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[Dev] Corsair Adjustments
By Artemicion 2012-01-03 16:24:53
Several years ago I thought the same problem could be circumvented by investing my merits in Winning Streak thus reducing the frequency of roll cycles, however, especially with the new rolls and even with the #11 updates it became rather clear that making unnecessary cycles hurt damage far too much to make it worth my while. Keeping damage high and rolling consistent 11s became top priority.
Ragnarok.Afania
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2822
By Ragnarok.Afania 2012-01-03 16:25:30
It may sound arbitrary on the surface, but try to remember the opportunity cost involved in applying a secondary set of rolls on a single player. That's a massive amount of damage lost every roll cycle for the sake of something that hasn't been necessary thus far.
I'm not just talking about VW where everything is just proc and WS zerg, but general other uses.
You can just roll it before the fight starts then do the DD rolls, or when you're not doing dmg(double weak, holding off dmg etc). With AF2+2 hat and 3+2 hands it'd stay on for a good while.
Of course you may not "need" it, considering players already beat majority of game content without it in the past, it may not be game changing if you do it in the most optimal way, but may actually change the efficiency a bit if used wisely.
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
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Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 16:27:56
It may sound arbitrary on the surface, but try to remember the opportunity cost involved in applying a secondary set of rolls on a single player. That's a massive amount of damage lost every roll cycle for the sake of something that hasn't been necessary thus far.
I'm not just talking about VW where everything is just proc and WS zerg, but general other uses.
Like what?
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2012-01-03 16:37:14
It may sound arbitrary on the surface, but try to remember the opportunity cost involved in applying a secondary set of rolls on a single player. That's a massive amount of damage lost every roll cycle for the sake of something that hasn't been necessary thus far.
I'm not just talking about VW where everything is just proc and WS zerg, but general other uses.
Like what?
Hmm maybe kiting PW adds? XD Low manning JOL? XDDDD Lowman DM BC fight without having a pimp PLD? XDDDD I know it's not needed though.
Or maybe just holding an NM for w/e reason.
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2012-01-03 16:43:57
Also considering I can't reach cure potency cap on BLU, healers roll may be nice if I'm holding an NM on BLU or something.
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 16:53:51
PW and JoL are extremely easy now. I solo'd two forms of PW(with adds) on PLD while weakened, and JoL's pets explode when you touch them.
Quetzalcoatl.Pyroelf
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By Quetzalcoatl.Pyroelf 2012-01-03 17:02:57
Get over it Minjo.
***is situational- not everyone has 24/7 access to 'pimp tanks' and some smaller shells like low manning their own things, so stuff like this can actually be nice.
Please stop calling things 100% useless when your "Ideal setups" make these pointless, because stuff like this is usually ment to help benefit people that DON'T cap out everything or go in with 90 empys and aegis/ochain plds and crap like that.
Not everyone spends a couple week grinding 90 empys for the main reason that it gets boring real fast.
Phoenix.Sehachan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-03 17:10:14
These rolls have only a place for soloing or circumscribed lowmanning of some kind where they could have a meaning.
The VW tank can have an awesome defense? Who cares, if he could tank before he'll be fine now, the cor has no reason to move from the dds.
Healer's roll is as useless as before, maybe even more.
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-03 17:13:17
There are players that do things just for fun, and not because it's the best thing to do.
Someone will use it and like the update, the rest who just want what they want will have to wait for SE to advance the job forward.
[+]
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 17:15:20
Quetzalcoatl.Pyroelf said: »Get over it Minjo.
***is situational- not everyone has 24/7 access to 'pimp tanks' and some smaller shells like low manning their own things, so stuff like this can actually be nice.
Please stop calling things 100% useless when your "Ideal setups" make these pointless, because stuff like this is usually ment to help benefit people that DON'T cap out everything or go in with 90 empys and aegis/ochain plds and crap like that.
Not everyone spends a couple week grinding 90 empys for the main reason that it gets boring real fast.
Half a thread worth of people calling these rolls useless, and you decide to single me out? Neat.
They are niche beyond reason. Situational is far from an appropriate designation, regardless of whether your parties are acceptably geared or not.
Instead of freaking the hell out, how about you present a situation where they would be useful, and I'll do my best to show why they're still not optimal?
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By Asura.Kaisuko 2012-01-03 17:36:35
Quetzalcoatl.Pyroelf said: »Get over it Minjo.
***is situational- not everyone has 24/7 access to 'pimp tanks' and some smaller shells like low manning their own things, so stuff like this can actually be nice.
Please stop calling things 100% useless when your "Ideal setups" make these pointless, because stuff like this is usually ment to help benefit people that DON'T cap out everything or go in with 90 empys and aegis/ochain plds and crap like that.
Not everyone spends a couple week grinding 90 empys for the main reason that it gets boring real fast.
Half a thread worth of people calling these rolls useless, and you decide to single me out? Neat.
They are niche beyond reason. Situational is far from an appropriate designation, regardless of whether your parties are acceptably geared or not.
Instead of freaking the hell out, how about you present a situation where they would be useful, and I'll do my best to show why they're still not optimal? You sound like the epitome of an "elitist". If stuff isn't perfect to a T you sit there and complain about it and say the party (or w/e) sucks.
If you look around there are these so-called "noobs" who might need a bit of extra help from a COR using the new PLD roll or what have you.
At least SE is trying to update things to our liking. I mean c'mon, what would you rather have, crap *** spikes or -DT? More M.acc, more pet attack, more regen, etc. or the prior? >.>
I'm not disagreeing that in most situations you won't have a use for them, but in some you will, and I'll take that.
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 17:43:11
I couldn't even begin to debate either of you. My cheek is about to rupture from the excess of words you've put in my mouth.
And just as a reminder, eight other people in this thread offered sentiments to the effect of these rolls being useless, and there are upwards of 15 'likes' in regard to their posts. My irrational hatred bandwagon is that much more amusing when it's so easily identified like this.
VIP
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Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-03 17:50:03
What does it even matter.
Someone will enjoy it, who cares if people don't like it.
If you don't like it don't use it, not every update benefits you.
Phoenix.Zekky
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 201
By Phoenix.Zekky 2012-01-03 17:52:58
Hurray! PLD roll that finally rocks!
By volkom 2012-01-03 17:53:50
sweet~ someone can make a situational gearset for when gallants roll is on so the tank can throw on some DD gear
[+]
Ramuh.Krizz
Server: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2012-01-03 17:54:00
Chill.
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
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Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 17:56:55
Hurray! PLD roll that finally rocks! sweet~ someone can make a situational gearset for when gallants roll is on so the tank can throw on some DD gear
Based on the description, it's very likely a phalanx effect, so it's unlikely to change anyone's equipment choices. Regardless, PLD loses very little by capping haste and optimizing accuracy and attack, so wearing DD gear isn't particularly troublesome as is.
As far as its viability, it's nearly impossible to reliably maintain anything's attention against DD while I myself am in full DD gear, so even a substantial decrease in damage taken(which is a minor issue in practice, given the availability of temp. items) wouldn't benefit a tank more than Miser's or Tactiction's Roll.
By volkom 2012-01-03 17:58:42
always a buzz kill =/
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 18:02:18
Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I'm really not bothered in the grand scheme of things. Granted, I'd rather the dev. team spent their time doing more useful things than rolls like this, but COR itself has taken a drastic turn for the better. Miser's/Tactition's Roll really took a job that was superfluous at best and made it extremely potent compliment to BRD.
Overall, I'm still very happy with the job.
Fenrir.Demomo
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Posts: 160
By Fenrir.Demomo 2012-01-03 18:07:46
While I agree that most of these rolls are super situational at best (don't want to say useless because I'm sure someone will think of some form of a "use" for something on this list, eventually), how is "optimal" not having cors in your tank party (in reference to cors not being in the same party as your whms, regardless of the fact that they're not going to be giving your whms rolls 90% of the time) when your tanks are going to need chaos+misers+minuets (or min/march) to keep hate from DD's? With the exception of unbeleivably geared wars and mnks (and now drks with 5/5 merit ws), properly buffed you should still be perfectly capable of keeping a mobs attention a high percentage of the time. If you're zerging something (most of the new VW tiers), you won't even have a pld there "optimally".
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-01-03 18:09:40
something about hate caps
Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 18:12:03
I'd greatly prefer to always have multiple COR, but between raw availability and minding proc needs, that's not always realistic. Given the choice between a COR in the DD/proc party and a COR in the tank party, I'd never take one for myself. CDC caps me quickly enough that the fights turn into a game of who-smacked-last before rolls on a tank would become mandatory.
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-03 18:35:54
I'm available. Raw.
*flags up*
(pirate flag)
Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 18:40:08
Come to Fenrir then. Niniann would probably take your pirateness on board her ship.
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-03 18:40:57
[+]
Server: Bismarck
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Posts: 2595
By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2012-01-03 21:09:56
Every single one of these rolls is entirely useless.
I'd say these Rolls tend to have infrequent utility, yes ... but it's erroneous to say they're entirely useless.
Drachen Roll is pretty awesome when using a Summoner party to fight a NM.
Fenrir.Minjo
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-03 21:15:08
While that's potentially true, I'd say you're more likely to find a spare SMN than a spare COR, and an additional SMN will be a larger net gain than boosting even five SMN with a perfect roll.
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-04 17:05:57
Still don't see the situations where you'd drop Misers or Tacticians or even Chaos for these new rolls.
First off we have the situation of healers often being mixed in with the DD. Unlike the days of old where positioning meant something, most mages are standing nearby or close to their DD to use specific abilities like Misery or deploying avatar buffs and having to probe someone to move to deploy buffs is a fools errand.
This makes deploying the new Healer's Roll extremely niche to the point of being nigh worthless in today's sphere of play.
Gallant's Roll has some practical application when paired with Miser's for a defensive build but again this seems extremely niche in FFXIs 99 environment where things either are so far below you in level you don't need the defenses or you're doing 99 content where Phalanx isn't going to save you or even mean ***in the grand scheme of things.
Voidwatch? Better have Fanatics on or you're getting smoked.
WoE? DD here are paper to be shred through.
Dynamis? Solid offenses are your best defense.
Pet Rolls have always been niche due to sacrificing player buffs for a pet, warlock's macc increases are a joke given most mobs are either immune to a debuff or don't need the MACC buff to land a debuff. Being lvl99 with skills somewhere in the ballpark is usually enough to enfeeble damn near anything.
Choral Roll? Dancer's Roll? Would see use if COR had a 3rd roll slot to expend on those extremely situational tools.
Really I like COR but these adjustments aren't potent unless we're actually getting that 3rd roll slot which hasn't been talked about since the manifesto.
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-05 16:20:38
From official forum reps:
Quote: The damage reduction from Gallant's Roll is not a percentage, the reduction value is the number itself. (Maximum 30 damage)
In case you didn't know, you can stack this with Phalanx making it possible to increase the amount of damage reduced.
In regards to those of you asking about a third roll, we haven't solidified a specific adjustment timing so I don't have any new information for you guys at the moment. But when I do, you bet I'll be giving you guys an update!
VIP
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-05 16:31:16
Thanks seha, was afk. Updating OP.
01-03-2012 02:28 PM | Camate | Community Rep | |
| Howdy!
It’s been quite some time since we announced that we would be revamping corsair’s Phantom Roll effects, but I have some additional information about the planned changes.
※Currently these features are in-development and testing and are subject to change.
As long as there are no major development/testing problems, we are planning to introduce these changes on the test server middle or late January.
As usual, please let us know your feedback! | |
01-05-2012 02:06 PM | Rukkirii | Community Rep | |
| Odin.Mirabelle said: One question about the new Gallant's roll. Are the values a flat amount of -DT (like phalanx) or a percentage (like -DT gear)? The damage reduction from Gallant's Roll is not a percentage, the reduction value is the number itself. (Maximum 30 damage)
In case you didn't know, you can stack this with Phalanx making it possible to increase the amount of damage reduced.
In regards to those of you asking about a third roll, we haven't solidified a specific adjustment timing so I don't have any new information for you guys at the moment. But when I do, you bet I'll be giving you guys an update! | |
01-11-2012 05:54 PM | Camate | Community Rep | |
| Greetings all
I have some additional info on corsair adjustments based on some questions from the Japanese forum to share with you all.
Quote: Though Drachen Roll gives magic attack bonus to pets, this does not affect wyvern’s attack breath, and in the case of battles that are dependent on a pet’s magic attack, a dragoon will not be in the party for the bonus. In order to allow for better use of the job bonuses, we are currently looking into swapping the stats on Drachen Roll and Puppet Roll. We are making preparations so that this can be implemented onto the test server along with the other roll adjustments.
[Pre-adjustment]
Drachen Roll: Enhances pet magic attack and magic accuracy
Puppet Roll: Enhances pet accuracy
[Post-adjustment]
Drachen Roll: Enhances pet accuracy
Puppet Roll: Enhances pet magic attack and magic accuracy
Quote: Would it be possible to edit the effect of Blitzer’s Roll?
Currently, if you cast Blitzer’s Roll, the amount of TP gained is reduced and if attackers use store TP it’s not really possible to get the full benefit. Could you edit this so that the effect does not affect TP gain and reduces attack delay like Haste and March? The effect of Blitzer’s Roll is the same as Martial Arts as it reduces the attack duration, so the amount of TP gained is affected. We do not plan on changing the effect to make it similar to Haste/March as these spells have an influence on magic.
Quote: Can you make it possible to cast rolls on a single party member? It could have a 15 second recast and no Double-up possibility. If we had this, it would make it possible to use all of the hard to use pet rolls, etc. It would also be possible to put the new Gallant’s Roll on the tank only. In regards to single target rolls, I will address this and the concept of corsair as a set.
Corsairs have the ability to support party members with their rolls similar to bards; however, while bards spend most of their time during battle supporting party members with songs, corsairs don’t spend the same amount of time on support and were made to have a surplus of time so they can attack. This is why the effect duration and recast time on rolls have been set to be longer than songs.
While it is definitely possible to look into single target effects in order to effectively use rolls, the functionality of corsair would most likely be largely changed due to the increased frequency of roll usage, so we would like to continue to look into this while carefully considering whether it is really appropriate for the corsair style that we envisioned.
Quote: The enhanced cure potency for cures received is good with waltzes too, right? Unfortunately the effect from Healer’s Roll will not enhance the potency of waltzes.
While they are similar effects, the stats are separate and this is the roll for white mages. | |
01-18-2012 04:39 PM | Camate | Community Rep | |
| Dearest corsairs,
Just wanted to deliver some feedback that was being discussed on the Japanese forums in regards to Quick Draw and Rolls.
Quote: Personally, I would like to focus on Phantom Roll + Quick Draw + Weapon Skills.
(With the current system for Phantom Roll)
What is currently severely lacking is the number of charges for Quick Draw.
I would like this adjusted so that it would be possible to pull off something like the following rotation: Roll→2 Draws → Roll → 2 Draws…→Weapon Skill → Roll…
As such, I would like the number of charges for Quick Draw to be increased to about 6. Increasing the number of charges will lead to an increase in damage dealt over the same time span, so this is something we have to look into very carefully.
Since Quick Draw is an ability, it can be used quickly and there is not much down time, which means that it is more convenient than ranged attacks and it is possible to deal as much damage as a weapon skill, based on how it is used. If the number of charges is simply increased, corsairs would have more attacking power than rangers.
If we do end up increasing the number of charges, we would have to nerf its effects to maintain balance. Whether or not it would be worth nerfing the effects to increase the number of charges is an issue that we are investigating with the help of your feedback.
In addition, we plan on adding enfeebling effects to Quick Draw in the enfeebling spell adjustments we have planned, so please look forward to these changes as well. | |
01-19-2012 03:30 AM | Gildrein | Community Rep | |
| [dev1069] Corsair Job Adjustments
*This content is currently in development and may differ in the release version.
| |
02-02-2012 04:30 PM | Camate | Community Rep | |
| As a result of the development team’s investigation as well as feedback we received, we will be once again changing the effect of Gallant’s Roll from “damage reduction” to “increased defense.”
This roll’s defense increase effect will increase a character’s defense by a percentage, so characters with already high defense will benefit largely from this.
As a different idea we looked into “physical damage reduction,” but the effect itself increased by a percentage, which made it not possible to make the effect values very large thus creating the concern that the roll itself wouldn’t be too useful. Paladin’s who have a wealth of damage reduction gear would cap out too easily and attackers/back-line jobs would become disproportionate by having this along with other high defense stats, so we determined this to be an unrealistic route. | |
02-08-2012 05:55 PM | Camate | Community Rep | |
| There have been some comments from players mentioning that they don’t see the point of defense as a stat, so I’d like to go into some detail on it.
As defense increases over an enemy’s attack power, the amount of damage reduced gradually tapers off. If the enemy you are fighting is lower level and your defense is way higher, it becomes more difficult to gain large benefits even if you increase your defense.
In instances where your defense is reduced via an enemy action, where your character’s defense would normally be higher than an enemy’s attack power, and the gap between the two is narrowed, the amount of damage being reduced will start to vary largely. This shows that you’ll take more damage when your defense is lowered, giving meaning to the value of your defense.
Another easy way of feeling the effects of defense is to face off against an even match enemy and compare the damage received with your armor equipped and off.
Since the effects of defense increase as defense is stacked, the benefits are by no means small, so it would be really helpful if we could receive feedback with this in mind.
For reference, Mocchi provided some test data.
Setup
Naked/with Defender active/with Defender active + food effects (black curry bun)
Results
Naked (Defense 460): 245 damage
Defender (Defense 575): 216 damage
Defender + food (Defense 663): 197 damage
Depending on the situation, the numbers may not be the same, but this is simply intended to serve as reference. | |
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