The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-21 15:56:57
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The reason I say "chance" is because the RUN/PLD empyrean set bonus gave a "chance" that they could absorb damage.
Yes, but that's a nice additional and not necessary bonus.
Icing on the cake?
I thought here we were talking about big, basic, built-in stuff within the job to allow for an even better tanking, making it feasible to tank almost everything a PLD and RUN can tank and not just the niche of stuff NIN can already tank.

If that's what we're talking of then "chance" is imo a bad game design approach to make tanking more viable for NIN.
Whatever it is we want to give NIN it has to be something reliable, not a "chance".
My two humble cents of course!
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-21 16:11:43
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Tanking is already viable for NIN. The loss of shadows regularly is the annoying part. I just think any path you take towards giving NIN the ability to have un-wipable shadows consistently pretty much makes them pretty broken, no? Hard to walk on that thin line.

Not arguing theory, just trying to be reasonable. Having a 100% chance to not have your shadows wiped on an aoe spell is quite different than say, a 30% chance of ignoring the effects of a wiped shadow from AOE. If going by the Yonin logic, that may even be something they add as a dimishing bonus in the realm of "chance" (enemy crit hit rate down, issekigan parry bonus are both "chances").

It might not even be possible to begin with. SE may have coded Player Utsusemi in that any magical area of effect simply removes shadows and there's no way around it. There are monsters that don't have this restriction. One possible change they could make is by adjusting Utsusemi behavior based on Ninjutsu skill. There's a good bit of items that increase Ninjutsu skill. They could replicate like how BLU spells have an effect from Blue Magic Skill, causing Occultation to give more shadows. Perhaps apply that same logic to Ninjutsu Magic to enhance it in other ways, which would give players a reason to use a set for casting.
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By Taint 2018-12-21 16:43:37
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Yonin - each shadow gives 3 mdt II.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-21 16:46:06
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How would that benefit ninja if single target nukes get absorbed and aoe just strip away the shadows?
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By Boshi 2018-12-21 17:01:10
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Because it lets nin break 50dt cap on its biggest weakness: aow magic
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-21 17:37:40
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I like the idea, but wouldn't it be useless? For a magic to hit you it needs to strip your shadows, or you need to be without shadows.
Hence the benefit of xMDB for each shadow would become moot.

Or did I miss something?
Granted that I like the idea of giving NIN a small edge over its major weakness: magic damage.
And it would be MDB instead of Meva, meaning it would only apply to magic damage and not magic debuffs.
It's a cool idea but binding it to shadows the way you said makes it seem kinda worthless becaus of what I explained above :x
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-21 17:42:15
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If they implement it in a way where the area of effect is able to determine how many shadows it is wiping, then it could work. Knowing SE, they didn't make it like physical where a five hit ws absorbs five shadows exactly, so you can assume the remaining damage if you partially negate the multi hit. Magical just wipes shadows entirely without counting, so doesn't seem like it would work. That's why I asked what purpose that would serve. Single target spells get absorbed from shadows so there's no use there either
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By Taint 2018-12-21 18:59:21
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As an example My thought was you have 3 shadows up and an AoE hit you the damage would strip the 3 shadows but the damage would be mitigated by the additional 9%.

As stated above magic AoE is NINs weakness it would give them a strategic advantage.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-21 19:59:15
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You'd think it would be that easy except it would require the AOE to check your active shadow count before/while executing the AOE.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-22 18:29:32
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While thinking about a powerful buff to give an additional layer of defense to NIN against magic when tanking I was struggling to think about a factor to discriminate between Tank and DD.

Clearly this defensive buff should be something that would benefit NIN as a tank, but not NIN as a DD or it could be exploited and that would be reason enough for SE to NOT give us such a buff.

I think I found a possible variable to discriminate between tank and DD.
What if this buff is only active if NIN is on top of the hate list of the target that's using the action?
Say a NM uses a powerful magic-based AoE. NIN would benefit from this additional bonus only if Yonin is up and you're on top of the enmity list.


What do you guys say, could this work? I think it would greatly reduce the possibility of abusing of this while NOT tanking.
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By Taint 2018-12-22 19:41:37
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Having to use Yonin is a great start.

It’s like Lionheart RUN using their tank jAs to avoid pretty much everything while DPSing.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-12-22 22:08:31
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Tanking is already viable for NIN. The loss of shadows regularly is the annoying part. I just think any path you take towards giving NIN the ability to have un-wipable shadows consistently pretty much makes them pretty broken, no? Hard to walk on that thin line.

Not arguing theory, just trying to be reasonable.

I agree with this take. Realistically, I just can't see SE being willing to take the risk of significantly modifying Utsusemi just due to the high potential for making it broken. Would be hard to figure out how to do it right.

However, perhaps there's another way... One stroke of semi-genius in the days where they made conscious decisions to start designing content to cripple blink tanking was to add Migawari as a bit of an extra security blanket that can still save your *** on the next big hit after losing shadows (or from a big AoE). Now, that doesn't always work as a reliable tanking tool due to several reasons: HP thresholds affecting how often Migawari kicks in, Miga not working on everything, and just the fact that it only protects from a single hit.

But perhaps instead of modifying Utsusemi, tweaks to Migawari could improve NIN tanking with lower risk of inadvertently breaking the game.

Maybe modify Migawari to buff it when Yonin is up. Something like a large DT- effect on the next hit (whether shadows were lost entirely, or on the AoE that takes your shadows out). IDK whether it could be too powerful, but maybe even add the ability to mitigate damage for multiple hits (to help against stuff like the frequently encountered mobs with a lot of multi-attack). Perhaps you add more hits based on Ninjutsu skill (say, next 3 hits at highest tier), or a :Ni version of the spell, etc.

A few hypothetical examples:
(1) With Yonin up, Migawari: Ichi adds DT II-25% (i.e., exceeds 50% cap if you pair it with gear) and Migawari effect is consumed upon taking (a) 2 hits of any kind - physical, magical, AoE, single target, etc., OR (b) one "severely damaging" attack (just like it currently does). Migawari:Ni adds DT II-30% effect and the Migawari effect is consumed upon taking 3 hits or one "severely damaging" attack.

(2) With Yonin up, Migawari: Ichi adds DT II -20%/25%/30%/35% based on Ninjutsu skill tier. Lasts until NIN takes 2 hits.

(3) With Yonin up, Migawari: Ichi adds DT II -25%. Lasts for 1-3 hits, dependent upon Ninjutsu skill tier.

That gives you a realistic additional defensive reason to use Yonin, and helps a tanking NIN survive via reduced damage on those next couple hits after shadows get wiped by AoE. But it doesn't make Utsusemi any stronger, and doesn't impact offensive-focused NIN (or /NIN as subjob). Maybe, as Sechs mentioned earlier, if this is seen as a big enough defensive buff, give Yonin some additional offensive downside - or even better, give Innin a more significant offensive buff (WSD+, Crit Dmg+, etc.) that you have to forego in order to get Yonin-enhanced Migawari.

As for comparison to other tanks, RUN and PLD can both walk around with significant amounts of PDT II -x% with high end weapons, and insane magic mitigation (via Aegis, or runes/JAs). PUP gets a stupid amount of native automaton DT-. I find it fair to give NIN a more limited DTII- effect, but on the flip side I also find it fair to have that effect wiped out after a fairly small number of hits since NIN has the substantial tool of Utsusemi to fall back on. It would make Yonin NIN a lot sturdier when shadows DO get wiped though, and it wouldn't require a total shift in game design philosophy (that probably isn't ever going back to slow easily blinkable fights ever again, outside of rare situations) for future stuff and even today's content that isn't so NIN-friendly right now.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2018-12-23 03:01:38
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Can Kanaria really get TA+4 with a fern stone? BG-Wiki has a question mark next to it. I've seen +3 but not +4 in a few hundred stones.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-23 05:21:30
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Migawari bonuses are kinda nice. It's a cool idea Capu, I like it.
But having to keep Migawari up 100% of the time on every bloody fight would be incredibly boring. More annoying than boring.
Would you enjoy tanking like that on every fight? Not sure I would honestly D:


The idea of giving NIN a big defensive bonus against magic for a few seconds when shadows are down, yonin is up and you're on top of the target's enmity list is a neat idea. Would improve NIN's capability of tanking tons, would make a NOTICEABLE difference between NIN and any other DD capable of tanking and would also be an unique/cool feature. A different, entertaining way to tank stuff.
At the same time it wouldn't be abuseable by NIN if used as a DD, so SE doens't have to worry about that.

I think such changes, and maybe a bit more of specific tanking-focused gear, would allow NIN to reliably tank sooooo many more things that it can tank today.
I'd say virtually everything except stuff with multiple adds.
Altough honestly some of the stuff with adds could probably be tanked just fine, really, just by idling with a good capped DT TP set.
 
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-12-23 21:24:13
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Yeah, I've tossed a ton of Fern stones at Kanaria and never seen above TA+3, pretty sure TA+3 is max non-DM value.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-26 09:14:44
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To Alexcennah and anybody else who was testing enmity related stuff for Utsusemi a few days ago.
Do you mind testing enmity in the situation of the Utsusemi spell completing its cast but not taking effect?

For instance the scenarios of:
Utsusemi: Ichi being cast with Ni or San being up.
Utsusemi: Ni being cast with San being up.

In those scenarios the spell will finish casting, but it won't take effect.
Would you get the base enmity generated by the spell?
Would you get the additional Yonin-bonus?
Would you get both? Neither?
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By Kaleen75014 2018-12-26 09:36:52
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Hello everyone, returning player here thinking about gearing up ninja, and I am struggling with the Katanas. From what I understand Aeonic katana would be the best bet for main hand, but what about off hand ? Is it worth it to make a Kikoku for Off Hand ? Are REMAs completely worthless if offhanded ? Thank you
 
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By Kaleen75014 2018-12-26 11:00:08
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Thank you for your input !
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By mhomho 2018-12-26 11:49:40
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mainhand kikoku, offhand heishi for the 10stp and high base damage? :x
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-26 12:00:11
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If damage is what you care about kanaria is a good katana offhand. Has stp acc att ratt and can get triple. It's the perfect offhand
 
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 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2018-12-28 04:30:16
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@Sechs
I haven't been able to play lately because holidays. But I'll test what you're asking (and everything else Yonin related) as soon as possible.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-12-28 07:30:21
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I actually saw a guy today with eletta katana tancho+1 and 5/5 +1 ambuscade gear!

One guy actually did the "proper" progress to starting new/restarting!
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-12-28 08:44:28
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intrloper said: »
mhomho said: »
mainhand kikoku, offhand heishi for the 10stp and high base damage? :x

Just started messing with NIN again as well and trying to figure it all out again. Also wondering how AG-Kikoku/Heishi will do. Always loved my Kikoku, was first relic I ever made.

Depending on what you have access to if you're just coming back the wildskeeper katana w/ occ att twice can be nice.

You also may be able to solo the mijin katana NM, or if you've received a red mog pell I think Izuna is the name, but its not too bad
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-28 12:41:54
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That katana is not intended as a starter katana
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-12-28 12:50:12
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Except that it literally is

"supposed to be"

even adjusting V2 to make them easier to get
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-12-28 13:28:33
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It was just intended as an easier way to get magical based weapons, as per nyarlko's translation. No mention of it being fit newer players. That was just what the players thought it was. It just happens to follow the progression of updating through ambuscade tiers. They are just high magical stat weapons
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By Afania 2018-12-28 13:45:39
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It was just intended as an easier way to get magical based weapons, as per nyarlko's translation. No mention of it being fit newer players. That was just what the players thought it was. It just happens to follow the progression of updating through ambuscade tiers. They are just high magical stat weapons


They are actually pretty good starter weapon anyways. Reisen weapon needs rov access, su weapons need cp. Zitah ruann weapons are worse than ambuscade ones. Oboro weapons cost quite a bit and they have lower base dmg.

The base damage of ambuscade weapon is pretty high, without needing to do missions nor cp. And 1 vd run with seals can finisn a weapon. Personally if I start a new alt or something, Id just leech an ambuscade VD run and finish +2 ambuscade weapon for dd job in 5 min. Its MUCH faster than hours of boring cp to unlock su weapon, or boring rov for days for a weapon that needs tons of random augments.

If you just pay, cp and reisen weapon also cost more than a VD carry if I remember correctly. VD carry is like 5m if you pay, or free if you beg friends/carry on main.

Asura.Eiryl said: »
I actually saw a guy today with eletta katana tancho+1 and 5/5 +1 ambuscade gear!

One guy actually did the "proper" progress to starting new/restarting!

Thats what Id do for progression. No point to get skirmish zitah ruann stuff when they take much longer. Im too lazy to cp for ah weapons.
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