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Here is your holy man, bathed in the blood of inno
Phoenix.Huginn
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 100
By Phoenix.Huginn 2010-11-24 13:45:06
WTF? i thought this site was about FFXI
Phoenix.Darki
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-11-24 13:47:05
Phoenix.Huginn said: WTF? i thought this site was about FFXI You thought wrong.
Now it's all about murder threads, abuse, dead puppies
and our favorite, WoW threads soon will be followed by halo crap? who knows.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 13:49:04
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.) What part of what you say is "my opinion", do you find to be disagreeable?
I'm just trying to understand what part of my opinion you are deeming to be less correct than yours?
I bolded a few things in the first portion, those things illustrate our core being.
Selfishness, selfishness drives both "good and evil"
On the flip side, why do people help others in the first place?
You can say they don't help them because it serves no purpose for them, and that they'd rather say "*** em", but what purpose does helping others serve other than a reward by either feeling good about yourself or other benefits.
It's easy to step on someone else being selfish beings an all.
It's also easy to only look at death as a bad thing, rather than the circle of life.
Server: Valefor
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Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 13:49:27
I draw the line at WoW threads, if this site becomes a Halo-fest I renounce my membership.. (Okay, not really, but seriously, *** that game.)
Server: Valefor
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Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 13:52:15
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.) What part of what you say is "my opinion", do you find to be disagreeable?
I'm just trying to understand what part of my opinion you are deeming to be less correct than yours? Quote: Does that make people evil?
Not at all. Your opinion that actions don't make a person evil, or that evil actions aren't indicative that a person is evil.
Phoenix.Darki
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-11-24 13:53:26
I'm just maaaaaayad I wanna see some runescape
/sarcasmcopyrightWoWAH.jpg
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 13:54:11
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.) What part of what you say is "my opinion", do you find to be disagreeable?
I'm just trying to understand what part of my opinion you are deeming to be less correct than yours? Quote: Does that make people evil?
Not at all. Your opinion that actions don't make a person evil, or that evil actions aren't indicative that a person is evil. Can you actually answer my questions?
I know your position, I want to know why it's your position.
edit:Hell maybe I didn't word that out the way I thought it did, anywhoo.
WHy?
Why is my opinion less valid than yours for you?
Sylph.Oddin
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1756
By Sylph.Oddin 2010-11-24 13:54:20
Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Huginn said: WTF? i thought this site was about FFXI You thought wrong.
Now it's all about murder threads, abuse, dead puppies
and our favorite, WoW threads soon will be followed by halo crap? who knows.
Forgot CoD.
Phoenix.Darki
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-11-24 13:55:58
Sylph.Oddin said: Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Huginn said: WTF? i thought this site was about FFXI You thought wrong.
Now it's all about murder threads, abuse, dead puppies
and our favorite, WoW threads soon will be followed by halo crap? who knows.
Forgot CoD. Theres a long list my friend, It just flies over my head, I mentioned WoW so nothing could be any worse.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 13:55:59
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.) What part of what you say is "my opinion", do you find to be disagreeable?
I'm just trying to understand what part of my opinion you are deeming to be less correct than yours? Quote: Does that make people evil?
Not at all. Your opinion that actions don't make a person evil, or that evil actions aren't indicative that a person is evil. Can you actually answer my questions?
I know your position, I want to know why it's your position.
Hell maybe I didn't word that out the way I thought it did, anywhoo.
WHy? If I didn't just answer your question, then rephrase it, because I thought that was the answer to your question.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 13:58:07
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.) What part of what you say is "my opinion", do you find to be disagreeable?
I'm just trying to understand why my opinion is deemed less correct than yours?
I bolded a few things in the first portion, those things illustrate our core being.
Selfishness, selfishness drives both "good and evil"
On the flip side, why do people help others in the first place?
You can say they don't help them because it serves no purpose for them, and that they'd rather say "*** em", but what purpose does helping others serve other than a reward by either feeling good about yourself or other benefits.
It's easy to step on someone else being selfish beings an all.
It's also easy to only look at death as a bad thing, rather than the circle of life. There, i fixed it, and reposted my expansion?
Care to reply to this one instead?
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 14:02:19
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: I wish it were as easy as you say it for people to change in one lifespan (65ish?), people really do not understand how easily their brain can be manipulated regardless of how you want to perceive reality, it will drive you to just keep going in circles while watching others shot straight up or down, but then when the coast is clear it would already be too late to rewrite your history.
The concept of life really is a wonder to behold, if only we can see a glimpse of the All-Knowing, but alas life is an adventure for the unlikely (which is why you should never allow your brain to rest or be corrupted), the struggle to find purpose and meaning for each is all but the same ending; imperfect beings. People change all the time.
We are in a constant state of flux man.
Your brain is constantly being manipulated by your six senses, so I don't really see where you are going with that.
I will accept the idea that life goes in circles.
But saying that you are destined to be a certain way, with no ability to change is pretty close-minded IMO.
Corruption is a real as the concept of evil.
I agree with your final statement.
It's easy to write something(war on drugs), or something(muslims) as evil/corrupt...but you know the truth of the matter.
things just aren't that simple.
my two points are just on the extreme end of what people do every day.
categorize and judge.
it's fine to do such things, but i find it better being aware of the fact that you are doing it, and exerting a bit of control on what you do it for.
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 14:16:00
Still not sure exactly what it is your asking, from what I read, you're asking what part of your opinion it is I disagree with exactly (I'm not saying my opinion is any more valid or in your words, less correct) and I answered that.
In times past, the things at our core that now drive the tendency to not help, rather than help others, helped us survive, today it drives us to do "evil" things..
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 14:21:39
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Still not sure exactly what it is your asking, from what I read, you're asking what part of your opinion it is I disagree with exactly (I'm not saying my opinion is any more valid or in your words, less correct) and I answered that.
In times past, the things at our core that now drive the tendency to not help, rather than help others, helped us survive, today it drives us to do "evil" things..
-_-
I will rephrase.
Why do you believe your opinion is more correct than mine?
I am just wanting to define the reasoning behind it.
I will also express what I'm not wanting to ask.
I don't want to know what my opinion is, I want to know why[/i] you disagree with it.
Server: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24692
By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-11-24 14:22:50
my opinion is fact because I'm Catholic.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 14:27:58
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Still not sure exactly what it is your asking, from what I read, you're asking what part of your opinion it is I disagree with exactly (I'm not saying my opinion is any more valid or in your words, less correct) and I answered that.
In times past, the things at our core that now drive the tendency to not help, rather than help others, helped us survive, today it drives us to do "evil" things..
-_-
I will rephrase.
Why do you believe your opinion is more correct than mine?
I am just wanting to define the reasoning behind it.
I will also express what I'm not wanting to ask.
I don't want to know what my opinion is, I want to know why[/i] you disagree with it.
I don't say your opinion is any less correct then mine, that's the very nature of opinions.
I simply believe humans deep down, are generally evil, since we haven't cast off the ties of out-dated survival mechanisms.. They now drive us to do evil acts, when it was needed to survive, it was for survival, now that's it's no longer needed, it's nothing more then exploitation, which IMO is just evil.
As for why I disagree with your opinion, why does anyone else disagree with anyone else's opinion? Because they have differing opinions that don't agree with each other. Simply put, you see the glass half full, I see the glass half empty, it's just a matter of perception.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2010-11-24 14:28:07
Phoenix.Darki said: evil cannot exist with out good.
Both live at the same level in everyone, it's the actions we take that make the biggest difference.
That's only true because then you couldn't have anything to compare/contrast to. If there were no things we considered to be evil and only things we considered to be good and we were never made aware of evil things then we wouldn't have a need for a word like evil. Good and Evil are perceptions molded by societal norms. There very well could be a world with only good or only evil. Not very likely in ours but its very possible. Kinda like saying there can be no light without darkness and again I believe that to be untrue.
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-11-24 14:29:48
you think Mother Teresa said "***" when she was dealing with dumbasses.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2010-11-24 14:29:57
Phoenix.Darki said: Actually we have grown quite a lot as a society in some aspects, if you can't see that you need a lot of reading to see how things were done back then.
Some of the population is creating an open mind set, hence why I say some, because most of it is very unintelligent.
Are you saying you are one of the few intelligent ones?
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2010-11-24 14:40:57
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: I'd still argue that is your opinion, and not a fact. As for who said anything about pacifism, I was making a point, that we got where we are by being ruthless, and even though we no longer have a need to be that way for survival, we are.. A large portion (if not the majority) of us will still take advantage of people and opportunities if we perceive a possible gain to come from it (however minor or major it may be).. The fact that you are more likely to see someone just keep walking when someone is having trouble, or just assume someone else will help them and keep going, or just be like "*** them" all together, to me, IMHO illustrates my points and beliefs on the matter.
At any rate, I openly admit this is all IMO.. But it's one that won't change, sure I see people do selfless acts all the time, people put their lives in danger to save someone else, it's far from uncommon.. But it's still not as common as someone attacking/killing another human being, usually for no real good reason.. (believe it or not, not wanting to have to give up half of everything you own to your husband/wife in a divorce is not a reason to put a contract on their head, someone *** your wife/girlfriend behind your back is not a reason to kill the both of them.. Someone tried to rip you off in a drug deal is not a good reason to shoot them.)
That's the whole question though isn't it? Who decides when it is or isn't right to kill someone. I mean that differs between people and you pretty much base your opinion off of what I assume is your own life experience and morality. Some believe those are very valid reasons and others never think there is a reason to kill anyone. Who's to say your right or wrong? Who's to say they are or aren't? It's like Vin said there is our desired reality what we see and want to be true and then the reality of the situation. But yeah...
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 14:59:17
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Still not sure exactly what it is your asking, from what I read, you're asking what part of your opinion it is I disagree with exactly (I'm not saying my opinion is any more valid or in your words, less correct) and I answered that.
In times past, the things at our core that now drive the tendency to not help, rather than help others, helped us survive, today it drives us to do "evil" things..
-_-
I will rephrase.
Why do you believe your opinion is more correct than mine?
I am just wanting to define the reasoning behind it.
I will also express what I'm not wanting to ask.
I don't want to know what my opinion is, I want to know why[/i] you disagree with it.
I don't say your opinion is any less correct then mine, that's the very nature of opinions.
I simply believe humans deep down, are generally evil, since we haven't cast off the ties of out-dated survival mechanisms.. They now drive us to do evil acts, when it was needed to survive, it was for survival, now that's it's no longer needed, it's nothing more then exploitation, which IMO is just evil.
As for why I disagree with your opinion, why does anyone else disagree with anyone else's opinion? Because they have differing opinions that don't agree with each other. Simply put, you see the glass half full, I see the glass half empty, it's just a matter of perception. so survival mechanisms are evil?
wat?
I didn't ask you what opinions mean, I was asking you why you have the opinion that you have, and why do you consider that opinion to be more correct than mine.
What makes you think all people are evil?
Why do you think the survival instinct is evil?
What do you think the word evil means for that matter?
Your answer to why you disagree with me...was you saying that we both have opinions and since they differ that's just how it is?
Why do you have the opinion you have?
I could answer that question for you, but that's not really gonna make you think about it, which is what my aim is.
To provoke thought on the matter, to question your ideals and understand why you have them in the first place.
I don't think it's wrong to see things the way you do, but I do think it's wrong to do it without considering other factors.
Which is my opinion.
Just believing things without giving them thought produces things you probably wouldn't consider to be right as well, such as racism.
I just want people(including myself) to be more self-aware...to make rational decisions, without just saying "it's that way for me because that's my opinion", knowing what drawn you to that opinion can make you know yourself and further define the said opinion that you have even.
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-11-24 15:11:01
Ugh =/ once again, I never said your opinion is any more or less correct or just than mine. Read that line a few times through, you seem to be stuck on the assumption that I hold my opinion up as if it has more value than yours.
Second, I have the opinions I do, because I just do, why do you have the opinions you do? Because of what you've seen through your life.. You're making this all so much more complicated and abstract than it needs to be. What I've seen of humans, gives me the opinions I have. It's not just some blind, broad assumption, it's what I've witnessed through my life.
Third, when exploitation is for survival, then it is just that, for survival, it's no more or less evil than a snake squeezing the life out of a smaller animal so that it can eat and continue to survive. Now assume that snake evolved and no longer needed to continue those actions to survive, it would be strangling the life out of something just for the sake of doing it, that same action then becomes evil, in my opinion. Assuming the animal posed no threat to it and the snake was the aggressor, it need not kill to eat, or protect itself, it's taking life simply because of an outdated survival mechanism.
[+]
Bahamut.Jetackuu
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-11-24 15:11:45
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: This is exactly why marriage is suppose to be 50% of your religion to God, since evil is much easier to achieve when you are not married and/or have no responsibility.
sorry to tell you but marriage predates any known religion.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 15:11:47
Phoenix.Darki said: Actually we have grown quite a lot as a society in some aspects, if you can't see that you need a lot of reading to see how things were done back then.
Some of the population is creating an open mind set, hence why I say some, because most of it is very unintelligent. What have we grown from?
Who says we can't have both an open and closed mind set? :P
The human race, walking talking contradictions.
I could say a completely pig-headed close minded statement in a fit of anger, and then a few days later say something meaningful and intelligent.
Same person making the statements.
Our minds open and close at will, that will may be driven by the conscious or unconscious.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
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Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-11-24 15:13:04
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Ugh =/ once again, I never said your opinion is any more or less correct or just than mine. Read that line a few times through, you seem to be stuck on the assumption that I hold my opinion up as if it has more value than yours.
Second, I have the opinions I do, because I just do, why do you have the opinions you do? Because of what you've seen through your life.. You're making this all so much more complicated and abstract than it needs to be. What I've seen of humans, gives me the opinions I have. It's not just some blind, broad assumption, it's what I've witnessed through my life.
Third, when exploitation is for survival, then it is just that, for survival, it's no more or less evil than a snake squeezing the life out of a smaller animal so that it can eat and continue to survive. Now assume that snake evolved and no longer needed to continue those actions to survive, it would be strangling the life out of something just for the sake of doing it, that same action then becomes evil, in my opinion. Assuming the animal posed no threat to it and the snake was the aggressor, it need not kill to eat, or protect itself, it's taking life simply because of an outdated survival mechanism. So you've seen humans murdered?
You are just dodging the question.
Asking yourself why you think humans are inherently asks yourself why you came to that conclusion.
Trying to facilitate a way to explain this to me allows you to actually use your brain to look back through your memories and determine how that reasoning came to be, what spurned it.
Being able to explain why also allows you to evaluate your opinions, without that ability you are just shooting yourself in the foot.
Just saying people are evil because they act on instinct sounds a bit silly to me, when in turn this said instinct can protect life making it become inherently "good"
I may be complicating it, but it's not some unnecessary complication.
and how would you not hold your opinion more than mine?
since it's your opinion that in fact means by default that you are accepting it to be over mine.
you saying that it's not is just an excuse.
[+]
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2010-11-24 15:13:58
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Nothing is fact in this world, it is what you make of it.
Untrue.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-11-24 15:14:07
Titan.Wombat said: There's nothing "holy" about this guy. Like the article said, he's evil.
Creating a priestly hierarchy is among the greatest blunders in Roman Catholicism. Placing elevated spiritual authority in the hands of those who desire it, is at odds with everything Christianity is supposed to stand for.
you mean murder, corruption, rape, pillaging, eternal suffering?
Story. said: A Catholic priest, facing criminal charges and a lawsuit alleging that he sexually abused a teenage boy, is now charged with attempting to hire someone to kill the youth, authorities said Tuesday.
Source: Source
Even the holiest of men can be tainted by evil. You would think by now people would look at the priests as evil horny fuckers and stop following them.
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