Kantonotachi Vs. Masamune, The Great Debate!
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Kantonotachi Vs. Masamune, The Great Debate!
tp bonus GK looks like someone vomitted on the handle, i made masa just because i like how it looks compared to amano /sarcasm.
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I thought it was proven that Masa99 is the superior GK, according to Taint on the test server. Was in another thread here not too long ago. And i'll not bother with making an amano cuz it takes months of farming to negate the 150m it costs for the plates (150m to just make the v75 amano, from the prices i'm seeing).
Lastly, masa just looks so awesome... edit: yes, TEST server (balance, changes before release, blah blah blah) Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Shiva.Keyera said: » I thought it was proven that Masa99 is the superior GK, according to Taint on the test server. Was in another thread here not too long ago. And i'll not bother with making an amano cuz it takes months of farming to negate the 150m it costs for the plates (150m to just make the v75 amano, from the prices i'm seeing). Lastly, masa just looks so awesome... edit: yes, TEST server (balance, changes before release, blah blah blah) And you think 99 masa will be less effort/time/annoyance than the trials to 95 amano or koga? 'cus both 95 amano and koga beat kanto - both beat it my a large margin, koga greatly so. Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Poor excuses... well then if anybody is putting any effort into SAM we should all be working on mythic and arguing over masa/amano is pointless?
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Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Poor excuses... well then if anybody is putting any effort into SAM we should all be working on mythic and arguing over masa/amano is pointless? Amano and koga are situationally equal. If someone is intending to put the effort that would be required to 95 or 99 an emp, into sam, then why on earth would they go for an inferior weapon that requires basically the same amount of work? Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Shiva.Keyera said: » I thought it was proven that Masa99 is the superior GK, according to Taint on the test server. Was in another thread here not too long ago. And i'll not bother with making an amano cuz it takes months of farming to negate the 150m it costs for the plates (150m to just make the v75 amano, from the prices i'm seeing). Lastly, masa just looks so awesome... edit: yes, TEST server (balance, changes before release, blah blah blah) And you think 99 masa will be less effort/time/annoyance than the trials to 95 amano or koga? 'cus both 95 amano and koga beat kanto - both beat it my a large margin, koga greatly so. was recorded that 99 beats out amano. no testing with koga, and i dont think there is any testing needed. and i'm speaking from a fairly casual player's perspective, my schedule isnt reliable enough to put in 2hrs of work every day into making amano, not to mention i'm pretty broke :P (money is easy to get, yes i know) and you should really understand that expecting someone to work towards something they dont want to do is futile. does it make you stronger with the job? yes. but i can use the same logic and tell everyone to level all the jobs that way theyre the best...its just something not everyone wants to do. Shiva.Keyera said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Shiva.Keyera said: » I thought it was proven that Masa99 is the superior GK, according to Taint on the test server. Was in another thread here not too long ago. And i'll not bother with making an amano cuz it takes months of farming to negate the 150m it costs for the plates (150m to just make the v75 amano, from the prices i'm seeing). Lastly, masa just looks so awesome... edit: yes, TEST server (balance, changes before release, blah blah blah) And you think 99 masa will be less effort/time/annoyance than the trials to 95 amano or koga? 'cus both 95 amano and koga beat kanto - both beat it my a large margin, koga greatly so. was recorded that 99 beats out amano. no testing with koga, and i dont think there is any testing needed. and i'm speaking from a fairly casual player's perspective, my schedule isnt reliable enough to put in 2hrs of work every day into making amano, not to mention i'm pretty broke :P (money is easy to get, yes i know) and you should really understand that expecting someone to work towards something they dont want to do is futile. does it make you stronger with the job? yes. but i can use the same logic and tell everyone to level all the jobs that way theyre the best...its just something not everyone wants to do. Don't get me wrong, if 90 masa is your limit then it's monumentally easier and quicker than a relic or mythic. My point was simply for 95 and higher - when the trials are comparable to relics at the moment. And seeing as 95 amano was tested as beating 95 masa even before shoha, I really fail to see how 99 masa will put a dent on even 95 amano with shoha, let alone 99 amano. Here you go. time for class!
Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs?
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Shiva.Keyera said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Orrr make the weapon I want to make because I play SAM because I enjoy it and dont care so much about being the best at everything all the time. I REALLY don't get this, how is it more fun playing a job to a certain level when for an equal amount of effort you could play the job better? It just smacks of poor excuses. Shiva.Keyera said: » I thought it was proven that Masa99 is the superior GK, according to Taint on the test server. Was in another thread here not too long ago. And i'll not bother with making an amano cuz it takes months of farming to negate the 150m it costs for the plates (150m to just make the v75 amano, from the prices i'm seeing). Lastly, masa just looks so awesome... edit: yes, TEST server (balance, changes before release, blah blah blah) And you think 99 masa will be less effort/time/annoyance than the trials to 95 amano or koga? 'cus both 95 amano and koga beat kanto - both beat it my a large margin, koga greatly so. was recorded that 99 beats out amano. no testing with koga, and i dont think there is any testing needed. and i'm speaking from a fairly casual player's perspective, my schedule isnt reliable enough to put in 2hrs of work every day into making amano, not to mention i'm pretty broke :P (money is easy to get, yes i know) and you should really understand that expecting someone to work towards something they dont want to do is futile. does it make you stronger with the job? yes. but i can use the same logic and tell everyone to level all the jobs that way theyre the best...its just something not everyone wants to do. Well as you said you're pretty broke so 90 massa isn't going to touch 99 Amano and with what Taint posted i think once were out of vw and people having 300 tp with ease amano99 spamming shoha will be a lot closer to massa99 saveing 300 tp then spamming shoha. Also lets not forget none of the weapons are live yet, speaking of which i hope they go live soon. Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P
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Shiva.Keyera said: » Here you go. time for class! Taint's math in this post was kaiten vs fudo, rather than shoha vs fudo/shoha. As has been shown, shoha is superior to fudo in most situations, bringing the DPS of amano higher. Thats also not to mention that the the 'fudo victorious' comparison was using figures assuming perfect results and capped acc. On anything notably harder, as in T5 and T6, acc is uncapped, or you're using sushi. Either would put amano ahead from the 40 acc. I will accept though, that I was wrong to say amano cleanly beat masa, and I can accpt that they would be situationally equal. This does put a dent in my arguement of koga and amano being comparable though as koga beats masa by a large margin.
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P Aggressor
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P Pretty much. Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Cerberus.Kvazz said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P Aggressor You aren't capping acc on T6 with just aggressor, unless using acc food. Amano sam/war also gets aggressor too, so moot point.
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Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Cerberus.Kvazz said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P Aggressor You aren't capping acc on T6 with just aggressor, unless using acc food. Amano sam/war also gets aggressor too, so moot point. Will also have stalwarts up almost the entire fight which is another notible chunk of acc. Edit: still think I need a smidge more to actually cap on T6's though >.< Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Cerberus.Kvazz said: » Ragnarok.Daffel said: » Siren.Seiri said: » Amano and koga are situationally equal. The situations being? I was under the impression Koga smashed all due to the fact it can proc on WS's. What possible situations would the lolaccuracy and occ 2.5x damage on amano beat occ att 2/3 times that can activate on WSs? Gonna take a wild guess and say when the accuracy really matters :P Aggressor You aren't capping acc on T6 with just aggressor, unless using acc food. Amano sam/war also gets aggressor too, so moot point. Will also have stalwarts up almost the entire fight which is another notible chunk of acc. Edit: still think I need a smidge more to actually cap on T6's though >.< 50~60ish assuming no acc food, 20~30 with aggressor up. Can we talk less about lv 99 weapons. Half of the ppl talking about a lv 99 weapon plan on getting one and less than half of those will actually get one. I can understand the relevence, but its not like everyone has one to compare. When working towards lv 99, ppl are going to choose a weapon they like over a different one that could be better because they will be using the weapon regularly. Use lvls relavent to what ppl will most likely have now and the near future(95 amano, 90 masa, 99 kanto, etc). Im working on kanto but also considering masa. Like most sams, masa wont go past 90. Is kanto a waste or would i be better off working toward masa?
Siren.Seiri said: » I think we can all agree that Koga is better than everything else, more or less. I realize my link was a bit skewed, i had pretty much just woken up lol. But yeah, the point was that Amano doesnt steamroll masa to the extent where i would go vastly out of my way to get one. Cerberus.Cruxus said: » Valefor.Booster said: » Don't bother with Masamune. Get a Kanto and save time wasted on an inferior weapon. tanaka loves sam far to much xD he wont balance that shet and unfortunately as much as i hate to say he is much to prideful and thats from meeting the guy face to face lol afterdarkk said: » i dont think comparing a v90 weapon to a v99 weapon that isnt even out yet is a very fair comparison. (edit: the 1500 plate trial balanced out the overall difficulty obtaining v95s) saving 300tp then spamming shoha may be negated with VW, since you can meditate up to 300 before the event even starts (anybody with a brain knows to do that). This gives you the AM3 and capability of spamming shoha for the entire duration of fanatics (like during many T6 fights), at which point you should already have another dusty wing ready for the next zerg(3 fanas = same duration as 2 AM3s for masa). Amano should close the already small gap the longer a fight drags on, though, and probably surpass masa incase things take a major turn for the worse (zombie battle). Kanto, however, is the way to go for any SAM that doesnt have any REAL plans of taking a myth/relic/emp to 99. as much as i hate to say it.
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Gonna leave Koga out because I've never seen one, but it should be the best if you can keep AM3.
99Masa >= 99Amano > 95 Masa > 90 Masa > 95 Amano > 85 Masa > 90 Amano > TP bonus In regards to T6 VW, I completely agree Stal/Agressor isn't capping you, people completely under estimate their EVA, I've seen plenty of DDs sitting at 55-75% and wonder why their DPS is so low. Sushi should cap you but then you lose out on 150 attack. SAM benefits from a 20/80 TP/WS spread and a 60%+ Zanshin rate. With typical VW buffs Amano would have a big advantage but a smart group would buff according to the mob which would lean back to Masa. (a rare thing in VW unfortunately) Edit: Keeping AM up is not a big deal for Masa users, you are a SAM, TP is not hard to come by. Shoha favors Masa (10-20str). We also don't know what extra buffs Amano/Masa might get at 99 or what the 99 trials are.
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Carbuncle.Pwnzone said: » Can we talk less about lv 99 weapons. Half of the ppl talking about a lv 99 weapon plan on getting one and less than half of those will actually get one. I can understand the relevence, but its not like everyone has one to compare. When working towards lv 99, ppl are going to choose a weapon they like over a different one that could be better because they will be using the weapon regularly. Use lvls relavent to what ppl will most likely have now and the near future(95 amano, 90 masa, 99 kanto, etc). Im working on kanto but also considering masa. Like most sams, masa wont go past 90. Is kanto a waste or would i be better off working toward masa? I think this is a valid mindset to have and something worth considering for people who don't consider Samurai their "main," job, but one they enjoy playing and want to be as good as it can be within this consideration. Personally I would do 90 Masa. It just feels like it's better for overall play and more enjoyable to play with...which, parses aside, I think is a consideration worth making. It gives you access to an additional weapon skill (which, let’s face it: fun!) and an aftermath to use for longer fights and a higher base damage to boot. I don’t know what the spreadsheets or parses say. Maybe 99 Kanto really is the better weapon, at least in some circumstances. But I really do think that Masa would be the more enjoyable of the two. And isn’t that why we play? Hell, do both if you’re of a mindset. Not like the TP Bonus weapons are hard to make in the grand scheme. I’m going to make a 90 Masa just to have it even though I’ve got Amano already and consider taking it to 99 (debating between that and Armageddon) just because it will be potentially better than 99 Amano in some circumstances.
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Ty ram lol :D But idk how much a 99 gun would benefit ya >.< But then again, there is more than just wildfire spam haha.
Fupafighters said: » Ty ram lol :D But idk how much a 99 gun would benefit ya >.< But then again, there is more than just wildfire spam haha. Samurai is my main job and job of choice in most instances, but Corsair is a very close second and because of the makeup of our linkshell I'm on Corsair far more than Samurai. Additionally, base damage does increase Quick Draw damage and Last Stand is a physical weapon skill that is, at times, advisable for use over Wildfire. Given that I will have a 99 Amanomurakumo and we’re working on the wife’s Empyrean of choice to 95+ first, it’s a decision I’ve really not made yet and won’t have to for some time to come.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Fupafighters said: » Ty ram lol :D But idk how much a 99 gun would benefit ya >.< But then again, there is more than just wildfire spam haha. Samurai is my main job and job of choice in most instances, but Corsair is a very close second and because of the makeup of our linkshell I'm on Corsair far more than Samurai. Additionally, base damage does increase Quick Draw damage and Last Stand is a physical weapon skill that is, at times, advisable for use over Wildfire. Given that I will have a 99 Amanomurakumo and we’re working on the wife’s Empyrean of choice to 95+ first, it’s a decision I’ve really not made yet and won’t have to for some time to come. In my humblest of opinions, due to the extreme ease of making a TP bonus GK, you should have one just because... Any serious SAM- which I am not, mind you- should keep their options open. In my personal testing I've found 5/5 Tachi: Shoha to be superior to Tachi: Fudo almost every time... This is based specifically on WS damage, and done as close to 100 TP as possible- aftermath (as my GK is WoE) and higher TP Fudos are not factored here. As with anything, there are going to be situations where one thing outshines the other, but lately I've been using my TP bonus GK and Shoha spamming... It's just fun.
I know Abyssea isn't really the thing anymore, but out of a moment of pure boredom I opted to help someone farm seals yesterday, and using Voracious Violet, Alpha and Omega, and Apocalypse, the amount of pure rape was mind-boggling... But being that it was seal farming, I did quickly lose interest, despite the ~8k+ Shohas I was pumpin' out :P Ragnarok.Azryel said: » In my humblest of opinions, due to the extreme ease of making a TP bonus GK, you should have one just because... Any serious SAM- which I am not, mind you- should keep their options open. In my personal testing I've found 5/5 Tachi: Shoha to be superior to Tachi: Fudo almost every time... This is based specifically on WS damage, and done as close to 100 TP as possible- aftermath (as my GK is WoE) and higher TP Fudos are not factored here. As with anything, there are going to be situations where one thing outshines the other, but lately I've been using my TP bonus GK and Shoha spamming... It's just fun. I know Abyssea isn't really the thing anymore, but out of a moment of pure boredom I opted to help someone farm seals yesterday, and using Voracious Violet, Alpha and Omega, and Apocalypse, the amount of pure rape was mind-boggling... But being that it was seal farming, I did quickly lose interest, despite the ~8k+ Shohas I was pumpin' out :P As I said, no reason to not make both if you're into that, the TP Bonus weapons are pretty easy to make, but remember that we're talking actual Masa here, not the WOE versions. The additional strength and ODD have to be factored into the discussion. And not to mention base damage. WOE stuff is fun to play with, but it's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of the real weapon in most situations. Cerberus.Taint said: » Shoha favors Masa (10-20str) No it doesn't. +20 STR would be about a 5% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio) +100 TP would be about a 29% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio) That's after accounting for DA, which benefits Masamune more due to it's lower http://ftp. You'd need +100 str on masamune for it to be superior to kantanotachi for shoha because of the str. It's base damage is more beneficial to Shoha than the str increase. The gap is closed the higher the TP, but assuming TP spamming, Kantanotachi would be better for Shoha. Masamune would only be better for Shoha given an impossibly high defense mob. And I mean, impossibly high, 1k+. That being said, 90+ Masamune+Fudo is better on anything that you're capping or near capped attack, which is plausible on most of the lower tier voidwatches. And for the really strong stuff where you can't cap attack with Fudo, Masamune AM3+Shoha is still going to out perform Kantanotachi. But no, Kantanotachi > Masamune for Shoha.
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