The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By 2021-10-20 20:00:14
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By Serjero 2021-10-20 23:55:20
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Fencer caps at 8 ranks. You are already at 7 w/ Blurred +1 and War Beads. Not to mention it's only a 30 TP bonus for that final rank so it effectively isn't better than using Nyame or Sakpata hands/legs.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 02:21:48
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Serjero said: »
Fencer caps at 8 ranks. You are already at 7 w/ Blurred +1 and War Beads. Not to mention it's only a 30 TP bonus for that final rank so it effectively isn't better than using Nyame or Sakpata hands/legs.

Yep, thats why in my practical scenario calculations I used shield and neck only, which is what people actually use :)
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 06:02:17
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Crossbones said: »
Who are these DDs you guys are running with that keep WSing at 5%?

I mean first Savage Blade from WAR usually leave mob at around 25-10% at floors 2-4. What you do then to finish it? I guess you could do what I do on Ukon and melee it for tp and kill with white damage and WS mobs around it. If you dont have anyone in the group with high white damage tho, all those mobs you WSed will need to be finish off from 10-25% with another WS.

Crossbones said: »
If a war kills a mob at 2% with an ukon crit should that damage be dismissed also?

It should, but it happens very rarely. More often it's at 5-10% and one Ukon hit is usually between 3-14k, not 50k+.

Crossbones said: »
Either way use w/e you want. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just that in the dozens and dozens of runs I've done they come out basically the same and both are viable, which IMO is useful info for new players that can get hooked up with sakpata clears but don't have chango yet. They can cover two damage types and be competitive DPS wise.

I agree. I just don't think parse is a good tool to compare builds in Segments. Like I said many times, what should be compared is kill speed and segments reward across many runs (randomness of the floors plays huge role. Ukon for example has a problem, when you need to switch from Ukon to blunt/piercing few times on one floor and reapply AM3). So yeah, just use what works for you and experiment if you want :)
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By Asura.Noxie 2021-10-21 08:39:45
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SimonSes said: »
Crossbones said: »
Either way use w/e you want. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just that in the dozens and dozens of runs I've done they come out basically the same and both are viable, which IMO is useful info for new players that can get hooked up with sakpata clears but don't have chango yet. They can cover two damage types and be competitive DPS wise.

I agree. I just don't think parse is a good tool to compare builds in Segments. Like I said many times, what should be compared is kill speed and segments reward across many runs (randomness of the floors plays huge role. Ukon for example has a problem, when you need to switch from Ukon to blunt/piercing few times on one floor and reapply AM3). So yeah, just use what works for you and experiment if you want :)

I might also add that I don't think anyone was suggesting that SB Fencer isn't viable in segs. It certainly is viable, especially for people that need segs but haven't built Chango yet. But is it equivalent to /sam Chango? In my opinion, no it isn't. With so many people hitting mobs, WSing on an almost-dead mob is going to happen... rather frequently even. Overkill damage then becomes notable because while it does pad the parse numbers, it doesn't contribute to the clear speed... and both SB and Judgment can generate heaps of overkill damage over the course of a run.

Also, whether using Chango or Fencer, it generally takes the same number of weaponskills to kill a mob, especially floor 2+. So I know I'm restating myself but assuming we're using the parse for comparison and assuming two warriors using Upheaval/Impulse w/ Chango and Fencer SB/Judgment both ended the run with similar overall damage parses, then logic would dictate that Chango contributed more to that clear speed by virtue of higher WS frequency but with less overkill parse padding.
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-10-21 10:12:58
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How's Ukon in segments with /SAM compared to Naegling/SB Fencer build or Chango sub SAM? I'd like an excuse to make one. Honestly the Naegling/SB/Fencer builds are slow and rather boring at this point.

I wish staff had better physical WS so that it'd be a nicer substitute for club on Fencer build...
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-21 11:00:36
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Dridian42 said: »
Shiva.Flowen said:
"2k from 1k TP" is an exaggeration

War 97 = 500 TP Bonus
Mater WAR has 730 TP bonus with 230 from Job Points. Add the Moonshade Earring for 250 TP bonus and then you'll get 980 TP bonus. Just simply having the Blurred Shield with Fencer+1 gives an additional 50 TP Bonus.

So, yes I'm sorry but it's not an exaggeration.

You said:

Dridian42 said: »
but with Fencer and it's ability to hit 2k TP from 1k TP

But you're including moonshade which has nothing to do with fencer, hence the exaggeration statement.

Dridian42 said: »
Actually there's also the Relic Hands and Empy Legs for another Fencer +3 or 150 TP Bonus, total of 1230 TP Bonus.

And do you use these pieces in your ws set? I think fencer caps and the small boost to tp bonus wont be better than wsd pieces for any ws that wants tp bonus.

The reality is you will have +2 from blurred shield +1 and JSE neck. So fencer build = +830 tp bonus. Very very strong, but shy of the +1000 from fernagu.

I'm not saying DW Tp bonus is necessarily better overall than a fencer build but it is situational. Your comments suggests fencer build vs dw is no contest which isnt true.
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By Spookyfish89 2021-10-21 11:30:47
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Wouldn't the WSDMG+ from Blurred Shield +1 and /DRG traits give it that edge needed to beat it(along with not needing the accuracy boost needed to cap accuracy on a non-ilvl OH)?

Edit: And the loss of DA/STP to meet DW cap
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-21 11:41:17
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Spookyfish89 said: »
Wouldn't the WSDMG+ from Blurred Shield +1 and /DRG traits give it that edge needed to beat it(along with not needing the accuracy boost needed to cap accuracy on a non-ilvl OH)?

Edit: And the loss of DA/STP to meet DW cap

The ws damage should work out very similar in theory. It comes down to higher frequency from increased tp gain rate, which as I mentioned is situational (depending on buffs including main or sub haste samba, sets including acc swaps needed to enable tp bonus etc)
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 14:29:22
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Spookyfish89 said: »
Wouldn't the WSDMG+ from Blurred Shield +1 and /DRG traits give it that edge needed to beat it(along with not needing the accuracy boost needed to cap accuracy on a non-ilvl OH)?

Edit: And the loss of DA/STP to meet DW cap

I literally described this all on last page...
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 14:33:58
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
But you're including moonshade which has nothing to do with fencer, hence the exaggeration statement.

Like I said, moonshade working for everything, doesn't mean you can't say that Fencer build has over 1000 TP bonus. Same as you can say /Fernagu build has 1250TP bonus. Semantics. You knew exactly what he meant, but you decided to catch him for his wording anyway. Pointless.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-21 14:53:01
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SimonSes said: »
Spookyfish89 said: »
Wouldn't the WSDMG+ from Blurred Shield +1 and /DRG traits give it that edge needed to beat it(along with not needing the accuracy boost needed to cap accuracy on a non-ilvl OH)?

Edit: And the loss of DA/STP to meet DW cap

I literally described this all on last page...

Your post on the last page is geared towards a situation that is better for single wield.

SimonSes said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
But you're including moonshade which has nothing to do with fencer, hence the exaggeration statement.

Like I said, moonshade working for everything, doesn't mean you can't say that Fencer build has over 1000 TP bonus. Same as you can say /Fernagu build has 1250TP bonus. Semantics. You knew exactly what he meant, but you decided to catch him for his wording anyway. Pointless.

No lol.. he said "Fencer and it's ability to hit 2k TP from 1k TP" and then went on to say adding fencer + gear is going to give 1230 TP bonus which is beyond the cap of the ability, so there was clearly some confusion on the benefits of fencer on his part and I was helping to clarify.

To be clear, I love a fencer build. And i'm not being harsh for no reason, just stating it isnt as black and white as those newer to fencer builds think. The original discussion was based on offhand (and therefore dwing) - if those interested want to optimize dw we should share the relevant information.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 15:01:19
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
No lol.. he said "Fencer and it's ability to hit 2k TP from 1k TP" and then went on to say adding fencer + gear is going to give 1230 TP bonus which is beyond the cap of the ability, so there was clearly some confusion on the benefits of fencer on his part and I was helping to clarify.

He meant 1080 TP bonus from 830 Fencer and 250 Moonshade. He then went defensive and trying to figure out even more tp bonus because you forced him to do it.

What he should wrote instead is sentence "Fencer and it's ability to hit 2k TP from 1k TP" is true, because Fencer has ability to hit 2k from 1k with innate 830TP from Fencer VII and Moonshade earring. It's semantics and you know it.

Shiva.Flowen said: »
Your post on the last page is geared towards a situation that is better for single wield.

How?
There is no situation context in any info I provided on last page. It's a pure comparison between TP gain with Fencer and /Fernagu.
 
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By 2021-10-21 15:07:28
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-21 16:17:43
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SimonSes said: »
He then went defensive and trying to figure out even more tp bonus because you forced him to do it.

LOL this is ridiculous. You are keen to make positive and corrective assumptions and read between the lines for one persons comments but read others with the worst of intentions? Get a grip and stay on topic please, this is a discussion on the situational effectiveness of current warrior options, not a soap opera.
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2021-10-21 16:31:59
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LOL failed attempt to put a gif ...
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By Spookyfish89 2021-10-21 17:39:25
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SimonSes said: »
I literally described this all on last page...

Good for you, I'm not interested in the last page as I'm referring to Flowens post right above mine.

Also you covered /DNC DW and Fencer situations, nothing about /DRG so I'm not sure why you have a stick up your *** over me replying to Flowen.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 17:54:11
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Spookyfish89 said: »
SimonSes said: »
I literally described this all on last page...

Good for you, I'm not interested in the last page as I'm referring to Flowens post right above mine.

Also you covered /DNC DW and Fencer situations, nothing about /DRG so I'm not sure why you have a stick up your *** over me replying to Flowen.

SimonSes said: »
Naegling /DRG vs /Fernagu /NIN we have:
Naegling 240 delay * 0.3125 = 75 delay, so 1TP per delay
/Fernagu 508 delay * 0.2 = 103.18 delay, so 1.124TP per delay
So in reality DW has only 12.4% faster TP gain, but keep in mind you need to sacrifice 10%DA or 10sTP on cape for 10%DW (I dont think Emicho and Suppa are still bis over DW cape), so in reality this will be several % lower.

Instead of being angry that I pointed out your pointless post you should learn to read.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 17:56:25
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
SimonSes said: »
He then went defensive and trying to figure out even more tp bonus because you forced him to do it.

LOL this is ridiculous. You are keen to make positive and corrective assumptions and read between the lines for one persons comments but read others with the worst of intentions? Get a grip and stay on topic please, this is a discussion on the situational effectiveness of current warrior options, not a soap opera.

Then stay on topic and answer this

SimonSes said: »
How?
There is no situation context in any info I provided on last page. It's a pure comparison between TP gain with Fencer and /Fernagu.

No idea why you bother to answer half of my post, the part that from your pov is not on topic and choose to ignore the part that is on topic, then ask me to stay on topic. Logic.
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By Spookyfish89 2021-10-21 17:57:27
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SimonSes said: »
Instead of being angry that I pointed out you pointless post you should learn to read.

Where in that post did you factor in wsdmg like I suggested would help it pull ahead? No where did I bring up tp gain.

Pointless like you pointing out something irrelevant last page to feel good about yourself?
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 18:03:06
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Spookyfish89 said: »
SimonSes said: »
Instead of being angry that I pointed out you pointless post you should learn to read.

Where in that post did you factor in wsdmg like I suggested would help it pull ahead? No where did I bring up tp gain.

Pointless like you pointing out something irrelevant last page to feel good about yourself?

SimonSes said: »
/Fernagu has 170 TP bonus advantage, which is around 5.5% higher Savage damage. That's almost entirely countered with Blurred shield +1.

I guess its really hard to read.
Logically if WSD and 170TP bonus evens out, /DRG 7%WSD will push it ahead, but /DRG is losing in TP gain like described above. Im pointing, that your post is pointless not to feel better, but to show that you asking questions that are answered at the end of previous page. I even answered more questions than you asked.
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By Spookyfish89 2021-10-21 18:42:18
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I looked back and skimmed through your post, pardon me for not being that invested in your posts Simon.

My question was still directed at Flowens comment that fencer being no contest vs dw w/ fernagu is actually the case factoring in accuracy needed(which you even said you didn't include) for the Fernagu on any relevant content.

Also, not mad. Just no patience for condescending people
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By SimonSes 2021-10-21 19:01:04
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Spookyfish89 said: »
I looked back and skimmed through your post, pardon me for not being that invested in your posts Simon.

My question was still directed at Flowens comment that fencer being no contest vs dw w/ fernagu is actually the case factoring in accuracy needed(which you even said you didn't include) for the Fernagu on any relevant content.

Also, not mad. Just no patience for condescending people

I haven't included accuracy, because that scenario specific and you would need to provide scenario context for it. That being said only relevant content where Fernagu would require special accuracy build is probably wave 3 dynamis. For segment farming Honor and Madrigal should be enough, tho you can make a point that 5th song could be something else than madrigal, but I think Madrigal is the most logical 5th song (after honor march, victory march and 2x minuet), because BRD will need madrigal too and possibly someone else.
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By Bahamut.Negan 2021-10-22 02:37:33
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Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »


LOL failed attempt to put a gif ...

Here you go Yiaz!




<3
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By Starbucks 2021-10-22 04:35:13
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So how about that Fu?
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2021-10-22 06:57:28
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Bahamut.Negan said: »
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »


LOL failed attempt to put a gif ...

Here you go Yiaz!




<3

I feel like a children...
 Carbuncle.Yiazmaat
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2021-10-22 07:50:17
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Starbucks said: »
Can you tell me how you beat Fu? Can it be done without Monberaux or Ygnas?

It can be done w/o these two trusts it just takes longer cause youll have to wait for whm to refill mp after each ebullient phase.
Need fire/thunder rune and use vallation pflug after each ebullient. Make sure to have only trusts buffs before each ebullient. Also not using Monberaux makes the ga spells less dangerous cause less buffs are absorbed. Put meva/hp+ set every time he cast a ga spell.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-22 13:50:16
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Spookyfish89 said: »
My question was still directed at Flowens comment that fencer being no contest vs dw w/ fernagu

To clarify I said dw builds can be competitive with fencer builds (not no contest with fencer builds), in response to a comment that suggested it is never worth dw over fencer which followed a discussion on some offhand options, which was actually from a conversation on max cloudsplitter damage.. therefore 3k tp, therefore offhand benefits > fencer.

Anyway, when we discuss overall damage (assuming optimal tp use - the later discussions when tp bonus offhand comes into the mix), even then i'm not talking anything very significant here, like a 10% lead in overall tp gain rate without haste samba, less sacrifices made in gear to enable delay cap, which is why I said I often use fencer and they are the easier go to builds. With haste samba from a DNC fencer is better. My points were not to discredit fencer builds but to encourage dw as an option for those that want to optimize a dw set up.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-10-22 15:20:22
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Asura.Sirris said: »
That's what gives me pause about Fencer builds full time. We are largely forced to them in Odyssey but outside of that how often do you get Haste Samba from a main DNC or even /DNC?

Something that always bugs me a little bit about any discussion where Haste Samba is relevant is that when you're really getting down into the "optimal" setups, people tend to focus only on the WAR's personal DPS.

1) Doesn't account for the fact that you might have better overall party DPS with a DNC going a different job altogether. WAR Fencer w/ Samba might win versus WAR DW in a given situation, but does WAR+DNC total DPS beat... say, WAR+SAM or WAR+DRG or WAR+WAR (and twice the WARCRY)? Nothing against DNC, maybe you have a party member who just loves DNC and wants to be on that job - OK, cool, that's totally fine and Samba playing nice with WAR Fencer builds is a bonus. But if you're bringing a DNC just to optimize the WAR's damage, you're running some risk of just being that "princess DD" wanting to build the entire party around themselves and not focusing on the big picture, IMO. But maybe your goal isn't max segments, it's just to have the biggest number next to your own name on the parse. In that case, carry on :P

2) People also tend to base DPS discussion on the very inaccurate assumption that Samba is always up. And it's not, it requires the DNC to actually hit the same mob and apply Daze effect before the WAR gets any benefit from it. On an NM that lives for a while, the DNC being able to maintain Samba is a reasonable assumption. In something like Odyssey farming, MANY times the WAR will engage a mob before the DNC does, maybe even killing the mob without getting any Samba benefit at all. Or maybe you're thinking of having the DNC split off and focus on a family of piercing weak mobs; that could mean no sambas for your WAR who may be fighting something else, or no Fencer build to benefit from Sambas because you did stay with the DNC and switched to polearm (and if you're /DRG, that's already a bit of a hit versus /SAM Hasso for 2h).
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-10-22 20:25:12
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What's considered a good Ody run? We get about 1 - 1.12 mil gils touching the exit.
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