The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Fiasko
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By Asura.Fiasko 2017-03-10 14:24:25
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Asura.Fiasko said: »
Ejiin how did you get boii calligae to beat an augmented Valorous Greaves (STR/CritDmg) in your MS-Resolution set? With STR/CritDmg augments you would gain 11+ STR and what ever attack augment(+12 base) you got and only lose 1-3CritDmg.

Good catch. Looks like Valorous would need 4+ crit. damage and 10+ STR, though.

Eh thats not so bad if we are already talking about spending 100-400m on DM augments.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-03-10 14:30:16
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Asura.Saevel said: »
And now we see what Ej is really up to.

I did the math..

1000 attacks (4% TA 81% DA)
40 TA = +80 hits
777 DA = + 777 hits
183 SA hits remaining.
Total hits are 1857 for an average of 1.857

1000 attacks (3% QA 4% TA 72% DA)
30 QA = +90 hits
39 TA = +78 hits
670 DA = +670 hits
261 SA hits remaining.
1838 total hits for average of 1.838

And that's without considering accuracy, store TP or +DA damage from JSE cape.

The top is where I am at now and I have barely enough store TP for a 5-hit. I can't even fit in WAR +3 pants because I would lose 11 store TP from that slot. With Chango I can do Pummelers pants. I'm using Flamma head for the Store TP, same with HQ Emicho hands. The hands / body are combo because I can get 7 Store TP and 9 DA with accuracy being a bonus. I can see a well augmented Valorous body / hands being able to do about the same thing.

Looking over the proposed sets I don't see where the store TP is coming from, which makes me believe it's from the cape in the attempt to cover for QA augments.

yeah dude no *** ***when you put 3 QA instead of the potential EIGHTEEN WAR gets
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 14:30:17
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I updated the HQ low accuracy TP set, which is about a 100-150 DPS increase compared to the previous set and easier to obtain than the QA set:

ItemSet 349895

I'll start looking into 3hit sets when you have CC lucky SAM roll. To be clear, 3hit meaning WS+2hits after so roughly 333 TP/hit?
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-03-10 14:31:16
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
I updated the HQ low accuracy TP set, which is about a 100-150 DPS increase compared to the previous set and easier to obtain than the QA set:

ItemSet 349895

I'll start looking into 3hit sets when you have CC lucky SAM roll. To be clear, 3hit meaning WS+2hits after so roughly 333 TP/hit?

yeah
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 14:38:14
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Store TP over DA on Ambuscade capes has been a staple for pretty much any job that can use one. That said I do believe QA is being put on a pedestal. It's good when you can use it but if you end up giving up a 3 hit or otherwise very good gear (high DA, DT when using hybrid sets, etc.) then you're going to end up cutting into your DPS create some other annoying situation.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 14:47:04
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I'm honestly just after what's best. If that means throwing my QA gear away, so be it. The fact is, I've yet to see any combination of TP gear that beats a QA set.

Granted, I have not looked into max STP+SAM roll for 3hit, but I definitely see what you're getting at there and if possible certainly has the potential to surpass the QA set.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 14:49:42
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I also want to add that I don't put a lot of faith in the spreadsheets for anything but weaponskill damage these days. The observed ratio for white damage to WS damage for our last Kirin zerg was off by a factor of 2 (this was for our SAM, so no imagined crit defense trait could have skewed the results.) It's still gonna be better than napkin math though.
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By Odinz 2017-03-10 14:57:13
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
I also want to add that I don't put a lot of faith in the spreadsheets for anything but weaponskill damage these days. The observed ratio for white damage to WS damage for our last Kirin zerg was off by a factor of 2 (this was for our SAM, so no imagined crit defense trait could have skewed the results.) It's still gonna be better than napkin math though.
Neither do I. Ukon is most underrated weapon in game due to those spreadsheets.
In parses it is tearing ***up more often than not in fully buffed situations.
 Asura.Fiasko
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By Asura.Fiasko 2017-03-10 15:03:47
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I guess it would be something like this.
STP on the back to ease the STP requirement on Resolution. For the life of me I can't remember the name of the newish STP belt.
All Valorous/Odyssean have STP 7.
ItemSet 349904
If I did the math right that 97 STP in gear + 15 for /sam + 84 for CC Sam roll for 196 STP. For ragnarok(431 delay) that should be 361 a swing leaving Resolution to make up the 278.
ItemSet 343853
This set should give 265 STP on the first hit of resolution.
122TP Base 84STP Sam roll + 15/sam + 19STP gear for a total of 118STP.

Edited: Changed the Acro Gauntlets to Emicho +1 to fix the bad math. Or add 3 STP and use Acro Gauntlets.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 15:08:21
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
yeah dude no *** ***when you put 3 QA instead of the potential EIGHTEEN WAR gets

WAR doesn't get 18 QA in a single slot and that was a single slot comparison (feet). And since Multi-Attack has diminishing returns it was a comparison that showed QA in the best possible light. The effect of replacing all the gear with QA would of been even more severe.
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-03-10 15:10:18
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Using QA in an isolated slot with the maximum amount of multistrikes loss wouldn't be smart in the first place though, imo. I realize I jumped the gun there and was ruder than I meant to be so I apologize for that, but I also don't think that comparing QA to DA in 1 slot was smart either. I don't think anyone advocates using a QA build without having the whole set, and if you're partially swapping in pieces then I think it'd make sense to swap the feet out last since as you showed, 11 DA ends up being more swings.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 15:15:35
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Using QA in an isolated slot with the maximum amount of multistrikes loss wouldn't be smart in the first place though, imo. I realize I jumped the gun there and was ruder than I meant to be so I apologize for that, but I also don't think that comparing QA to DA in 1 slot was smart either. I don't think anyone advocates using a QA build without having the whole set, and if you're partially swapping in pieces then I think it'd make sense to swap the feet out last since as you showed, 11 DA ends up being more swings.

I chose that slot because it's the absolute best QA and because it's an actual gear comparison. Pummeler's +3 feet vs QA augmented Valorous that Ejiin was choosing. In order to get that 3 QA you need to remove 9 DA. The legs have 11 DA though that slot is often used for Store TP which is a different story. The head is 4 TA which gives the same approximate benefit as 3 QA (QA wins by a hair) but also comes with 5 Store TP. That leaves the Body and Hands are the remaining locations, one is 9DA the other 7 Store TP but you only get the 9 DA if used as a set so makes it easier to compare.

Ejiin was putting his +3 QA into a spreed sheet for every slot and seeing it come out slightly ahead then the other set without considering the context, and to be honest those sheets have been wrong for awhile due to the volume of changes to the game vs the frequency of update / quality control.
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-03-10 15:22:35
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I agree that the spreadsheets are wrong, especially when calculating white damage (SAM spreadsheet says that almost half of Masamune's DPS comes from white damage, LOLNO) but yes I realize you're removing that much DA to add that much QA, however when you do have the full QA build you are effectively diminishing the effect of DA and TA anyway. Swapping one slot doesn't paint the full picture due to the attack priorities. In isolated instances, yes, I completely agree that 11 DA will pummel 3 QA, but within context of a full QA build and other buffs, I can also see the opposite happening.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 15:34:32
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18QA is equivalent to 54 DA in terms of rounds in 1000 swings. It also has proc priority over TA/DA. On top of that, WAR still maintains 66DA in a 18QA set.

1000 swings with 18QA 66DA vs 4TA 81DA is not even close even just glancing at it.

1000 attacks (4% TA 81% DA)
40 TA = +80 hits
777 DA = + 777 hits
183 SA hits remaining.
Total hits are 1857 for an average of 1.857

1000 attacks (18% QA 66% DA)
180 QA = 540 additional hits
541 DA = 541 additional hits
279 none multi hit rounds
Total hits are 2082 for an average of 2.082
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 15:35:32
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Quote:
Store TP over DA on Ambuscade capes has been a staple for pretty much any job that can use one. That said I do believe QA is being put on a pedestal. It's good when you can use it but if you end up giving up a 3 hit or otherwise very good gear (high DA, DT when using hybrid sets, etc.) then you're going to end up cutting into your DPS create some other annoying situation.

And they are very very very stupid for doing that. To support this I'll explain why.

In FFXI the import thing isn't Store TP or Multi-Attack but Time to WS. That is a combination of Haste, Store TP and Multi-Attack measured in full attack rounds. 10 DA and 10 Store TP do the exact same thing, which is lower your time to WS and they do it by the same percentage.

Demonstrate, a fictional weapon that gets 100 TP per swing (just to make this easy)

First with 0 Store TP and 0 Multi-Attack (1.0 Average attacks per round)

100 TP * 1.0 (Store TP bonus) * (1.0 (Average attack round) * 10 (number of rounds)) = 1000 Total TP in 10 Attack Rounds

Now with 10 Store TP
100 TP * 1.10 * (1.0 * 10) = 1100 Total TP in 10 Attack Rounds.

Now with 10 Double Attack
100 TP * 1.0 * (1.10 * 10) = 1100 Total TP in 10 Attack Rounds

The benefit of Multi-Attack over Store TP is that Multi-Attack also gives you free damage from the extra attacks along with increasing your TP gain speed.

In WAR's case this goes even further because you get a 20% damage bonus on all attack rounds that proc a DA, so that two out of those 11 swings would of had +20% damage (14% increase in melee damage). So switching out 10 DA for 10 Store TP just to get 3 QA, which I've already shown is worth less then 9 DA, is reducing your total damage output.


We do things like x-hit to prevent TP from spilling over and tweak our time to WS. Furthermore some WS's don't gain much from overflow TP so extra TP past 1000 isn't worth as much and we're trying to limit that from happening too often. So the result is that we aim for a specific x-hit while stuffing as much Haste / Multi-Attack and accuracy into the build to get the average time to WS as low as possible. Mine is (currently) at 1.857 attacks per round with a base 5-hit which gives me WS + (4/1.857) average attack rounds to 1000 (it's right at 2.15). COR roll gives me a WS + (3/1.857) time to 1000, which is 1.61 after the WS. Basically I WS then immediately afterward WS again, and if the NM attacks me I'll have over 1000TP before the game accepts another WS command. Anyone else can sit down and do this level of optimization, figure out your average attack rounds using the above method (which is stupid easy even for non-math people) then use that with your Store TP to optimize the mix.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 15:37:56
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
18QA is equivalent to 54 DA in terms of rounds in 1000 swings. It also has proc priority over TA/DA. On top of that, WAR still maintains 66DA in a 18QA set.

1000 swings with 18QA 66DA vs 4TA 81DA is not even close even just glancing at it.

1000 attacks (4% TA 81% DA)
40 TA = +80 hits
777 DA = + 777 hits
183 SA hits remaining.
Total hits are 1857 for an average of 1.857

1000 attacks (18% QA 66% DA)
180 QA = 540 additional hits
541 DA = 541 additional hits
279 none multi hit rounds
Total hits are 2082 for an average of 2.082

Where are you getting the extra 33 while also having 18 QA. WAR has a natural 33 (18 + 10 +5) DA and your stuffing all the high DA pieces in favor of 3 QA or completely dumping Store TP from the mix.

2.082/1.857 = 1.1211

So 12% faster attacks but I guarantee I have more then 12 Store TP and thus faster time to 1000. I'm beginning to suspect your spreed sheet has pieces with both Store TP and QA augments on them, which might be possible during DM but super rare if it is.

Just went over that set and your at 22 DA with +10 Store TP mantle or 32 DA with +10 DA mantle. In the latter your going to be a 6-hit with 48 Store TP. The comparison is a 5-hit with 66 Store TP (2 TP over I think). Going from 6 to 5 is a 20% increase in WS frequeny and going from 5 to 4 (after SAM roll) is a 25% increase.

So slightly less but with less accuracy.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 15:46:42
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It's literally the set I first posted vs. whatever you provided in your example. DA in the QA set is: 3body 8earrings 1ring 10back 9belt 2legs with 28 from traits and 5 from merits = 66. It also maintains 28 STP plus 15 from sub, so 43 STP without factoring SAM roll.

You can say sheets are shitty all you want, but until you provide a better metric than just your word, it's the best thing we have to go on outside of eyeball parsing and feels.

Asura.Saevel said: »
So 12% faster attacks but I guarantee I have more then 12 Store TP and thus faster time to 1000. I'm beginning to suspect your spreed sheet has pieces with both Store TP and QA augments on them, which might be possible during DM but super rare if it is.

SAM roll. Pretty much makes all your precious xhits worthless outside of some TP overflow. Outside of the 3hit, of course.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 15:52:36
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
SAM roll. Pretty much makes all your precious xhits worthless outside of some TP overflow. Outside of the 3hit, of course.

Actually it doesn't, not if you do the math right. It just reduces your x-hit by one. 6 Becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, 4 becomes 3 (with CC and perfect).

You've been playing SAM too long and just saying *** x-hit because SAM has so much natural Store TP that after awhile it just stops mattering.

Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
You can say sheets are shitty all you want, but until you provide a better metric than just your word, it's the best thing we have to go on outside of eyeball parsing and feels.

I manually do the math with a mix of excel, calculator and lots of notepads open. The goal is to optimize the mix of stats for faster TP spam along with extra melee damage. I then double check my information just to be sure, like how you think the body is 3 DA when it's really 2. I'm strongly suspecting your sheets are adding bonus Store TP that you don't have or your overflow is set to something like 0.5, because at best case that QA set pulls right behind the comparison one. I say all this because I've already experimented with a QA set and it was inferior to the one I'm normally using.

Getting emo and pulling a Thorva doesn't help anyone.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 15:56:15
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Quote:
Store TP over DA on Ambuscade capes has been a staple for pretty much any job that can use one. That said I do believe QA is being put on a pedestal. It's good when you can use it but if you end up giving up a 3 hit or otherwise very good gear (high DA, DT when using hybrid sets, etc.) then you're going to end up cutting into your DPS create some other annoying situation.

And they are very very very stupid for doing that. To support this I'll explain why.

You don't need to explain your logic. I know what you are thinking. That said, Store TP on an ambuscade cape is far from stupid. Your mean attacks per round increase by adding 10 DA is minute for a lot of jobs (even many 2 handers) whereas the mean increase in TP per strike is not. If you end up losing a 3 hit because you want 10 DA on a cape then I don't know what to say to you. The best models we have predict the results are better with Store TP capes, and even though we know there are flaws in them, I agree with Ejiin. They are currently our best metric. I will take them hands down over your religious intuition.
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By Odinz 2017-03-10 16:09:35
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Its so hard to participate in these threads these days. A certain someone always comes out screaming "blasphemy" if it is outside his experience or contradicts something he believes.

/sigh

Thanks for trying to update sets OP.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 16:23:31
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Quote:
You don't need to explain your logic. I know what you are thinking. That said, Store TP on an ambuscade cape is far from stupid. Your mean attacks per round increase by adding 10 DA is minute for a lot of jobs (even many 2 handers) whereas the mean increase in TP per strike is not. If you end up losing a 3 hit because you want 10 DA on a cape then I don't know what to say to you. The best models we have predict the results are better with Store TP capes, and even though we know there are flaws in them, I agree with Ejiin. They are currently our best metric. I will take them hands down over your religious intuition.

Both Store TP and Multi-Attack experience the exact same rate of diminishing returns....

50 DA
50 Store TP

Adding 10 to each

Store TP First

100 * 1.60 * (1.50 * 10) = 2400 TP in 10 rounds

Then DA

100 * 1.50 * (1.60 * 10) = 2400 TP in 10 rounds

Exact same TP gain but the DA gets bonus damage from extra attacks.

Sacrificing 10 DA off the back for 10 Store TP is a negative in average damage output. Even with the ridiculous amounts of DA I already got, it still ends up being better.

Odinz said: »
Its so hard to participate in these threads these days. A certain someone always comes out screaming "blasphemy" if it is outside his experience or contradicts something he believes.

I help more random people with gear in a single week then the three of you put together. I do this without getting personal or projecting my own insecurities.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 16:36:24
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Quote:
You don't need to explain your logic. I know what you are thinking. That said, Store TP on an ambuscade cape is far from stupid. Your mean attacks per round increase by adding 10 DA is minute for a lot of jobs (even many 2 handers) whereas the mean increase in TP per strike is not. If you end up losing a 3 hit because you want 10 DA on a cape then I don't know what to say to you. The best models we have predict the results are better with Store TP capes, and even though we know there are flaws in them, I agree with Ejiin. They are currently our best metric. I will take them hands down over your religious intuition.

Both Store TP and Multi-Attack experience the exact same rate of diminishing returns....

50 DA
50 Store TP

Adding 10 to each

Store TP First

100 * 1.60 * (1.50 * 10) = 2400 TP in 10 rounds

Then DA

100 * 1.50 * (1.60 * 10) = 2400 TP in 10 rounds

Exact same TP gain but the DA gets bonus damage from extra attacks.

Sacrificing 10 DA off the back for 10 Store TP is a negative in average damage output. Even with the ridiculous amounts of DA I already got, it still ends up being better.

It's not that simple, multi attack performance is a composite function. I think I get something like a 3% marginal gain on averages strikes per round from 10% DA on THF because of how much Triple Attack I have... And again, you didn't account for potential 3 hit build losses. This is the reason we try and model things with spreadsheets. Your intuition/napkin math scramblings can only take you so far.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 16:51:24
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Quote:
It's not that simple, multi attack performance is a composite function. I think I get something like a 3% marginal gain on averages strikes per round from 10% DA on THF because of how much Triple Attack I have... And again, you didn't account for potential 3 hit build losses. This is the reason we try and model things with spreadsheets. Your intuition/napkin math scramblings can only take you so far.

It is that simple. You calculate out your average attack rounds between the two functions. TA is no different then DA or QA, it's just an average for attack rounds. And in this case it's extremely simple because it's not TA vs Store TP but DA vs Store TP in equal quantities. I actually use an excel formula to output attacks per round and average TP gain speed, including the 2s WS delay. On here the simply version is used to demonstrate how the values are related so that others can see and prepare their sets accordingly. THF is one of the exceptions because it's natural TA is so high and it's gear so Store TP starved that it easily surpass's the equivalent of 80% DA which creates a situation where the diminishing returns from Multi-Attack become more severe then the Diminishing Returns from Store TP, until you toss in the Store TP from SAM's roll which cause's the scale to tip in the other direction.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 17:59:52
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Quote:
It's not that simple, multi attack performance is a composite function. I think I get something like a 3% marginal gain on averages strikes per round from 10% DA on THF because of how much Triple Attack I have... And again, you didn't account for potential 3 hit build losses. This is the reason we try and model things with spreadsheets. Your intuition/napkin math scramblings can only take you so far.

It is that simple. You calculate out your average attack rounds between the two functions. TA is no different then DA or QA, it's just an average for attack rounds. And in this case it's extremely simple because it's not TA vs Store TP but DA vs Store TP in equal quantities. I actually use an excel formula to output attacks per round and average TP gain speed, including the 2s WS delay. On here the simply version is used to demonstrate how the values are related so that others can see and prepare their sets accordingly. THF is one of the exceptions because it's natural TA is so high and it's gear so Store TP starved that it easily surpass's the equivalent of 80% DA which creates a situation where the diminishing returns from Multi-Attack become more severe then the Diminishing Returns from Store TP, until you toss in the Store TP from SAM's roll which cause's the scale to tip in the other direction.

You are wrong. Again, it's a composite function.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_composition

There is a processing order for multi attacks and only one of them can occur. If you're talking about marginal gains then you should be looking at the derivatives not the result of the compound function because it masks what is really going on.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=partial+derivatives+of+x+*+4+%2B+(1+-+x)+*+y+*+3+%2B+(1+-+x)+*+(1+-+y)+*+z+*+2+%2B+(1+-+x)+*+(1+-+y)+*+(1+-+z)

x = QA
y = TA
z = DA

Those partial are not linear (this ignores also mythic AM for simplicity) and your napkin math is going to fail if you use the same approach you've demonstrated already in this thread. Take my Herculean Boots for example. I have a QA +3 augmented herculean boots. At 0 initial QA and 0 initial TA, it is better than a TA +4 augmented herculean boots (1.1288 strikes per round versus 1.12). But my performance on THF would be worse if I used it over the TA +4 because of the high natural TA base on THF and the properties of the composite function. Before the augments on the boots, I have 2 QA, 46 TA, and 17 DA. The mean strikes per round for that multi attacks setup is 2.05156. Adding QA +3 increases this to 2.11121 (+0.05965), but adding TA +4 increases it to 2.1233 (+0.07174). Those deltas match up with what the partial derivatives predict and the outcome is unsurprising. Any amount of TA or DA reduces the marginal gains from QA (the same can be said of DA/QA -> TA and TA/QA -> DA).

Either way I've spent more than enough time on this, so I probably won't be posting any more in regards to this discussion. You're sometimes right about what you say but you approach everything with a closed mind and a religious conviction that greatly inhibits you and in this case you are flat out wrong.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 18:47:04
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
There is a processing order for multi attacks and only one of them can occur.

Look above, I demonstrated the sequence order when I calculated out the average attacks per round...

This is just you trying to drag something out to then complain to the mods about disruption.
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By Blazed1979 2017-03-10 19:19:15
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Either way I've spent more than enough time on this, so I probably won't be posting any more in regards to this discussion. You're sometimes right about what you say but you approach everything with a closed mind and a religious conviction that greatly inhibits you and in this case you are flat out wrong.
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By Fenrir.Caiir 2017-03-10 19:32:12
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How many years has it been and still haven't found the on switch for ur thought machine
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By Zillion 2017-03-12 05:40:03
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ItemSet 349941


so im thinking of using this set at the moment with what i have available. opinions? (obv upgrading af of course)

body: str +10 accuracy +34 attack +25 dbl.atk +5
hands: agi +9 accuracy +31 attack +24 dbl.atk +2
back: dex +20 accuracy +30 attack +20 dbl.atk +10
legs: agi +5 accuracy +28 attack +12 store tp +7
 Odin.Speedyjim
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: speedyjim
Posts: 177
By Odin.Speedyjim 2017-03-12 08:18:16
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Can I has those Valorous Mail augs too? :O
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