negative in the process and get this game back on track.

Sure, if everyone knows how to play their job properly nothing matters... but that is the whole point of PUG - you cannot assume a high calibre of quality amongst your members.

I don't think jp players are more informative in what they do. It's just leader spend extensive time on briefing them. I have a fair amount of knowledge in the language so I know the leader goes through the strat in details.

I think if you are a PUG leader, assuming all your members need spoon feeding is a fair assumption that would substantially increase your winning rate. Decreasing bard rotation isn't the answer, the answer is to ensure the bard rotates. Yes you can win with less rotation, but that is relying on your DDs being well equipped enough to churn through the non rotated nms in a timely manner. So essentially you're moving the burden from one place to another ~ The better answer is to force the bards to communicate with each other and force the leaders to communicate with bards. Assign a bard to manage the rotation, make him call time and make him ensure the leader invite the bards (like make him tell you if no one is inviting him so you can spam calls for the leaders to wake them up), make bards create disband macro with a /tell to their next leader - this is one of the many possible solutions to increase the chance of successful rotation



If you know they can't do their job, you should really be frank about it. Make the brd go into sch party and just sing marches, make the fail sch go with some less critical job (or give them a chance by teaching them exactly how to stun properly - the jp leaders often tell the jp stunners to "red line stun"). going in with people in critical jobs that you know they can't do their job is really a doomed run that is going to waste the cost of a rock and time really =/


It's the PUG leader's responsibility to prune out the ones who didn't know they are not fit for the job. Sure you can't really tell them to post you gear sets and everything, but a simple filter should really be applied. It's pretty common to filter DDs by weapon, drg needing AF2+2 hands, whm needing 50%cure pot/ +5mp idle set (to be honest i think low cast time/AF3+2legs is more important than cure pot%). I know it's doesn't make you feel like you're being nice to be picky, but I have also seen a war joining a delve run with a empy /full AF3 gear and /dnc. You gotta keep in mind you're making 17 other people devote time in a challenge, being a host you should try your best to get people who "sounds" like they have what it takes to beat it. There will still be times where you brought in a very noob like this, but at least you reduced the risk.


When I say spoon feeding I'm more meaning the strats part of the game. It's a good idea to re-instruct your members before every nm (the amount of mnks who forget and do Shijin Spiral on mastop), telling CORs to WC when appropiate.


No, but this isn't really the norm (rather, it's more likely the PUG DDs just stand there and let time go to waste..and not pull an nm at all lol), and you could reduce this risk by laying down rules like "XXX, you're assigned to pull nms whenever you feel the DDs are ready", "always adds first unless pld says otherwise", etc. I've also taken in JP players in a NA/EU PUG that does whatever they pleases even though I instructed them in Japanese.

Anyway you sound like you know what you're doing. I'm more talking about the leaders I've been with that brings in stupid setup, or strategies that doesn't make any sense. And that kind of leader exists, NA or EU or JP.

It's the leaders job to filter out the noobs and unprepared players and not waste everyone else's time because he invited about anyone who sent a tell. A lot of people have no idea of the requirements needed to join runs. There was one time a DRG asked me to come, said he had never done Tojil. So I went and asked him which weapon he had and if he had angon merited and augmented, to which he replied yes.

People like that shows they have done their work to know what's needed for their particular job and of course they will be invited. The WHM without orison pants is another story.

How do you come up with this stuff?

BLU is very useful for Ceizak. Some also consider them for Foret, took one in for Tojil yday for lolz (/wave Conagh), and he managed to out parse some mnks.

The hard part is actually finding one that is well geared. :P

Because Dramatica

Nobody say how good it is. It's just a comparison.

By shaft I mean their spells aren't landing the additional effects ever, their once ungodly strong spells have damage caps on them, and other spells just aren't worth looking at. As a completionist my mule has only like 12 spells left, I just wish there was more mmph to BLU

If you know a bit of their language and asked to join their pt, you'd know they don't filter ppl....they may ask "Oat MNK or X shield PLD", but nothing beyond that. They just automatically assume everyone has appropriate set, because majority of ppl they got mostly can do their job.

Making fail SCH play other job or BRD that can't swap go to mage pt is NOT the right way to go. If you shout for a SCH, the SCH SHOULD do homework before sending the /tell, with ability to stun. If you're a SCH but no stun set nor good connection speed, you shouldn't reply to /shout, ever. Filter ppl, make a list of "who's good who isn't" is just not right, because you should be "good" if you want to join, not apply unprepared and expect a chance to get win,and hoping you don't get caught by leader that you're not prepared.

And yes, everyone knows you're making 17 other ppl's time, thus no one should ever apply with WAR full AF /DNC or something, not the other way around, asking leader to make sure WAR isn't wearing that, and blame the leader for failing the run.

Oh and btw, I explained strat probably more than any JP group before going, I'm in a JPLS and sometimes go with JP PUG, and I can tell you the biggest difference between JP PUG and NA PUG is that NA PUG members like to apply with 0 idea what's the event about. Spending 30min explaining strat is pointless if they're not prepared. If you can't stun, spending 30min telling you how to stun isn't going to help you stun better.

and ure comparison means nothing honestly. u just wanna bash ppl and make ureself seem elite. which is y i decided to say ure gimp and imma leave it at that. when u get 1-5+b in 15 min then u can bash ppl. ty have a nice day bein gimp

I cleared them in 59min 59secs this one time... I think that makes me the best evar.

Did I "bash" anyone for being gimp? lol I simply said your clear speed/win rate is irrelevant to who's leading in last post, but more about who's in alliance, learn to read. Not sure exactly what I said was bashing gimps.

This is the same filtering system as the NA/EU PUGs uses... They tend to put their requirements on /seacom and if they don't ask questions about your gear they assume you fit their /seacom requirement. They are actually more picky than EU/NA sometimes, very often I see they need bards to have march +3 instrument or ghorn for e.g. and ask for people with boss experience(perhaps this is why you seems to think the non filtered JP are more informative... :D). And for all you know the leader may have a list of players they filtered out as well. As far as I see the NA/EU PUGs don't "only invite their friends and well known good players". I personally would invite someone I never played with provided they are geared appropiately and have a basic understanding of what their job do. I just don't invite the people I KNOW they are bad. Which seems to be inline with what you're thinking.


I am referring to your situation of you trying to help your friends clear even if they suck :P


Respect your point, but beg to differ. I don't think assumption of knowledge is a good idea and nor does it benefit you much. (not saying the knowledge of how to play their job in general, but specifically the knowledge of the delve instances)

All I ever require my PUG members to do is the ability to do their basic job and have the ability to listen. Which, to be fair, majority of the NA/EU people I play with have that capability. There isn't really a need for people to have a knowledge about the delve instance to do it if they can follow orders (pld aside, they need to know the way). In fact sometimes I find knowledge works against you, because some likes to think they know what they are doing and stop following your instructions (like a DD using a debuff ws until 20 exvu on Tax'et and tell everyone to stop debuffing after 20 count. and I still see the odd mnk trying to formless on a magic prepped mata... lol)

Either way my point is, I feel like you're giving too much credit to the JP for "being JP". I feel the quality of people is about the same NA/EU/JP, it is more to do with leaders. NA/EU PUG win rate isn't that low and it is worth a shot if you want the clears (or something to do other that sitting in town idle! :D)

I bet that had the blood pumpin'

So far the gear requirement I've seen on seacom is Oat/shield/brd instrument, but nothing beyond that really. I've asked to join JP pt couple of times, and they never ask me if I have required gear. I've read some of JPLS recruitment and they do put gear requirement on recruitment page, but when I send reply to /shout they seems to just assume I have what's required. Asking for Oat/R/E BRD is really basic requirement that's not really filtering much.

I never give too much credit to the JP just for "being JP". First delve boss world kill was done by NA AFAIK, and NA top tier community isn't behind JP at all, but avg PUG does have lower win rate, most friends of mine avoid NA PUG like plague, and there's a reason behind it.

I also never say anything about NA player has lower "quality" than JP, it's more about the attitude and POV toward doing an event. I only said many NA players tend to try to join(leech) a run unprepared, and it's bad attitude. That'd scare experienced NA player away because they'd avoid NA PUG like plague, the result is even lower win rate for NA PUG due to no experienced/well geared player want to join PUG.

I also disagree with "you can do fine without knowing what's coming". Your performance do increase in delve with more experience or forum reading/researching.

Couldn't agree more with this

Relic bard has never been a requirement, at least in my server. My point is JP filters as much as the NA/EU do. We just don't use /seacom as an entry requirement information.


Often there are several ways to do a single nm (e.g. foret T1). It's easier to convey your strategy to a person who has no clue than a person who thinks they know what to do and no listen - of course the bottom line is the ability to listen. So I believe it's more important that people listen. If they have 30mins to read up something, I think it's more worthwhile for them to read up the job section of their job and see what they can do to improve their general job skills. This gives more input than reading up how to go about doing T1-6. I mean, provided the host told you what to do on the nm, how does reading about it gives you any extra advantage? for e.g. if you're a mnk on mastop, given your host told you no shijin Spiral, chain FS with your fellow mnks, no matter how much you read about it, it is still going to be no shijin spiral and chain FS. It's better off if they spend that time to read the job forum and see how they can improve their gear set or whatever DD do. (as you can tell from my profile i don't play dd.)

I agree with your performance do increase with experience, but reading about the instance isn't experience (unless you read JP blogs who blogs in the perspective of a specific job...). It's just reading up all the possible strategies, which is more of a responsibility of the host to do, and choose the one where he feels fits the best for the team.

Maybe Cerberus is just a very weird server. I don't see many people who avoid PUG like plague. There are only like 1-2 linkshells who are still doing delve as a ls afaik. Majority of linkshells crumbled after ARR and the only choice is PUG.