The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Just the store tp from aeonic works off hand iir, not "something".
Everything else looks OK

I think it was Senjuinrikio era where we started to realize that not all weapons applied evenly? I might need to be corrected there.

But since then, it's been a hodgepodge of choices by the design team.

It would be nice if we could get some better bonuses to apply in offhand. But don't hold your breath, SE's already stated that it would be overdoing it for jobs that can DW.

relic- nothing transfers beyond skill+
mythic- nothing transfers beyond skill+
emp- +stats transfer
aeonic- +stp transfers
ambu- everything not main hand related transfers

im unsure if things like mdmg apply off-hand as that came later on, would assume it does since magic accuracy skill/weapon skill+ do but SE loves to be random with its stats, but enmity, acc/atk, im presuming macc aswell does not in the case of relic/mythic

Macc accuracy skill, which is different from macc, doesn't work oh for ANY weapon, not just REMA.
MDMG might work? I honestly don't know about mdmg.
I mean I know MDMG works off hand normally, I'm talking about MDMG on REMAs.

ah, good to know

We definitely know what applies from Relics (nothing), Empys (attribute stats), and Aeonics (STP) when offhanded. Mythics are a little weird though. "Augments [JA]" stats definitely do not apply when the weapon is offhanded, but Nagi's special JA-augmenting stat is the Mijin Gakure RR/damage effect. Enmity+40 seems more like a normal stat that might work? Probably the same as Burtgang's Enmity+23, if any PLDs have tested THAT effect. I'm still not entirely convinced whether it works or not, since any testimonials I've seen have not included a good explanation of testing methodology.

I'm also not 100% sure whether "Magic Accuracy" on 1h Mythics (Nagi, Tizona, Carnwenhan, Murgleis, Yagrush, etc.) applies if offhanded. Though "Magic Accuracy Skill" does not apply from offhand.

Other "skill" stuff:
I don't think stuff like combat skills ("Parrying skill", etc.) works offhanded, but if anyone has evidence otherwise I'd love to know about it. "[Weapon type] skill" definitely only applies to that hand, and is easily seen from /checkparam acc/atk stats.

Now that I actually have Nagi, if anyone has suggestions for good tests to conclusively show whether Enmity (or Macc) work when offhanded, I'd be happy to test it out. Perhaps Logical can assist ;) I do have a SCH mule that I could use for Libra purposes.

Edit: FWIW, I did just ask the PLD forum how Burtgang works with Enm+ stat, since I trust those guys (like Martel) with Enmity testing related things.

^All of these limitations are 100% in place as a way to nerf ninja and no other jobs.

Also, just from anecdotal evidence, it is freaking noticeable that MH Fudo C r25 is a LOT better for enmity than Nagi. Used them both in the same Dyna run a couple weeks back, and Nagi was a wild adventure while Fudo was relatively stable in being able to keep hate off melee DDs.

I'm digging Nagi for some weird applications like finishing up TP Bonus katana magian trials though! Nagi/Tauret or Nagi/Gokotai is also a lot of fun if you're doing a lot of self-SC and MBs, thanks to insane TP generation and Macc+70 (from Macc+40 base/Macc+30 R15 augment) helping out the nukes to avoid resists.

I actually asked martel about this a ways back and to if he would test +enmity on burt;

Ok, so. A brief test.

Enmity+/-0. No WSD on Atonement

Control sample.
Had my alt pull a mob, then flashed mob on main. Waited 30~ seconds for VE to decay and Atonement'd the mob.

29 dmg. This is consistent with the atonement formula's dmg output for 180 CE. 180/6-1=29

Repeated the test but had Burtgang offhand when flashing.

Still 29 dmg. No change.

So the enmity+ on Burtgang, and very likely on all one-handed mythics, does not work when offhanded.

The enmity on Nagi offhand has already been tested.

Well the enmity is nearly doubled. 40 static vs up to 70(?)

Plus... Fudo has
Higher base damage
Is faster
More attack (may or may not matter with 2 bards 4 cors 4 geos and 2 smns...)
More HP (smaller enmity losses)
Faster recasts
No jank ws
Higher acc and racc

It's really completely unreasonable how much better it is than the mythic ffs.

Nariont’s comments re: Martel’s Burt testing seem pretty convinving to me, and highly likely same deal with Nagi. I’d have to look back at Alex’s Nagi tests to see the methods used for his investigation, but the quoted piece doesn’t really give much explantion of how he arrived at the result (though I do recall his Yonin testing was solid).


Fudo clearly mops up for enmity purposes only, but Nagi’s potential is more in possible uses of Mythic AM3. We at least have Malignance now as a good Mythic TP option (at least for sone sort of hybrid pseudo-tank DPS role) which was not a thing when most of us formed our LOLNAGI opinions that mostly remained unquestioned through today. Like I said earlier though, I still find Ken+1 better offensively even with Mythic AM.

As for Kamu, honestly it doesn’t suck THAT bad with Nagi augments. It performs very similarly to Shun and Hi, and spikes higher when AM procs on WS. Obviously those things are Nagi-specific though, Kamu is still trash with other weapons. Kamu makes simple light SCs too, Kamu-Shun or vice versa, which you can then MB off for solo applications. That’s really where the weapon shines the most, rapid fire self SC-MB. Which I’ve grown to respect more as a viable use thanks in large part to Logical’s dedication to maximizing NIN nuking opening my eyes a bit.

I also thought Nagi/Hitaki (Magian TP Bonus +1000) spamming Ten could work well for WS spam party situations, maybe even better than Heishi Ten spam thanks to faster TP and more TP Bonus. It SHOULD be better, but I have been a little disappointed in practice from solo testing. TBF, I haven’t yet had the opportunity to try it out with the strong buffs that really make Ten sing.

But whatevs, Kannagi is still my favorite katana ;)

Yes, it was me who did the Nagi enmity testings 2 years ago. Anyone with Nagi and access to 2 characters can replicate it easily.

First, I assumed the following were still true as I had no reason to believe otherwise:

- Volatile Enmity decreases over time at a rate of 60VE/second until reaching zero.
- Performing the first offensive action against a monster gains you 200 CE in addition to the enmity associated with the action.
- Provoke gives 1 CE plus 1800 VE and any Threnody gives 20 CE (and irrelevant VE for testing purposes).

My Nagi owner friend went /WAR and I was BRD/whatever, both with no merits on Enmity and no gear (except Nagi ofc). We didn't cast Yonin, Innin, Utsusemi, etc. We ensured we had no noise in our testings. We went to South Gustaberg but any starter area will do.

First, I (BRD) pulled a level 0 monster with Threnody, that gained me 220 CE and some VE that disappeared in a few seconds. Then NIN used Provoke on it.

Without any Enmity +/-, Provoke generates 1800 VE (plus 1 CE) and the monster will attack NIN but lose hate in about 26-27 seconds ((1801-220)/60). With Enmity +40, Provoke generates 2520 VE and NIN will lose hate in 38-39 seconds instead ((2521-220)/60).

The former happened with no weapon equipped and with Nagi on OH, while the latter happened only with Nagi in MH. Furthermore, the instant I predicted the monster would lose hate on NIN matched in all 3 occasions. I believe it is enough to prove that Nagi's Enmity +40 only works on main hand.

<3333333333333333

I remember this!

Glad you finally joined team #SoggyNagi!

I've been saying Nagi/TP Bonus + Ten is pretty good for awhile now. Nagi doing Chi is pretty dope too. As long as you have the proper buffs/gear and keep AM3 up it's fine. I have been able to push Nagi at or above Heishi/Ten on HELMs/W3/WoC/Kirin/etc.

Good stuff, thanks again!


There's really no reason it shouldn't beat Heishi.

Nagi R15/Hitaki:
DMG:156 Dly:227 TP Bonus+1000 and Mythic AM3 possible to proc on WS. Plus faster TP thanks to OA2-3x.

Heishi R15/???
DMG:166 Dly:227 TP Bonus+500 STP+10 and whatever offhand stats you have. Additional flexibility for better Shun and use of Radiance, but that's not applicable for zerg-ish fights where you're just spamming Ten.

It's pretty hard to come up with other offhand stats that will beat an extra TP Bonus+500 (and ability to WS immediately at 1000tp, versus holding to 1250+ on Heishi), in a situation greatly skewed toward WS damage. If we had something like a STR+70 Empy, that would change things - but we don't.

Heishi would do better if you required additional Acc from offhand to maintain good hit rate. Otherwise, Mythic has a lot going for it in that kind of situation.

Ultimately, the thing is that I don't really feel that sort of zergy/WS-spam heavy situation is one that favors NIN in the first place. In such a scenario, I'd rather be on my Masa SAM, TBH. So for my NIN use, I get more mileage out of Kannagi's far superior white damage (& competitive Blade: Hi), or from lowman/low TP feed fights (where I've been kinda liking Fudo B path), or situations with few DDs where I can actually toss in MBs, or for situations where I really want the defensive benefits of Utsusemi/Migawari.

Thanks much for doing that testing. I sadly had not seen this. Sounds like your methodology was spot on and the result speaks for itself. Looks like it indeed doesn't give the Enmity boost in the offhand. I'll update the pinned comment on the video to make sure this isn't missed. Thank you!

Why not use TP bonus OH for Heishi? That would easily beat Nagi in that scenario. AM3 proc on high TP :Ten doesnt really matter. You have over 20 fTP on main hit, so +1-2 more is ok (probably less than 3% increase in WS damage on avg), but nothing great. You also lose 10 damage on weapon vs Heishi and that is 3% WS damage too, so that alone would even out AM3 proc on Nagi.

Also Fudo Masa path B would probably also beat Nagi. Assuming high MA TP set, Path B would add as much or more swings than AM3, but requires no 3000TP Kamu. It also has more acc to support Hitaki OH and 161 base damage (so not enough to even out AM# proc on :Ten, but the difference in avg WS damage would be super marginal, like 1% maybe). Fudo also has 15 attack per shadow, +150HP which would be very useful for something like Dynamis when your att wont be always capped and you are more safe too with more HP. Fudo also has very important +50 ranged accuracy to support Dakken TP generation. Nagi/Hitaki has no racc, which could for sure be a problem on some high ilvl content. Lastly Fudo has slightly better delay 222 instead of 227.

The only thing that Nagi could be the best for would be :chi spam, because AM3 proc is much more potent on that WS. Still Im not sure about it, because TP bonus is also very potent for :Chi and it probably requires magic accuracy skill on both hands to land on something serious, so Nagi/Hitaki could be a fail (I dont really know, never tried or seen anyone trying that combo for :Chi). Now if you cant use Hitaki, then Heishi offhanding Tauret or Malevolence would probably still beat Nagi offhanding the same, but I'm only guessing tbh. The same problem with racc could apply to NAgi/dagger too and you would need to use Gokotai OH instead and that's worse OH for :Chi in that case.

Interesting point on the magic accuracy skill for chi. I was doing nice dmg on W2 normal mobs but then the dmg dropped hard on NM's (heishi/uzura+2). Maybe I'll need to try Heishi/gokotai there???

Actually when I think about it, idk if magic accuracy skill actually work from offhand. Im getting confused what works and what doesnt work in OH a this point tbh. This is so unclear in this game. That being said magic accuracy +40 on Gokotai works for sure, so just that could help. I would probably go with Tauret tho instead of Gokotai.

Magic accuracy skill works only in mh, for all weapons not just REMA.
Macc works in both hands, generally.

Knowing Nagi enmity does not work offhand is terrible ; ; at least it gave me reason to make one due to enmity and chi... now with this not sure anymore

Nagi/Hitaki and Heishi/Hitaki are much closer than people think. Throughout my testing I had both neck and neck on multiple occasions. It becomes very fight dependent when looking at parse results. Whenever using /Hitaki I generally am using stewpots to help with acc/macc/racc so I never noticed any issues.


Not making a Nagi means having subpar lockstyles, which is fine for some. /shrug

What WSs are Lugra Earring +1 r15 good for besides shun? Could use others input please.

If you are getting the unity and nighttime bonus, this easily replaces Ishvara for Ten, Metsu, Kamu and should be locked into your second earring. Probably Ku also. Even without the bonuses, it beats 2% WSD, especially with double modifier WS. The front page shows it listed for the correct WS

Assuming were talking with latent should be best for all your multi-hits too id think given all katana ws have a str/dex/int combo of some kind, as well as evis or savage

This is a really good point, and one I hadn't thought of a ton. Besides what Simon mentioned, the huge Acc on the weapon (which applies to both hands) really helps your offhand Hitaki TP generation. I'd think FudoB/Hitaki probably beats Heishi/Hitaki in most practical Ten-spam applications due to the faster TP generation.

Finishing a Fudo B is my current project (rank 20/25 now), and I'm excited to play with it more. I started it more for the purpose of low TP feed lowman situations thanks to being able to do good damage along with capped SB+75, but the Ten-spam potential is is a good additional consideration.


Yeah, I think Nagi's TP generation is stronger than people may be giving it credit for (and may not show itself as well on a spreadsheet that assumes a level of precision with WS timing that never seems to match real life use cases). Heishi has slightly stronger Ten's, but Nagi gets a greater quantity of WS.

Another thing is that Heishi/Hitaki has a bit more risk of wasting TP. WS at 1000tp = effectively 2500tp, or 2750 if you're using a Moonshade earring, so it's a lot easier to accidentally over-TP or get a multiattack proc. I'm sure that must help to explain some of the impact on real life parse results.

And the "wasted" WS of Kamu is seriously overblown. Kamu is awful for non-Nagi weapons, but it's really not that bad for Nagi when you factor in Mythic bonus + augments (and fairly frequent AM procs on WS, which I've never thought was OMGamazing for Ten, but it's something). Uses the same WS set as Ten too, so nothing special you need to get.

It's true that if you need to maintain Mythic AM through a longer fight, that makes Nagi trickier to work with. But for a true zerg-style fight where you can start with 3000tp, using Kamu as an opening WS has a pretty minimal impact.

All that being said... yeah, I still don't think any strategy involving NIN relying on spamming Blade: Ten is really the job's best use.

Nagi at least has some really nifty flexibility in being a self-SC machine and being a better mainhand than any other RMEA for the substantial nukes you can tack onto those frequent self-SCs. That's a useful niche that a lot of NIN's don't really exploit to its fullest. And there's also the strong Chi potential mentioned above.



This is the real answer. I'm also a little embarrassed to admit how giddy I get when I'm able to Mijin Gakure and get that free RR.

R15 Lugra+1 (dusk-dawn) even beats Ishvara for Blade: Hi in the majority of situations, despite no AGI. Even during the day, it's really close with Ishvara (if not still sometimes better in that scenario too).

So I am trying to make myself a spreadsheet for Ninjitsu Magic Damage and had some questions.

Futae Effect Job Points (5*20 = 100) is this part of the Magic Damage (mDMG) term? Or is this some other term?

Same question with Elemental Ninjutsu Effect?

So Empy hands give a bonus to Futae, didn't seem wearing them only for Job activation did anything. I had to wear them during the casting.

Also it seems that Ambu weapon > Ochu for free nuking and bursting?

Going to be difficult to make a spreadsheet for it without stats like Magic Evasion of the mob your fighting, are you including that?

Both Futae and Elemental Ninjutsu Effect as far as I know are just adding Magic Damage.

Futae hands definitely have to be equipped midcast as the spell goes off.

Ambu Weapons are definitely better then ochu, not even close. Fudo Masamune another good option.

Recommend you watch this as it explains pretty much all you need to know.