After multi strikes (we'll define it as 2x DA to keep it constant) it becomes 15 ftp for RF vs 14.5 ftp for Resolution. The mods on Raging Fists aren't nearly as good but it gets the benenfit of having a 1 hit 9.0 FTP and MNK has access to a lot of good WSD equipment.
Doesn't quite work that way because you can't wear multiple pieces in the same slot. Gearing for WSD means your not gearing for multi-attack, gearing for STR means your not gearing for DEX.
That's the central issue with H2H WS's, they are hard to exploit because their mechanics don't lineup well with gear choices. For things like Resolution you can exclusively stack STR and Multi-Attack, while for those like Savage Blade you go for STR and WSD, Rudras is DEX and WSD or CHD (if stacked). StarDiver is STR and Multi-Attack, Fudo is STR and WSD. You should see a pattern here, everything is focusing on one raw stat and one special stat to maximize. Also remember 2H jobs have a higher attack cap and larger base DMG weapons.
sorry, it was quick and dirty math, i've been gradually editing the post lul. I neglected to use Fotia because I didn't remember if the 0.1 ftp boost only applies to all hits if it's ftp transfer but I'm pretty sure it is. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't change things by much even across 7 hits when the ftp is so high, in the case of resolution it'd be 15.75 -> 17.15 = 8.8% marginal boost. The difference is a lot more pronounced at lower TP when the marginal gain is a lot higher.
Wut.... Fotia is a large bonus for Resolution because it's applied on every hit, same with CDC and StarDiver.
2.25 + (50/256) = 2.445 * 5 = 12.225. Now add in the MA's and you get 14.67 (6 hits) ~ 17.115 (7 hits). There is also a helmet which will raise it 30/256 for another 0.1171 if appropriate.
After multi strikes (we'll define it as 2x DA to keep it constant) it becomes 15 ftp for RF vs 14.5 ftp for Resolution. The mods on Raging Fists aren't nearly as good but it gets the benenfit of having a 1 hit 9.0 FTP and MNK has access to a lot of good WSD equipment.
Doesn't quite work that way because you can't wear multiple pieces in the same slot. Gearing for WSD means your not gearing for multi-attack, gearing for STR means your not gearing for DEX.
That's the central issue with H2H WS's, they are hard to exploit because their mechanics don't lineup well with gear choices. For things like Resolution you can exclusively stack STR and Multi-Attack, while for those like Savage Blade you go for STR and WSD, Rudras is DEX and WSD or CHD (if stacked). StarDiver is STR and Multi-Attack, Fudo is STR and WSD. You should see a pattern here, everything is focusing on one raw stat and one special stat to maximize. Also remember 2H jobs have a higher attack cap and larger base DMG weapons.
I agree with the point on STR/DEX, but newer gear alleviates that a little bit, especially the accessories like Regal/Niqmaddu/Moonbow Belt. The AF+3 gloves aren't too terrible either given that they have fairly high STR, moderate DEX paired with the 10 WSD. Legs are *** for any job since lolDex. Feet are ok since it's Herc as well.
As a MNK you comfortably get about
3 QA, 10 TA, 10 DA (I neglected /WAR in case someone comes /DNC to cap delay) on WS which is kinda meh, but CC 11 Fighter's Roll helps a lot by boosting your DA to 42%. 5 hits * .42 = 2.1 hits*.95 acc cap = 1.99 hits added, so you should be able to get 2x DA comfortably a vast majority of the time. I did say the context was maximum buff zerg, afterall.
5 hits * .42 = 2.1 hits*.95 acc cap = 1.99 hits added, so you should be able to get 2x DA comfortably a vast majority of the time. I did say the context was maximum buff zerg, afterall.
Wait .. wait ...
That's not how MA works on WS's, like ever. If it did WAR's would be rolling with 7~8 hit Resolutions practically every time because they are packing ~80% DA in their WS sets.
You get 2 MA rolls on a WS, unless it's one hit in which case you only get one. So roll QA, then TA, then DA, then do it again. Max number of it's is 8. Your getting half a hit average per WS maybe, not two.
That is why multi-hit fTP transfer WS's and single-hit WS's are what you want, not this hybrid multi-hit fTP non-transfer WS.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works, I know you get a MAXIMUM of 2 multi strike procs on a WS, but I've never seen where it defines *which* hits specifically have a chance. I asked someone and they said that the only testing they've seen was from like lv75 era, but if someone has a source that is significantly newer would you be able to link me? Cause I'd like to read it.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works, I know you get a MAXIMUM of 2 multi strike procs on a WS, but I've never seen where it defines *which* hits specifically have a chance. I asked someone and they said that the only testing they've seen was from like lv75 era, but if someone has a source that is significantly newer would you be able to link me? Cause I'd like to read it.
It's two total rolls period. It's super easy to see with WAR and THF because of how obscene their MA rates are. No your not rolling five times and hoping your mediocre DA rate is going to land you two bonus hits. If you have a 42% DA rate (no QA or TA since that muddles this up) then your looking at
I seem to recall some testing that did confirm that only the first two hits were eligible, done by comparing observed MA rate versus the expected MA rate for if all hits were eligible or just the first two.
I think single hit WS while dual wielding are also eligible for another MA chance, but I'm honestly not 100% sure on that.
I always assumed they could since the WS becomes a two hit WS. Though for H2H, not sure. In any case it's definitely not rolling a full MA stack on every hit.
I seem to recall some testing that did confirm that only the first two hits were eligible, done by comparing observed MA rate versus the expected MA rate for if all hits were eligible or just the first two.
I remember the same testing, was done in abyssea or around that time.
That makes a lot more sense. I'll have to recalculate ftp without accounting for multistrikes tbh, it ends up being a lot more complicated that way since multistrikes in WS sets are so damn variable across every job. Only WAR really gets a good advantage in terms of ftp bonuses from multi strikes then given that their base rate is already so damn high in the first place.
Also I didn't say fotia was bad, just that it wasn't as good at 3000 TP because the marginal increase is a lot lower than it is at 1000-2000 TP.
That makes a lot more sense. I'll have to recalculate ftp without accounting for multistrikes tbh, it ends up being a lot more complicated that way since multistrikes in WS sets are so damn variable across every job. Only WAR really gets a good advantage in terms of ftp bonuses from multi strikes then given that their base rate is already so damn high in the first place.
Also I didn't say fotia was bad, just that it wasn't as good at 3000 TP because the marginal increase is a lot lower than it is at 1000-2000 TP.
Normally you maximize two aspects of a WS, first being a stat mod and the second being something like Multi-Attack or WeaponSkillDamage. This is because of how augmented gear works, outside of some crazy DM augments you won't find STR +10 DEX +10 WSD +5 DA +5 on stuff. It becomes a game of min-maxing which is hard with all Multi-Attribute-Dependent abilities. It's why I would like to see VS get a fTP transfer property and TK / DK get 60/60 mods.
Despite that, Raging Fists is probably still good enough if you have those buffs (Warcry + Crystal Blessing). You're stacking STR/WSD on top of 8~9 fTP and get a few bonus additional 1 fTP strikes without the WSD. Upheaval is very similar in this regard. I don't think Raging Fists perform better than Resolution but it should be competitive with Savage Blade given that the base damage on Godhands + hand-to-hand DMG is so much higher than Sequence.
In regards to how multi strikes actually works on weapon skills, I don't think anybody can truly say. The only testing I ever saw was ages ago by rkenshin using SAM weaponskills. It was performed with Y/G/K (1 hit) and even those WS got 2 rolls at DA, or at least seemed to based on his limited testing.
The distributions of multihit procs on WS would be quite different if you could MA on any hit while being capped at 2 procs (versus only being able to MA on the first two).
Spreadsheets do assume that only the first two hits are eligible. I'll try to dig up the actual testing.
I read over that thread a bit and didn't find any of the testing I thought was there. Maybe it's somewhere else. Either way, these conclusions were reached a long time ago before anybody had the means to sensibly collect data. If we truly want to know then we it would need to be retested (unless you can find some very solid evidence of anything somewhere.)
The only case where it matters which hits proc MA are in dual wielding. If MA procs can only happen twice, they can be a stand alone event or first two/last two and it won't matter. the only thing that needs to be determined then is is it one attempt for MH and one for OH when DW and can single hit WS like Fudo actually MA twice?
So I modified my sim to account for two situations :
- delaying ws so that you use WS only after a set amount of TP. It was already doable by changing variables in the .py file but you can do this with the GUI now. For this, click on the WS button and modify the TP@ws option
- Added a tpbonus buff. You can find this under the job ability button (ja5). It only accounts for external sources of tp bonus so for instance for warcry and shiva buff put it @ 1000. The TP bonus from gear is, of course, already accounted for if you specify godhands and moonshade earring under the TP gear and WS gear buttons.
Group has been MNKing to Omen a lot lately and we're closing in on card cap and have a pretty good feel for group dynamics with 3 MNKs. Gonna be trying MNK MNK MNK WAR Albumen and Schah soon (probably within 2 weeks?) to see how it goes. I'll post results here when we do.
Also I don't trust your simulator if it thinks any form of Vere/Smite is beating a 13 ftp WS. MNK dmg split is something like 25-30/75-70 so AM3 adds shitall for damage when it can only proc on the main hand. A 20% gain in crit rate is not going to beat a 5.3 gain on ftp when their base damages at 1000 TP (w/ Godhands) are very similar.
I've already managed to push MNK past 4500 average DPS across 20+ Neaks without maximum buffs already (2 rolls only, no crystal blessing, warcry only up 20% of the time.) Having Warcry and Crystal Blessing fulltime would easily push MNK DPS past 5k in practice given that it boost Raging Fists dmg well past 30k. Even with just 20% Warcry uptime I was still seeing an increase from 21-22k average to 26-27k average during that 20+ Neak parse where we had a WAR present.
RF only has 30/30 split with Vere having 80 on one stat. It's possible he is stat boosting it enough to overcome the fTP discrepancy. RF at 1k is kinda ***though.
Cool that is pretty great to hear, I always love punching things and the Sphairai is like one of my favorite weapons in the game. Nice to see that SE gave you guys some long needed love.
