A Crafting Idea SE Should Implement.

Just a question here...

If the person asking for the synth, who provides the materials has no rights to a HQ unless they paid/tipped extra what happens when the crafter has a critical break?

Shouldn't the crafter either A) pay for the lost mats or B) buy new ones and try again?

It's all relative morality in the end. We may as well just sit down around a campfire and ask "Who is John Galt?"

You go to the crafter knowing the possibility of a break or NQ, he can't guarantee what the outcome is even at capped craft.

crafter's insurance doesn't exist

It was just an idea, haha.


I guess I'll just never understand a lot of people's view about HQ'ing a craft for someone, lol. I know it takes a LONG *** time to get to 100, and to accumulate all that GP for your Skill+ items...I've been working on that steadily for a while and I'm not even close to seeing the end lol. I would be the type to Tip a person if they HQ'd something for me, but if I didn't want to (or didn't have enough gil), the crafter still has no right to keep my item.

If I was the crafter I wouldn't keep it, tip or no tip. I know getting that high is a hell of a lot of work, but what am I doing at that moment in time?...I'm taking 30 seconds out of what I'm doing to click a few things, put a few things in the craft window and hit 'Ok'. They paid for, or did what they had to do to acquire the materials and I'm not using any of my gil or effort at the time to help them, so what right do I have to keep their item if I HQ? None. Doesn't matter to me if the HQ goes for 10k, or 10mil, I wouldn't ask for anything (and I really don't have much gil).

But anyways, I digress. I didn't post this idea because of anything that happened to me or because of someone I don't trust lol. It simply popped in my head and I thought it was much more do-able and much better than any other ideas I had for this game so I posted it lol.

You have a point. But again if your scared of a fail then buy it from the AH. Not sure about other servers but on kujata were HQ crazy. People mainly only get others to craft something for one another for the sole purpose of an HQ. Its at your own risk~



I understand what you mean. Its.... well a way to put it is the tip or payment whatever you wanna call it on an HQ is a way for making up for all the work you did to get to where you are. given that crafter probably already made it back or will soon enough. But again its a service of your request, one which the person is not obligated to fulfill. I don't exactly see anything wrong with your crafting system. Its just some ppl do want a tip or w/e. And i know they probably wouldn't like it unless their was a tip section or something lol. Most HQ's i don't even charge. (cooking is where i make the majority of my cash, and its not worth it imo) with my leather it just depends.

Here's my two gil on this:

It seems pretty obvious to me that a tip is a kind gesture to show somebody if they've taken the time to craft something. Even if it only took ten seconds to do one synthesis, a tip is still the polite and gratifying thing to do. Think of it in this light, for anyone who hasn't yet: You're effectively paying a level 100 Blacksmith maybe 20k a synth to make your Imperial Wootz Ingots for you, to save you having to spend millions of gil to raise Smithing to do it yourself.

I certainly don't expect tips when I synth for people, nor am I inpolite enough to demand one, but I sure as hell remember those who didn't give me one.

As for breakings, I would never, ever replace lost materials because one of my synthesis failed. I forewarn everyone I craft for and say "I will not replace lost materials, are you okay with that?" My reasoning is simple. I didn't spend millions and millions of my own money levelling a craft to pay for other people's items. I understand fully that my synthesis broke and lost the materials, but I still will never replace them. If breakages were something we had control over, I would say "Sure I'll replace", knowing full well it was my fault that I lost the materials. As it stands, it's not something we can control, and it'd be rude and ungrateful of somebody to expect the crafter to replace lost materials.

I spent a fortune pumping my mog house with Overwhelming Fire Energy for Imperial Wootz Ingots and I always ensure to face Fire's strong direction when crafting them. What more can I possibly do to avoid losing the materials? I look down on anyone who blames a crafter for losing their materials, as should any crafter.



/agree+1, very well said. This is clearly coming from a Crafter's point of view. Serious crafters take the time to level the subjobs, to get the guild items, to pump their mog house with the relevant element.

It's only too easy to go "QQ" on crafters when they lose your precious money, but just think how much money they've saved you by having that craft available. Imagine if every crafter went on strike because people wanted their lost materials back? Everyone would need to level the crafts themselves.

I think it goes without saying the customer with the mats and request for the synthed item must adhere and acknowledge the risk that comes with any item being crafted. There is always a possibility of a break/crit break.

I slowly see this thread subject derailing off subject to what good tipping etiquette is for the service of those who took the time, money and effort to level a craft up all the way, and I most certainly agree 100%.

However, I like the idea of this synth menu idea because with the current system now, there is absolutely zero obligation for both parties to adhere to their agreements. We all know 99% of the players in this game are not trustworthy. We see TONS of threads on these forums about so-and-so stealing "X" item or so-and-so ran off with HQ when he agreed to trade it, etc. But with a simple menu with options for trade agreements, terms can be met on both ends before any action is taken that cannot be undone. It's protection for both the customer and the crafter alike.

For those who find the lack of trust to be a problem with this, you have to remember that you the crafter have complete control over the terms and agreements. You tell the customer the conditions, policies, and terms of any circumstance that may happen when they hand over their mats.

In short, if they break, it's the customer's loss and risk, if you NQ or HQ it, you can agree beforehand if they pay gratuity or not (after all they're using your hard earned service). There's already enough trust issues with people in game, and if a simple menu can prevent mass quantities of future Q_Q GM calls on so-and-so who cheated you out on a deal or making more threads on forums about so-and-so being a scumbag for whatever reason, the better.

Less drama was a good thing last time I checked.

I think you should stop playing and interacting with anyone you don't know then if you're thinking that way. That's your issue... Some players aren't trustworthy yeah, like in every population, you have few subjects doing bad things. But 99% ?? No way.

It was an exaggerated figure on purpose. We've seen the ugly, greedy side of players when it comes to obtaining precious e-items. Unfortunately this seems to take up an alarming majority with ever increasing figures and reports that we see on a regular basis. All the more reason to appreciate and celebrate the honest and legit minority that have some sense of honor and morals.

Well unless you can provide us figures, I won't really believes this. On the global amount of "synth trade", how many of these leads to GM call and complaints ? I'd say less than 10% of them (randomly, got no numbers :d).

To me, majority of crafters are completely legit and do not steal their customers. Maybe this is a bit less true now since we can server transfer (so if you thief on server X, just go to Y and start a new life), still $30 lol.

Also customer is free to choose who'll synth his stuff. If you ask someone from a old and established end-game Ls, chances to get ripped off are pretty low really.

what exactly in your opinion gives the customer the right to keep the HQ no matter what? the customer is not always right, especially when it's your work to make the HQ.

i kinda agree on this.

person 1 shouts for help for crafting skill x.

Person 2 send him a tell, "I'll do it for 50k"

Person 1 trade person 2 mats and 50k.

Mats break. crafter get his gil and telling person 1 "That's too bad"

Ofcourse if you are the crafter you'd say "hey, ***happens, buy new mats and we can try again"

But if you HQ you going like "OMFG its mine and you cant have it, you gave me items and gil to make this item for you, but idc, its MINE"

I don't see why you would agree with that. The two circumstances are entirely different.

Think of it this way. You don't have to pay the fee the crafter is asking for. This is entirely optional. If you don't want to pay a fee for whatever reason, find another crafter! Nobody is making you use the one of sixty crafters available on your server. Secondly, the crafter has paid millions to level their craft so that they can make a comfortable living in Vana'diel. They did not level their craft so that they could craft you an extremely rare and expensive item!

Not to mention the time investment needed to level a craft, its many subjobs, and get the guild items for it. Again, as I said in a previous post, crafters also have zero control over whether or not they fail a synthesis. It's not like they maliciously hit a "Break" button on their keyboard which makes the synthesis blow up. Why should another player pay all this money over something they have no control over?

Anybody who, at this point, asks "Why should the person buying the materials?" should get off the forums now and not even consider replying. YOU want the item made, YOU pay for it. NOT the crafter. As said before, crafters do not level their craft for other people.

It's sad, but it's true.

Another thing to remember is, chance is a major part of synthesis, and chance is the one thing that really screws crafters over. Everything that returns good profit or results in crafting is down to chance. It's chance whether or not you receive a skill up. It's chance whether or not you high quality. It's chance whether or not you fail a synth and lose millions of gil. Sure, crafters have a few things that supposedly increase these chances, but ultimately crafters themselves can do nothing about it.

Let's look at Cursed Hauberk -1 as an example.

The chance of a Cursed Hauberk -1 being made is 1%. This is presuming that in 100 synths, I will HQ 1 of them. A single Cursed Hauberk on Garuda currently costs 373,000 gil to make. To make 100 of these, I would need 37,300,000 gil. A Cursed Hauberk sells to a vendor for around 26,000 gil. Selling back 99 of the 100 I make of these to a vendor would make me back 2,600,000 gil. It would be possible to sell the occasional one on the Auction House, but considering an Earthen Abjuration: Body enters the server about once a week minimum from Nidhogg and maybe once a week from Einherjar Shells, the normal quality doesn't sell very often.

So the total lost gil from 99/100 synths for this item would be just under 35,000,000. Go to FFXIAH's Cursed Hauberk -1 page again and look at the "Wanted" price for this item. What would you say the chances of selling this back at a break even price would be?

I know for an absolute fact if I was crafting somebody a Cursed Hauberk, I'd make it damn clear I was keeping a HQ. I would agree fully that it's wrong to agree to give away a HQ and keep it (as somebody recently did with Hades' Sainti +1 in another thread).

Face it. Crafting High Quality, rare items is very rare, and very expensive. Nobody has the right to a high quality item "just because they bought the materials". Verbal agreements are junk. High Quality belongs to a crafter, as far as I'm concerned, providing they make this clear before the synthesis and providing they give the buyer of the materials a replacement NQ or the cash for materials back.

If you want to be rich from synthing high quality items with materials you buy, level a damn craft and do it yourself! This can not be said enough, and it's the most pinnacle point in this "Good Vs. Bad" discussion about keeping high quality synths. People blaming crafters for keeping high qualities need to get a reality check and stop playing the morality card.

Still not convinced?

Ask yourself this. If you spent 10,000,000 gil levelling a craft like so many crafters have and made the rarest and most expensive item available for your craft, would you trade it to a random player? No, you would not, so why trade it to somebody because they provided the materials? The principal is exactly the same.

Players don't shout saying "{Bonecraft}er {Can I have it?} {Hades' Sainti PLUS ONE} {Can I have it?}", and if they did, they would soon become a joke within the community.

Edit to Korpg's following post:

This debate is an entirely different kettle of fish when all you're looking to lose is 2k from Millioncorn.

Besides, "taking advantage" isn't quite the right term. If somebody wants a synth for free from a level 100 Blacksmith who's spent upwards of 10 million gil levelling their craft, 6-10 weeks of time on guild points and levelling subcrafts... Well, actually, who's taking advantage there? Taking advantage my foot.

I suppose companies charging slightly extra on imported goods are taking advantage too? It's called business.

When will people stop taking advantage of others?

If somebody wants a synth, is willing to pay for the mats, and shouts for somebody to synth it, and I happen to have that synth leveled up, I'll do it for free. I leveled my synth up to 100 (hypothetically, since my cooking is the only one close to that, but still) so I can make money synthing products for myself. The person who rather have the synth made in front of them and also happens to have the mats wants to get it synthed, then do it, trade them the item(s) back after you are done, and be done with it. If you HQ, give the HQ to the person and say congrats. If you break, say you are sorry, try again.

If you have the synth leveled, and the guy only asks for 1 synth, give him that one synth for free. If he wants to take advantage of you, thats when you start charging per synth.

Why would a level 100 Blacksmith level Blacksmith to level 100? So he could be in business charging people who shout out the need for a level 100 Blacksmith? Or to synth level 100 Blacksmith items to sell for himself?

Why would a level 100 Cooking person level Cooking to level 100? So s/he can charge out the *** for sushi? Or to compete with others on sushi? There is a difference there.

I guess since I don't have any other synths to 100 yet, I shouldn't be talking. But then again, when people need something like a stack of meat kabobs or anything like that, as long as they produce the synth mats, I would be happy to synth them for them. If I HQ the first synth, good for them. If they start coming to me regularly, then that is when I start charging. I'm not an oven for people to turn on/off at their pleasure.

So basically, if 1 person wants to have 1 item synthed, why do you need to charge them for 10 seconds of your time? If you get lucky and HQ that one synth, then why should you charge extra for that one bonus item?

so basically what you are saying is that you'll craft for anyone for FREE if they have the mats and let them keep HQs? you sir are stupid. you must not have spent millions of gil taking you cooking to 82. you are the reason people get pissed off when crafters want a crafting fee. while you might have leveled the crafting for yourself, allowing other people with ingredients to *** out your cooking skills hurts EVERY other cook on your server.

ok, this was way too long for me to even bother to read it all.

how many crafts can you lv to 100?

1?

No ***.

So if you have a craft at 100, but need something HQ'd from another craft you're screwed?

question. Am I the only person who actually pay the person who makes the synth? And I'm not beeing cheap when I pay either.

This thread was about an option. So that incase both ppl agreed that the mat provider can keep that HQ if there would be one, the crafter would not be able to go back on his word. So what does all this have to do with that option?

If you agreed on one thing, its only fair to be able to be assured the agreement isnt broken, by any of the 2 parts.

Have I ever said that I think all 100+3 crafters should make free HQ items for everyone?

No.

This was about the actual topic, did you even read that?

exactly. i find your opinion completely ridiculous. lets think about it this way...if you were a woman would you want a guy (not a doctor or anything just some random guy) telling you how to deal with your period?

I don't personally charge for the occasional synth. I must've made a good hundred Imperial Wootz Ingots through shouts or for friends on Garuda, never charged for a single one. Received a lot of tips and taken every one of them, but I've never asked or implied for one.

If somebody wants to bug me for six synths or thirty synths, then yes I will charge, that is a considerable amount of time that I could spend helping a linkshell member open a coffer, level my fishing, level a job, or even doing something around the house.

You're really overlooking the big picture though. Making a fuss out of a couple high quality Mithkabobs would be pathetic at best, but making a fuss out of a pair of Hades' Sainti +1 is not something to laugh about.



It is pathetic that possibly one of the best posts in this debate to get the discussion rolling is responded to with this senseless, unconsidered garbage. This is the most pedantic two paragraphs I've ever seen you post on here, and there's been a lot of them as any regular reader knows. If you really don't care for this debate at all, please refrain from responding rather than filling an otherwise excellent debate with this pedantic garbage.



Agreed.

Edit: Same goes for Zanno.

/cheer woodum

Had I said anything, I'd get a smart *** remark.... See that Whopper, I'm not the only one taking a match to your postings...

The original topic was responded to and this debate branched off from the original topic. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the whole purpose of a conversation is that it doesn't always stay precisely on topic and that a clearer, broader understanding of the original topic is reached.



I was not suggesting people levelled crafts to 100 to make a specific synth rather than shouting. I was actually agreeing with you and jesting at this idea as an alternative, reinforcing my point about how much crafters deserve credit. Ah, but of course, my post was too long for you to read through. Maybe next time you should actually, y'know, read my post before you attempt to disect it.

Asides from that point, your post was pretty pointless. You even confessed to not reading my post, thus overlooking the whole debate itself. Your post contributes in no way to the debate. If you wish to join in with our debate, please read through my post and discuss the points I raised. If not, contribute constructively or don't contribute at all.

what should be implemented is some more foods/fish/armor/recipes ect that don't suck. i would like to see some lower end store TP gear. also i am talking about new gear, not just the same old gear with new colors -.-;

i would also like to see a new craft. possibly a craft allowing yourself to scribe a scroll. it could be tied into the storyline of wotg somehow.

while the original idea of a trade box option is something to think about, i feel that it would cause more harm than help in the long run.

Because your post is so off-topic. it doesnt make sense to me to argue how much it cost to lv this or that to lv 100, when the question was, "would it be a good idea to implement something like this?"

on topic.

Why would an option like that be so horrible?

If both ppl agree that crafter get to keep HQ, fine then dont use it. Otherwise, use it. Simple enough?

No point in going in depth what it takes to craft whatever item, because its not relevant. For all i care it can be a bee spatha +1

it's simple enough already to not have SE even think about making something like this and focus their efforts elsewhere.

player 1 i need this made i have mats
player 2 okay i charge this much. please trade it with your ingredients. <insert converstaion about HQ results here>

if you have a problem not trusting the crafter ASK AROUND! the majority of ninja lotters/synth stealers are repeat offenders.

As I said to Korpg, the original post was responded to by many people and the subject slowly turned into a debate about "Good Vs. Bad" in High Quality crafting. I responded to this with my opinions thusly, contributing further to the debate. You have still to do this, instead only riiterting how off topic we have gone. In a discussion forum, there is no such thing as "Off Topic". These forums are here for us to discuss anything, and a thread as loose and open as this with a subject that many people feel passionately about, you can only expect the discussion to change in the course of posting.

Do you have anything to say on our subject, by the way? I would love to hear your opinions on many of the points made, as would many. This is, after all, a debate!

However, back to your points made:

The idea itself is very idealistic. I can't say I can think of anybody I know with a 100 craft who would agree to use such a system for the major level synths. Whilst it is entirely true that some people are less self-minded than others, you would be very hard pressed to find a 100 crafter willing to accept these conditions if a -1 Cursed item was in question.

Somebody's words are enough for me. I generally trust people quite quickly, it has stung me many times, but it's also made me some wonderful friends as well. As LD just said, if you don't trust somebody's word, you can always find somebody else to synth for you.

I always make it perfectly clear before executing a synthesis like Cursed Hauberk, "If I high Quality this, I give you the money for your materials back, okay?" If they say no, I trade their materials back and wish them well. I am an honest person, and would not make an attempt to keep anything that wasn't mine.

If this person then accuses me of stealing, such as somebody once did when I HQ'd a Haubergeon for them (after clearly saying I would give them the money for an NQ if I were to HQ), then I'd just say I forewarned them and that it's their fault for agreeing to it. This is when one hurt customer turns around and starts spreading rumours that you stole their item, or that you stole their materials. It's amazing how childish people can be in response to what was originally a kind gesture.

You have to remember that the majority of "bad" crafters that "steal" High qualities after saying they'd give them say they'd give them to gain a little face because they're not really expecting to high quality.



You seem to misunderstand. This is the point and is the point that created this thread in the first place. No crafter is going to cry over trading somebody a Bee Spatha +1. No crafter is going to "steal" "somebody"'s Bee Spatha +1. Crafters have bigger fish to fry than a bloody Bee Spatha +1. If the items in question had values of multiple millions, then yes, it's very relevant.

I really do not understand why this is difficult to understand. Bee Spatha +1 is ***, to be blunt, and has very limited value, use and appeal. A Cursed Harness -1, on the other hand, is very expensive, has infinite use (Once you trade it in, you'll never get it back) and has very high appeal.

Comparing the two is just not right.

LOL.

I wasn't comparing bee spatha +1 with a Cursed Harness -1. I was stating that the itmes themselves are irrelevant. becuase this wasnt a thread about high value items vs low value items. OP was asking for opinions about implement an option.

What if I feed you with the mats to synth me cerb mantle +1, i give you a deal, everytime its not HQ I sell the non HQ and split the the gil from it with you, in return if there will be a HQ I will get it. Maybe I'd have to pay for the mats for 50+ synths for this HQ. And maybe it would make me feel better to know that you don't have a change of heart when that HQ finally occour.

It is a very rare item, but we had an agreement that since I've fed you with the mats, only because you agreed that I'd get the HQ when it eventually come. And I've also been paying you alot of gil from the 50+ synths that wasnt HQ.

Now, maybe you can be trusted to not keep the HQ for yourself, maybe you can't. But if you were in my shoes, wouldn't you feel better knowing that the crafter you made an agreement with can't change their mind in the last min?

If you agree with ppl you craft for that you will keep the HQ if that should be the case, and give them gil for the mats, thats fine.

Still, an option like this, since its an option it doesn't have to be used. thats the whole point with the word option, isn't it?

You are contradicting yourself in every manner, and as usual, ignoring every point made back to you. You were comparing the two, because you were claiming that the item was irrelevant. Claiming the item is irrelevant is grouping both items in the "Irrelevant" category. This is comparing them. Putting them both into the same category brings them both into the discussion.

You should really try thinking before you post, you are making yourself to be very confused or very silly. Also, once again, please stop being such an ***. It's getting very tiresome, and nobody is impressed with your "tough guy" attitude. If you can't discuss civilly or properly, please go and find somebody who deserves your demeaning and infantile attitude, and leave everyone who wishes to progress this debate to it.

Although on the subject of your post, that's fine, if you find somebody to agree to it. I would be highly skeptical if somebody approached me with that offer, though. Seems like I'd stand to gain a little too much for it to be true.

the point is if its there people will WANT to use it. and if the crafter says no thanks the customer will think OMG he is shady!

plus....SE will probably tax it. you know i'm right.

Haha, You sure are LD, you sure are!

The real question is, 5% or 10%? I'd say 5%; they've got all that hard-worked "5% Jeuno Tax Script" going to waste now!