The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Warrior » The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
First Page 2 3 ... 229 230 231 ... 233 234 235
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 14:38:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
With single-wielding WAR being nowhere near the delay cap, it's also realistic to think a GA WAR could get 2 WS off in nearly the same amount of time that a single-wield WAR can get one WS off, possibly faster.

Especially if you consider retaliation TP (possibly from multiple mobs), the higher TP return from the initial WS, higher TP per hit, and STP on the weapon.

I haven't played WAR so I can't say for certain, but I've played with a shitload of them, including SW and 2H and there's a very noticeable difference in the rate at which they WS.

This is not even close to being true. You forget WS taking 2sec plays a big factor in total delay of TP+WS cycle.

The highest difference in WS frequency between Chango WAR/SAM and Naegling WAR/DRG would be Naegling being 55% slower, but that would require very rare scenario where Chango have only 1TPround to WS, which can only happen with some super high Samurai roll (11+cc) on top of some storeTP focused TP set, sacrificing some survivability.

Realistically Naegling will be only 7~30% slower, having easily over 50% higher WS damage during Warcry and more without it.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 14:54:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Melliny said: »
Laphria's attack speed is its biggest strength. You want to wait until you're close to 2k TP to use disaster, and because of its high attack speed it's just a white damage powerhouse, and disaster is top tier too. It's extremely efficient at killing mobs, and I'm pretty sure it beats out Ukon for seg farms. Ukon has even higher white damage sure, but disaster is so much stronger than ukko's fury that it more than makes up the difference.

The only time you use Ukko's Fury with Ukonvasara is to activate AM3. Otherwise you will use 2500TP+ Upheavals. For Segment farming WS damage on Ukonvasara is kinda irrelevant, because 3 attack rounds takes mob so low, that any WS will kill it. Sometimes if you are lucky with white damage on Ukon, it's better to finish off a mob with just white damage and do 2500-3000TP Upheaval at start on a new target.

I can tell you from experience, that Ukonvasara can be a beast in seg farming, but it has one huge disadvantage that ruins it's effectiveness by a lot. That disadvantage is a random requirements of weapon switching for slashing resistant type of enemies. If you sacrificed DPS to build AM3 on first group and next group is something that requires switching to polearm or mace, then you are in very bad spot. Something like that can happen several times during the run and it completely sucks and makes Ukonvasara very inconsistent weapon for Segments farming.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: maletaru
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-09 15:30:27
Link | Quote | Reply
 
SimonSes said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
With single-wielding WAR being nowhere near the delay cap, it's also realistic to think a GA WAR could get 2 WS off in nearly the same amount of time that a single-wield WAR can get one WS off, possibly faster.

Especially if you consider retaliation TP (possibly from multiple mobs), the higher TP return from the initial WS, higher TP per hit, and STP on the weapon.

I haven't played WAR so I can't say for certain, but I've played with a shitload of them, including SW and 2H and there's a very noticeable difference in the rate at which they WS.

This is not even close to being true. You forget WS taking 2sec plays a big factor in total delay of TP+WS cycle.

The highest difference in WS frequency between Chango WAR/SAM and Naegling WAR/DRG would be Naegling being 55% slower, but that would require very rare scenario where Chango have only 1TPround to WS, which can only happen with some super high Samurai roll (11+cc) on top of some storeTP focused TP set, sacrificing some survivability.

Realistically Naegling will be only 7~30% slower, having easily over 50% higher WS damage during Warcry and more without it.

Seems to me this is only considering attack delay and TP/swing, not considering the TP return of the WS, the TP per hit, and the Retaliation TP.

If a Chango WAR is on a 2-round, what does a Naegling WAR have, a 4-round?
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 15:42:10
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
SimonSes said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
With single-wielding WAR being nowhere near the delay cap, it's also realistic to think a GA WAR could get 2 WS off in nearly the same amount of time that a single-wield WAR can get one WS off, possibly faster.

Especially if you consider retaliation TP (possibly from multiple mobs), the higher TP return from the initial WS, higher TP per hit, and STP on the weapon.

I haven't played WAR so I can't say for certain, but I've played with a shitload of them, including SW and 2H and there's a very noticeable difference in the rate at which they WS.

This is not even close to being true. You forget WS taking 2sec plays a big factor in total delay of TP+WS cycle.

The highest difference in WS frequency between Chango WAR/SAM and Naegling WAR/DRG would be Naegling being 55% slower, but that would require very rare scenario where Chango have only 1TPround to WS, which can only happen with some super high Samurai roll (11+cc) on top of some storeTP focused TP set, sacrificing some survivability.

Realistically Naegling will be only 7~30% slower, having easily over 50% higher WS damage during Warcry and more without it.

Seems to me this is only considering attack delay and TP/swing, not considering the TP return of the WS, the TP per hit, and the Retaliation TP.

If a Chango WAR is on a 2-round, what does a Naegling WAR have, a 4-round?

This is considering everything beside Retaliation, which is very rarely a factor. Yeah Naegling is usually on 3-4 rounds
Offline
Posts: 167
By Atrox78 2024-09-09 15:46:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Retaliation is a huge factor. Kind of absurd you don't think so being an ukon war.
Offline
Posts: 376
By Kaffy 2024-09-09 15:49:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'm still mostly a scrub WAR but retaliation on Ambu Meeble is too good, definitely enjoyed having Chango for that fight. I would sometimes hit 2-2.5k tp when the animation for the last upheaval was finishing.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-09-09 16:07:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
SimonSes said: »
You forget WS taking 2sec plays a big factor in total delay of TP+WS cycle.
SimonSes said: »
This is considering everything beside Retaliation, which is very rarely a factor.

I have seen Retaliation proc during the WS animation and instantly have TP for the next WS while using Gaxe, which sort of negates the 2-second delay cycle to an extent, since you immediately have tp to ws right away. Now that all depends on if monsters are facing you since tank could easily apply hate and make it hard for mobs to target you. I guess you mean "Rarely" in that instance.

The real drawback of Retaliation is that it lowers movement speed, and in Sheol C, unless you're using Shneddick Ring, you will fall behind on getting to camps and engaging in a timely fashion, unless you cancel it to run to the next camp, but then you won't have max uptime on it, so its less of a factor all of the time. Actually you'll still fall behind running with Retaliation+Shneddick Ring anyways, since you will be slower than 18% movement, but it is much more manageable especially on closer camps
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: maletaru
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-09 16:18:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Guess it depends on strategy employed. When we do segs it's very rare for any mobs to be slept and we don't bring a tank, so typically each melee will have 1-4 enemies on them at a time, depending on the floor, spread of enemies, whether there's a halo, etc. Our WARs are always Retaliating at least 1 mob, sometimes 3-4.

I'm sure it's much less (or not at all) a factor if you're pulling 10 packs together with a PLD and sleeping them, I've never experienced anything like that.
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 16:41:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You guys keep changing the goal post. Ofc Retaliation is a huge factor when you are soling or tanking something, but we have been saying mostly about Segment farming and endgame. afaik non of the sortie bosses uses attacks that can be retaliated. During segment farming you might get hate on Agon mobs I guess, everything else should die after WS and you wont pull hate before WS, unless we are talking about some niche setup without tank. Agon mobs still wont always hit you reliably, they might TP move or cast a spell and there is big chance someone else will hop on your Agon mob too and kill it with WS just after your WS (or someone can WS before you).

Atrox78 said: »
Retaliation is a huge factor. Kind of absurd you don't think so being an ukon war.

Again, stop changing the goal post, it was a Naegling vs Chango WS frequency argument. Ukonvasara can easily pull hate after 1-2 juicy rounds of crits, but Ukonvasara wasn't a part of this discussion.

afaik also in Segments farming, you will hold tp to like 2000+ with Chango, both to have enough damage with Upheaval and to take mob low enough with white damage to actually kill it right? I haven't really used Chango there, so I'm sorry, but I simply don't know. Knowing mobs HP there though, I can imagine that you need to take like ~15-20k with white damage and 50-55k with WS to kill a trash mob. So in theory your WS frequency with Chango could be very similar to WS frequency with Naegling, which needs much less TP. Now if you decide to just throw two WSs done asap above 1000TP, then whole WS frequency point is mute for Segment farming, because it doesn't matter if you have even 50% higher WS frequency if you need to make twice more WSs.
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 16:47:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Guess it depends on strategy employed. When we do segs it's very rare for any mobs to be slept and we don't bring a tank, so typically each melee will have 1-4 enemies on them at a time, depending on the floor, spread of enemies, whether there's a halo, etc. Our WARs are always Retaliating at least 1 mob, sometimes 3-4.

This is very risky setup imo. Many mobs in segment farming has some shitty TP moves, that you simply don't want to get with on DD. Mostly all form of absorb/dispel are just really bad.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-09-09 16:52:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
In my experience, the ones that drain or dispel buffs are Malboros or Dahaks, both squishy enough to die in one WS, but if you don't think you can reliably one shot them, you would normally TP them down to around 70% and then WS. Should die without getting a WS off and this is how we used to handle them in weaker geared seg groups before the power creep
[+]
Offline
Posts: 83
By CrAZYVIC 2024-09-09 16:58:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I believe that the weapon you use depends on the content you're playing if you want "top-tier" performance.

For farming Segments-C:

Naegling, using WAR/DRG, tends to take off at least 75% of the enemies' HP, preventing them from using TP moves, which can affect the run's performance. With Chango, you should WS at 2250 TP, and with Ukkon at 1750 TP, as the latter tends to reduce the HP enough for a WS at 2k to finish off the enemy.

Dolichenus, if you can get 5-hit or 6-hit Decimations (using the Tatenashi set), can reach Naegling's level for Segments-C farming. I see this weapon like Howling Fist or Tornado Kick.

For farming Dynamis Divergence W1/W2:
I think Chango, with a 4-hit build using Samurai Roll, WSing at 1250 TP, essentially turns you into a Baby-SAM.

WS-Return at 250 TP is a bit higher, but I manage it like this to ensure the build works:

First Round: 500 and 750 Double Attack
Second Round: 1000 and 1250 Double Attack

After two rounds, you're at 1250 TP, and as Taint mentioned, the damage from Upheaval will show up on the parse.

Using Naegling in this scenario isn’t as effective because it gets TP slower compared to the 4-hit Chango build I mentioned earlier.

Regarding Ukkon:

I think I, along with others, am in the same situation as the "Emo-Knights" who want a Scythe meta to maintain the "identity of the job."

Ukkon is the weapon that best reflects WAR's identity: dealing heavy, brute-force hits with a gigantic axe, having massive white damage, etc. That's why many Warriors are drawn to this weapon.

If I could add a meme, Ukkon’s slogan would be: "I feel like a Warrior," similar to the song "I feel like a woman."

How I personally use Ukkon:

I follow Simon’s strategy for bosses, holding TP until 2500. However, for farming W1/W2 and Segments-C, I focus on maintaining AM at level 2 instead of level 3—before you crucify me for this.

Yes, SAM and DRG can easily recharge 3000 TP every 3 minutes, but WAR cannot. That's why I do this. I need to switch targets quickly and WS even at 1000 TP with Upheaval, even on weaker enemies. If I hold TP, SAMs and DRKs will shred the enemies with their Tachi: Fudos/Torcleavers, and I’ll just be watching the HP bars drop from 90% to 0%.

In conclusion:

I noticed Melphina started talking about Prime Weapons. Which is the best prime for WAR: Helheim or Laphria?

I don’t know much about these weapons, but Helheim’s FTP is 3.3, 6.6, and 9.9, which seems inferior to Caladbolg for PLD/DRK since Torcleaver has 4.75, 7.5, and 9.7, plus the 50% chance of dealing triple damage (I know we’re not talking about DRK here).

She mentioned that Laphria is better than Chango.

Could you share your opinion on these weapons? Thank you.
Offline
By K123 2024-09-09 17:12:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
If the 1st WS doesn't kill the mob and you ws a second time it will have sc damage in the log and on the parse even if it had 0 HP to actually take that damage. That's the point I'm making.
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 17:15:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
CrAZYVIC said: »
I don’t know much about these weapons, but Helheim’s FTP is 3.3, 6.6, and 9.9, which seems inferior to Caladbolg for PLD/DRK since Torcleaver has 4.75, 7.5, and 9.7, plus the 50% chance of dealing triple damage (I know we’re not talking about DRK here).

Fimbulvetr has similar fTP, but it has 60%STR/60%VIT mods instead of 80%VIT on Torcleaver, which is significantly stronger. Helheim also has Triple damage procs with stage 5. They are reduced to first hit only and I think the rate is more like 30%, but its still something and it's always on, regardless of aftermath. Aftermath is another factor with 8-12% PDL.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-09-09 17:29:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
K123 said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
If the 1st WS doesn't kill the mob and you ws a second time it will have sc damage in the log and on the parse even if it had 0 HP to actually take that damage. That's the point I'm making.

Actually it can't do skillchain damage if the enemy has 0 health left. If a SC goes off, that means the second WS didn't kill it, but the subsequent SC damage does, but it has to have at least 1 health left. Now if the monster has 1 HP remaining and your SC damage is 50k, the entire 50k will be counted on the parse towards your skillchain damage, just the same as if you Naegling something at 1% for 50k, you get all damage applied. Honestly, parses are a bad tool to use because it doesn't account for fake damage at all, all it does is read your log damage and counts it in a scoreboard. This is why I do not care if people parse 8-9m in seg farming, because at least 30% of it is virtual damage.
[+]
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: maletaru
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-09 17:53:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
SimonSes said: »
You guys keep changing the goal post. Ofc Retaliation is a huge factor when you are soling or tanking something, but we have been saying mostly about Segment farming and endgame.

I haven't moved a single goalpost the entire time; I've always been referring to segment farming and WAR is always retaliating in my experience in a seg farm situation. I'm sorry if my segment farming experience is "niche" but my groups on Carbuncle aren't affected by your Asura meta. Even if the Chango WAR in this example is only facing a single mob, it's still retaliating against that mob (unless the tank is holding hate on all mobs the entire time) so Retaliation is still a factor.

In fact, I didn't move the goalposts so badly, I mentioned this in my first post on the topic:

Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Especially if you consider retaliation TP (possibly from multiple mobs), the higher TP return from the initial WS, higher TP per hit, and STP on the weapon.

SimonSes said: »
This is very risky setup imo. Many mobs in segment farming has some shitty TP moves, that you simply don't want to get with on DD. Mostly all form of absorb/dispel are just really bad.

We routinely full clear Sheol C pretty much every night unless someone is 2boxing one of the DDs, and even then we often full clear anyway. Mobs get TP moves off EXTREMELY rarely because at least for the first 2 floors, everyone is 1shotting them. For the 1~2 packs that can dispel, I just hold TP slightly longer to 1-shot them, use warcry/ancient circle, or team up with a weaker DPS (COR+BRD). Things that are "dangerous" like slimes/penguins still don't 1shot, you have to be hit by multiple aoe at once (or be countered 4 times in a row into a TP move) to actually die, so it's very safe if you know what you're doing and play well.

I guess it would be risky if you're playing with 5 idiots you've never met and couldn't rely on; I don't find it to be very risky at all. We've never had a wipe and have like...maybe 1 death every few runs, typically when someone does something stupid like run off to a different pack before the rest of the group without saying anything and overpulls.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-09-09 17:58:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
K123 said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
If the 1st WS doesn't kill the mob and you ws a second time it will have sc damage in the log and on the parse even if it had 0 HP to actually take that damage. That's the point I'm making.

Thats ... not how that works.

SC's are considered an entirely separate attack and no not occur if the monster does not have at least 1 HP after the closing WS.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-09-09 18:00:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
K123 said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
If the 1st WS doesn't kill the mob and you ws a second time it will have sc damage in the log and on the parse even if it had 0 HP to actually take that damage. That's the point I'm making.

Actually it can't do skillchain damage if the enemy has 0 health left. If a SC goes off, that means the second WS didn't kill it, but the subsequent SC damage does, but it has to have at least 1 health left. Now if the monster has 1 HP remaining and your SC damage is 50k, the entire 50k will be counted on the parse towards your skillchain damage, just the same as if you Naegling something at 1% for 50k, you get all damage applied. Honestly, parses are a bad tool to use because it doesn't account for fake damage at all, all it does is read your log damage and counts it in a scoreboard. This is why I do not care if people parse 8-9m in seg farming, because at least 30% of it is virtual damage.

This is why I liked using Kparse (when it worked), you can see the damage per-monster and figure out how much overkill is taking place. From my personal experience Savage Bros are doing a good 10~30% overkill depending on the monster.
Offline
Posts: 376
By Kaffy 2024-09-09 18:01:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
And we're back to our regularly scheduled program, where we /flex over seg C runs. Stay tuned and don't miss an episode!
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-09-09 18:08:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
We have been talking about segments this entire time and were simply comparing pros and cons of naegling vs the axes. I think many people exaggerate how much "weaker" Ukon/Chango is vs Naegling. It's not so significant that it drastically lower your segments output as was suggested. You can use a number of weapons with success on WAR and still full clear. This idea that you're gimping your group if you use an axe over a sword is nonsense.
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-09 19:05:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
We routinely full clear Sheol C pretty much every night

Every setup can be perfected and made highly effective and it's even easier if you have R30 and Primes. Doesn't change the fact it's objectively risky setup for players who aren't at the top or/and in static. If someone progressed that far he wouldn't need all those advices or guides for something he clears daily.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-09-09 19:11:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
We have been talking about segments this entire time and were simply comparing pros and cons of naegling vs the axes. I think many people exaggerate how much "weaker" Ukon/Chango is vs Naegling. It's not so significant that it drastically lower your segments output as was suggested. You can use a number of weapons with success on WAR and still full clear. This idea that you're gimping your group if you use an axe over a sword is nonsense.

I find Chango / Heim to be better then Savage Bro builds, though Savage builds are much easier to use. 6+ min remaining full clears with me on Chango or Heim.
[+]
Offline
By K123 2024-09-09 19:16:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
K123 said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
If the 1st WS doesn't kill the mob and you ws a second time it will have sc damage in the log and on the parse even if it had 0 HP to actually take that damage. That's the point I'm making.

Actually it can't do skillchain damage if the enemy has 0 health left. If a SC goes off, that means the second WS didn't kill it, but the subsequent SC damage does, but it has to have at least 1 health left. Now if the monster has 1 HP remaining and your SC damage is 50k, the entire 50k will be counted on the parse towards your skillchain damage, just the same as if you Naegling something at 1% for 50k, you get all damage applied. Honestly, parses are a bad tool to use because it doesn't account for fake damage at all, all it does is read your log damage and counts it in a scoreboard. This is why I do not care if people parse 8-9m in seg farming, because at least 30% of it is virtual damage.
Hmm, well I suppose more mobs have more like 80k HP than 70k in Sheol C than I thought then because I see sc damage a lot on SAM if doing 35-40k ws a lot. Either way, that is the point I'm making about virtual damage and why Naegling is better anyway.
 Asura.Melliny
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 605
By Asura.Melliny 2024-09-09 20:11:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
I think many people exaggerate how much "weaker" Ukon/Chango is vs Naegling.

I speak from experience when I say this. Nageling does more dps output than ukon if you aren't making skillchains and it IS noticable. I've run seg farms war/sam and played with both chango and naegling before I got my prime. Typically I'd use naegling on floors 1 and 2 and chango on floors 3 and 4. But honestly just using naegling on floors 3 and 4 felt just as good if not better anyway. I would have probably been better off just going /drg and using the stupid sword the whole time, but I just like using G axe.

Now Laphria on the other hand is another story. I use Laphria on floors 1 through 4 and it feels stronger than naegling the entire time. I know parse damage is pretty meaningless in segs so I won't even bother mentioning, but Laphria is the consistent winner in every category. It's not by a huge milestone, but it's enough to make G axe beat out sword for once, and that's a satisfying feeling. Up until now naegling has just been so strong that it's been the defacto slashing BiS for almost anything, but Laphria's power level is so high it surpasses it. I'm sitting on stage 4 with 4.25 million galla saved up. I'll be making Laphria my second stage 5 when I hit 5 mil. It's strong enough that I feel it's worth the investment.

I can't speak for the other 2 handed weapons from personal experience because I've only ever used chango and laphria. But I have no regrets with my pick. The white damage is second only to ukonvasara, and the disaster numbers are higher than savage blade if but only by a small margin. The amount of time it takes to tp great axe to 2K is comparable enough to what it takes to get sword off at 1k that Laphria is just the better option. Naegling DOES have a slightly higher weaponskill frequency, and its total weaponskill damage in a run is also slightly higher because of that, but laphria's white damage gives it the staying power to win out. That dinky naegling is ok for white damage, but it's nothing compared to a hukling great axe dealing double damage (soon to be triple at stage 5) every so often. And that also makes clean and effecient kills. I can start chopping away at a mob at full health, and by the time I'm at 2k TP it'll be down low enough that disaster just finishes the job. There's never a need for a second weaponskill, unlike naegling which often leaves mobs at 10-15% on floor 3 and 4. Unless of course disaster misses... you do notice that 5% whiff rate. But it's worth it. Alternatively you can also just switch to a mob at 15-20% health and chop away a couple swings to finish that one and then swap to a fresh mob at full HP and lay into it with a 2k disaster with the tp you stored up. Great axe is cool like that.

I've posted my laphria tp set before but it's been a while. This is what I'm using. It takes advantage of the inherent DA rate on the G axe. Since Laphria itself has 7% DA rate I swapped to empyrean feet along with the legs. That just raises white damage all the higher.

ItemSet 394686
[+]
Offline
Posts: 319
By zixxer 2024-09-10 03:47:31
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Melliny said: »
Quote:
I think many people exaggerate how much "weaker" Ukon/Chango is vs Naegling.

I speak from experience when I say this. Nageling does more dps output than ukon if you aren't making skillchains and it IS noticable. I've run seg farms war/sam and played with both chango and naegling before I got my prime. Typically I'd use naegling on floors 1 and 2 and chango on floors 3 and 4. But honestly just using naegling on floors 3 and 4 felt just as good if not better anyway. I would have probably been better off just going /drg and using the stupid sword the whole time, but I just like using G axe.

Now Laphria on the other hand is another story. I use Laphria on floors 1 through 4 and it feels stronger than naegling the entire time. I know parse damage is pretty meaningless in segs so I won't even bother mentioning, but Laphria is the consistent winner in every category. It's not by a huge milestone, but it's enough to make G axe beat out sword for once, and that's a satisfying feeling. Up until now naegling has just been so strong that it's been the defacto slashing BiS for almost anything, but Laphria's power level is so high it surpasses it. I'm sitting on stage 4 with 4.25 million galla saved up. I'll be making Laphria my second stage 5 when I hit 5 mil. It's strong enough that I feel it's worth the investment.

I can't speak for the other 2 handed weapons from personal experience because I've only ever used chango and laphria. But I have no regrets with my pick. The white damage is second only to ukonvasara, and the disaster numbers are higher than savage blade if but only by a small margin. The amount of time it takes to tp great axe to 2K is comparable enough to what it takes to get sword off at 1k that Laphria is just the better option. Naegling DOES have a slightly higher weaponskill frequency, and its total weaponskill damage in a run is also slightly higher because of that, but laphria's white damage gives it the staying power to win out. That dinky naegling is ok for white damage, but it's nothing compared to a hukling great axe dealing double damage (soon to be triple at stage 5) every so often. And that also makes clean and effecient kills. I can start chopping away at a mob at full health, and by the time I'm at 2k TP it'll be down low enough that disaster just finishes the job. There's never a need for a second weaponskill, unlike naegling which often leaves mobs at 10-15% on floor 3 and 4. Unless of course disaster misses... you do notice that 5% whiff rate. But it's worth it. Alternatively you can also just switch to a mob at 15-20% health and chop away a couple swings to finish that one and then swap to a fresh mob at full HP and lay into it with a 2k disaster with the tp you stored up. Great axe is cool like that.

I've posted my laphria tp set before but it's been a while. This is what I'm using. It takes advantage of the inherent DA rate on the G axe. Since Laphria itself has 7% DA rate I swapped to empyrean feet along with the legs. That just raises white damage all the higher.

ItemSet 394686

Hmmm... I was pretty set on making the gun but now I'm considering this instead. I haven't put any love to my warrior since odyssey was cleared.
Offline
By K123 2024-09-10 04:15:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Parse damage is pointless as we're all saying though. The #1 factor in Sheol C is to kill mobs fast and reliably, whre Naegling is king. Even if you could do the same ws damage, 99% acc vs 95% acc makes naegling the better choice.

Dynamis D it doesn't matter what you use really, Gaxe could win if they have high HP values but I've never bothered to go as WAR.
Offline
Posts: 9079
By SimonSes 2024-09-10 04:29:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
K123 said: »
Even if you could do the same ws damage, 99% acc vs 95% acc makes naegling the better choice.

If you care that much for efficiency of your Seg farm, then why even go WAR? Just go DRG.
Optimizing beyond full clear only have sense, if you enjoy doing shorter full clear over slightly longer full clear, but using different setups to not get bored.
[+]
Offline
By Dodik 2024-09-10 04:30:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sheol C is about as meaningful content as capping merits. What is even this discussion, literally talking about doing 98% dmg vs 99% dmg ffs.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 1158
By Seun 2024-09-10 05:05:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Daddy's approval is directly proportional to your share of the parse. Don't let me down, son.
Offline
By K123 2024-09-10 06:29:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Dodik said: »
Sheol C is about as meaningful content as capping merits. What is even this discussion, literally talking about doing 98% dmg vs 99% dmg ffs.
He specifically asked about Sheol C and Dynamis, so people replied about Sheol C.

It's also nothing about 98% vs 99%, it's about speed. Damage total on a parser =/= speed at clearing. Naegling wins, using Gaxe is pointless except for the enjoyment and if you have 5 people that let you play how you want for your $12.99.
[+]
First Page 2 3 ... 229 230 231 ... 233 234 235