Best Dagger For Thief

(For example, Mandau + Twashtar 99 in the parse above would have significantly higher critical hit rate (+13ish on average including MS aftermath?) and benefit much less from adding 3 more critical hit rate - it would also gain less from a critical hit because of a higher ratio).

Mercy Stroke AM is +5% crit rate. Are you getting that extra crit+ from the DEX on Twatstar?

Why did I visualize a star tattoo on someone's vag?

You didn't specify weapon, so making a bit of a guess here.

Crit average of 140.8. 14% crit damage bonus means that nominal crit avg would be 123.5.

Difference between nominal crit and melee avg was 123.5 - 55.1 = 68.4

fStr of 13 (Braver's +15, Minuet's +10, Boost-str +23 (being a bit conservative) gives +48 str on top of normal gear; probably close to capped fStr) means base weapon damage would be 55.

Assuming you're not using Mandau, as your profile doesn't show it, so maybe Aluh mainhand, which is d51. A bit off, but easily within margin of error, given the sample sizes (11% margin of error on crit damage, 7% margin of error on melee damage).

So, we're given a proper crit-noncrit difference, which means we can guesstimate the average pDifs of each: 0.86 melee and 1.93 crit. If we average them to try to reduce the probable errors, it's something like 0.9 melee and 1.9 crit. (Note: this isn't a perfect estimation, since I'm not digging into the effects of pDif calculations.) Assuming all those buffs put yout at capped attack, that'd be a level 121 mob -- 22 levels of level correction.

So a more abstract estimate of the value of crits would be (1.9 / 0.9) * 1.14 = 2.4x a normal melee hit. Note that this is only valid when you have very low attack relative to the target's defense, or very high level correction. At the low end, for a target without any level correction, but capped attack, the value of a crit would be 1.71x a melee hit.

You also have to determine whether SATA damage is being included. From your parse, it's not. If it is, then SATA damage shifts things further away from standard melee benefits. Of course you also have heavy regain, which somewhat balances that out. Will treat it as a wash.

So, given a range of crit rates, an additional 1% crit rate would increase total melee damage by:

10% (low end) -- 0.66% - 1.2%
25% (capped natural) -- 0.60% - 1.0%
60% (some gear + Champion's) -- 0.50% - 0.76%

So at the low end (no level correction) the gain drops slowly, while at the high end (high level correction) the gain drops more quickly as you add additional crit rate.

As each of those applies only to the melee portion of damage, and if we take a simple 50/50 split (either with high TP gain or influenced by SATA), 3% crit rate should gain between 0.75% and 1.8% total damage. Something around 1.2% is likely for most 'typical' conditions.


Comparitively, Atheling's 3% DA increases hits per round (assuming fairly minimal sets of 9% TA [AF3+2 head, Epona, AF2+2 feet] and 8% DA [Brutal, Epona]) by 1.77%, and overall DPS by perhaps 1.25%.

So if you're fighting something with very high level correction, sure, focusing on crit rate will probably do better, however in most cases it's close to a wash (outside of whatever other stats are available).



And yes, I need to look into what's causing that erronous min melee damage of 0.

Ok so just playing for hours with daggers and damage out put for thf: all the numbers are saying that the only thing that beats Aluh(yes the AH dagger) + Corsicanti off hand is not just any old empy/relic/fire thok. You would have to either have 95+ Twash, or 95+ Mand (The lv 90 is sliver better) with Canti off hand to beat Aluh/Canti. And the only thing that beat using Canti off hand is basically having both 99 Twash/Mand. Using Mandu main hand with full Str and attack MS set.

I did the calc all the way from fodder -> Qilin. and results near sum'd up the same.

So just for an easy answer, if you are not a career thf, need a stand in till you finish you goals or your not into taking the time and effort needed to make either/both a 99 relic and empy for Thf; seems Aluh/Canti are your best options. Canti/Thok(Fire) is also so marginally close another great option.

The reason i post this is because I do not think every person looking into this thread is looking for 99 Empy/Relic or GTFO NOOB! Not saying it has been said just easy impression to take in when pursuing the equip discussion forums each day.

Yes. 20 DEX can give you up to 11% crit rate. Even if we take the minimum crit rate from Twashtar 99 (+2%) and only have MS aftermath active half the time (+2%), using your high estimate of +150%:

((100 + 150(0.34)) - (100 + 150(0.37)))/(100 + 150(0.34)) = 2.98%


(60(102.98)+40(100)-60(100)+40(100))/(60(100)+40(100)) --> 1.78% increase total.

Anyway, now you can see why I highlighted "4.5% increase" with a resounding "No."

1.) It was wrong in the first place
2.) It's a little absurd to post recommendations / calculations for inferior dagger combinations in "Best Dagger for THF."

Aluh / Coruscanti is a very good combination, especially if you only play THF on the side (although Coruscanti is hard to get, so that role is sort of marginalized there). I don't think anyone would deny that. Coruscanti is interesting, in rare cases it can buy you 16% critical hit rate. It's definitely designed to be a "I can get my dDEX high, but not my cRatio" weapon.

Otomis, how much ODD rate did you stick in for Mandau and Twash for your calculations? Mandau has effectively something like 13% ODD after all gear considerations and Twashtar probably can put something like 15% (Unless you're dumb and use Rudra's during SATA cooldown).

I'm pretty sure Kurriko is using Aluh mainhand (you mention this) but you forget to increase the CAB to 1.17 (+3% from Aluh), so 1.9/0.9 * 1.17 = 2.47 which is pretty close to the 2.5 estimate Kurriko was using (albeit incorrectly).

Bah. I'd actually noted that, but for some reason forgot to use it in the calculations. It also makes the results a bit cleaner.

140.8 / 1.17 = 120.3

Factor out pDif spread:
120.3 / 1.025 = 117.4
55.1 / 1.025 = 53.8

Diff: 117.4 - 53.8 = 63.6
Aluh with capped fStr: 64
So pretty much a match.

Average pDif:
53.8 / 64 = 0.84 melee
117.4 / 64 = 1.83 crit

Implies ~0.85 cRatio, 1.85 crit cRatio, and a level 122 mob (23 levels of level correction).

Value of a crit relative to a melee hit: (1.85 / 0.85) * 1.17 = 2.55x

Value of +1% crit rate at:

10%: 1.3%
25%: 1.1%
60%: 0.8%

And 3% crit rate when starting from a ~25% crit rate would be +3.35%, or 1.7% after accounting for the melee/ws split. Sufficient to be considered better than the ~1.25% gain from 3% DA.

So versus extremely high level mobs (Legion, Provenence, etc) where you're likely to be attack capped [1], and also maybe extra crit damage bonuses, crit rate is, point for point, better than DA.

[1] Otherwise you also have to factor in the attack difference in gear, which I'm not bothering with here. However 3 attack is probably not enough to bridge the gap.

Remember however that in those situations you may or may not be acc cappded (due to buffs. Are you getting madrigals? etc). For example on Ig-alima with only aggressor, stalwarts and bravers and +49 acc in gear I was only around 75~ hit rate at which point Letalis/Rancor would be better.

I'm going to throw some more combinations into the spreadsheet for DC content because I'm sure I was getting Nef/Ranc coming up tops there too, which is why I made the claim in the first place

1) The maths, yes. The result, no.
2) I never mentioned dagger combinations in my initial claim. When I put gear into the spreadsheet I do both Mandau/Twash and Aluh/Thokcha, however when discussing the results I always use the Mandau/Twash result. So in actuality my innitial claim was regarding s Mandau/Twash Thf.

It took the +3% critical hit damage from Aluh Jambiyah to actually pull in favor of critical hit rate, Twash/Mandau get no such bonus.

They're starting with 30%, according to their parse.

Why are you focusing on one parse that I posted (which I already acknowledged doesn't favour Nef/Ranc above) when discussing the general claim (That being: Nefarious/Rancorous is better in non-embrava capped-acc situations)?

I never focused my argument around one event - PW with high regain. In fact I revised my claim to state that that is one situation where Ranc/Atheling IS better. I posted a parse to give some vague background to my numbers so people wouldn't think I just pulled them out of thin air to benefit my argument.

I don't see why you're still using that data to prove Ranc/Atheling is better. We all already agree that in that high-regain, capped-acc, 50/50 split situation that it is.

Maybe I'm mis-reading it (and if so, apologies) but you seem to care more about proving me wrong and less about finding the correct answer. At the end of the day it's irrelevant who was right or wrong as long as we all arrive at the correct answer. We can all put the gear into the spreadsheets ourselves to discover it, and in fact that's what I've openly been encouraging people to do. Why do you suppose I made the claim in the first place? Because someone dropped the idea into conversation months ago on BG RQT, I went and put the gear into the spreadsheet myself and found the times where it was better.
If someone presents you with something you may have overlooked then plug it into the spreadsheet yourself and check. Instantly dismissing it benefits absolutely no one. Actually going and checking will always benefit someone, whether it's you or someone else.

I actually just uncovered a really random problem in my spreadsheet I had overlooked, where Nefarious wasn't giving Critical hit rate +3% (I must have edited the wrong item at some point when I was changing the gear list)

Versus Dynamis DC, I get Nefarious/Rancorous coming ahead by 0.04%. This is using the current standard set though, I don't know how Skadi+1 might change things up (which is the same thing you mentioned).

I assumed that the 30% included the Nefarious Collar, so more like 27%. Plus it also includes Rancorous, so more down at 22% (or maybe 18%, minus AF3 legs) before gear. Regardless, anything within a few percent of that should be basically the same.

Should also caveat the Legion portion of the conclusion to be only those mobs that don't have massive -crit rate, since that would nullify the benefit.

And obviously make further adjustments if acc comes into play. For the Ig-alima example mentioned, I'd figure that switching to Pizza would be the greatest benefit if your hit rate is that low, but once you do that then you probably have a surplus of acc in gear (unless Aggressor is down), and you have to do more tweaking, etc.

Yeah I'm getting Nefarious/Rancorous coming out at .7% ahead of Rancor/Atheling but it's probably a discrepancy with race and that I'm using 90 Twashtar and relic+2 feet instead of Thaumas since I don't need them to cap dDEX. I should probably switch some gear around to factor in the DEX from BRD AF3 set bonus on Marches but I'm not sure there's any swaps worth making at this point.

You're using AF3 head and 4/5 Thaumas in your calculations as the "standard set"? This is honestly very interesting to me, seeing just one or two gear swaps making such a difference.

Been skimming through this thread and the assassin's feet +2 thread and reading about the different gear options for dynamis DC mobs, and was wondering: in Dynamis, with RCB and double march/haste from bard mule, would thokcha or Twashtar 90 be a better offhand until I get the Legion dagger? I use the 4/5 Thaumas set with nef + rancorous.

I apologize if it's already been answered.

Playing my wife's mule a bit while in law school. Don't feel like making it a relic due to how little I'll be playing it. Right now I'm using Aluh + Twilight dagger. Any recommended changes?

Was going to use it for occasional Salvage/Neo-Salvage, Nyzul, and Dynamis Farming. Thinking of making a couple AGI daggers for Exenterator/Dynamis soloing. Thoughts?

I made an AGI dagger for my thief. it was a complete waste of time. I think STR dagger would be far better if you want to make a ToM, otherwise Aluh/twilight would suffice for a AH/little effort combo.

You're not looking at much of an offensive improvement. The evasion has the capacity to do something during Neo-Salvage, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it relevant.

You can wait for Byrth, Sylow, or someone similar to correct me, but I'd tentatively suggest that you don't waste your time on anything that isn't a fire trial.

ZR2 Hydra is currently the only semi-plausible reason in the game to consider an AGI Thokcha, since you can actually evasion-tank that mob. But Byrth was ~75% eva with an evasion/hybrid set on DNC and THF gets more evasion, so it's very likely that with a decent set, even in this case, THF doesn't need an AGI Thokcha. They are definitely a bad choice for DC nightmare mobs.

Aluh/Lux shouldnt be too hard to get. Twilight dagger is just...bleh nowdays

Why bother evasion tanking things that can be blood tanked?

Lux isn't too hard to get (And considering all the other Fake Pulse weapons the Lux is actually really good IMO), but like every other VW drop you might get a huge deviation from the normal drop rate. I think I did like 150 Qilins before I saw a single Lux, heh.

Bad choice for DC nightmare mobs? I thought that's where they'd shine. Figured they would reduce the self cures I'd need Thf/dnc and bump up the exenterator damage a bit.

For pure DD though, Aluh/Str for now?

If you're having a hard time getting Qilin dagger drops, depending on AH availability on your server you could grab an Oxossi Facon off the AH. Another option that's pretty close with the Lux/Thokcha tier. Aluh/Oxossi is a pretty great combo for AH gear, dagger users made out well compared to most jobs in terms of solid AH weapons.

Also nice that you can resell it and get something back if you replace it, which is something you can't do with, say, a Fire Thokcha (which is far from free - about 4.5mil in Geodes by current Phoenix prices, that you can never get back if you end up tossing it in storage some day).

Fire dagger may slightly edge it out, but particularly if you're looking to replace long-term with something like Relic/Empy/???, or just want something to get up to a good level without spending the time to do the fire trials, it's something to consider.

(FWIW, I use Aluh/Lux myself, still going for Coruscanti. My other jobs get more of an increase from Relic/Empy, so I'm prioritizing them over Mandau/Twash).

If you're fine with doing a fire trial, yes.

And as I understand it, EVA should be naturally capped on EP(potentially DC as well?), and the signet bonus against DC is immense. Either way, the benefit is anywhere from insignificant to inapplicable.

The lazy part of me wants to suggest sticking with Aluh/Twilight, because nothing really stands to improve your productivity all that much(and a fire trial is going to run you a fair bit of pocket change).

If your wife's mule is on Phoenix, hit me up '-')

Thanx everyone, and ya the mule is on Phx with the wife. It feels weird playing a sorta gimp character.. But it's all I have time for and I've always enjoyed thf.

No, because THF is very close to the evasion cap without even wearing evasion gear on Nightmare DC. Can parse your evasion if you don't believe me, it should be 75%+. Since you don't have Mandau, you will be using Exenterator more which should cap you.

If you're procing and killing fast, you can actually go for pretty long periods of time without ever even needing to cure.