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Will PLD be useful again at lvl 99?
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-13 02:02:14
Bahamut.Dasva said: Also screw making all the hate yourself. Get a blu with some of that +crit atmas and full buffs and *** SATACAEF some spells onto the tank(s)
Because not everyone has a blu/thf, and it is the only job that can justify subbing /thf (I think? Pretty sure.)
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:05:24
Bahamut.Dasva said: Also screw making all the hate yourself. Get a blu with some of that +crit atmas and full buffs and *** SATACAEF some spells onto the tank(s) I want to try this sometime lol. I'm sure it's not really worth doing, but I want to see what kind of numbers I can do.
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:05:25
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: There's still no substantial difference between enemy TP gain with a regular weapon and an attacks twice weapon. Three times+ and you'd have a point. Mobs are completely random when they TP, but's almost never at 100, most enemy TP gain is wasted.
If it is indeed a mob that is extremely dangerous to have TP often, just disengage, not like Atonement is worth anything anymore anyways. Use cure cheats, Refresh 2 makes it less shitty. Physical DoT enmity is laughably low.
Sure monsters most of the time don't tp right when they hit 100% but im sure (well reasonably sure) that they can't tp before they hit 100% or that they need some level of tp before they can use these moves.
If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone.
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:06:38
Bahamut.Aiyana said: Bahamut.Dasva said: Also screw making all the hate yourself. Get a blu with some of that +crit atmas and full buffs and *** SATACAEF some spells onto the tank(s) Because not everyone has a blu/thf, and it is the only job that can justify subbing /thf (I think? Pretty sure.) Not everyone does but most decent sized groups have at least one. Or at least have a friend that might be interested in helping with one hint hint. Still need to get to 85 though lol.
Also not sure... with razed ruin it might be more useful for those jobs without crit ws.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:07:12
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone. This is not the case. Go check out Kanican's LJ and look at the enmity tables. Atonement just happens to be the only way a PLD's going to reach the enmity cap anywhere near as fast as an aggressive melee, even one who's cotanking.
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:07:28
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Bahamut.Dasva said: Also screw making all the hate yourself. Get a blu with some of that +crit atmas and full buffs and *** SATACAEF some spells onto the tank(s) I want to try this sometime lol. I'm sure it's not really worth doing, but I want to see what kind of numbers I can do. There was a thread the other day. Guy was getting like 3-5k with vanity dive and tyhpoon
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-10-13 02:08:57
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: There's still no substantial difference between enemy TP gain with a regular weapon and an attacks twice weapon. Three times+ and you'd have a point. Mobs are completely random when they TP, but's almost never at 100, most enemy TP gain is wasted. If it is indeed a mob that is extremely dangerous to have TP often, just disengage, not like Atonement is worth anything anymore anyways. Use cure cheats, Refresh 2 makes it less shitty. Physical DoT enmity is laughably low. Sure monsters most of the time don't tp right when they hit 100% but im sure (well reasonably sure) that they can't tp before they hit 100% or that they need some level of tp before they can use these moves. If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone.
Suffice to say, a PLD taking it nice and slow won't be holding hate very long with new cap. Like I said, the losses outweigh the gains.
Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:11:59
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone. This is not the case. Go check out Kanican's LJ and look at the enmity tables. Atonement just happens to be the only way a PLD's going to reach the enmity cap anywhere near as fast as an aggressive melee, even one who's cotanking. Sanguine blade!!! Vorpal with razed ruin? Interest you speak of that though. Without dmg pld is going to have a harder and harder time keeping hate.
I forget the exact amounts but assuming they current trends continue at 99 emnity gained per hp cured was down like around 20% or so compared to at 75.
And emnity gained per dmg dealt was up a similar amount.
Assuming of course you curing yourself or similar lvl person and you keep a similar lvl gap of mobs you fight at 99.
Ie static emnity from jas/spells or dmg is where thigns are going for tanking. And alot of spells were nerfed lol
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:14:12
Bahamut.Dasva said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone. This is not the case. Go check out Kanican's LJ and look at the enmity tables. Atonement just happens to be the only way a PLD's going to reach the enmity cap anywhere near as fast as an aggressive melee, even one who's cotanking. Sanguine blade!!! Vorpal with razed ruin? Interest you speak of that though. Without dmg pld is going to have a harder and harder time keeping hate.
I forget the exact amounts but assuming they current trends continue at 99 emnity gained per hp cured was down like around 20% or so compared to at 75.
And emnity gained per dmg dealt was up a similar amount.
Assuming of course you curing yourself or similar lvl person and you keep a similar lvl gap of mobs you fight at 99. Point was more that you can cap hate without meleeing, not that it's efficient in any way shape or form. It's actually easier now if anything since you've basically got infinite MP.
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:16:01
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Point was more that you can cap hate without meleeing, not that it's efficient in any way shape or form. It's actually easier now if anything since you've basically got infinite MP. Sure. I'm just saying it's going to get increasingly difficult. And keeping both values capped at all times is going to be increasingly important unless they raise the caps like they really really need to do given how much more emnity DDs will get even if they dealt the same amount of dmg and they are clearly doing more and will have to do more over time given higher hp mobs
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:16:45
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: If that is the case and a pld still needs to keep hate by meleeing I don't see a problem with making every little bit count to slow down the monsters tp rate. You said there is no substantial difference and for all I know you may be right but it is a difference none the less. let other jobs worry about doing the max possible damage and let pld... well protect everyone. This is not the case. Go check out Kanican's LJ and look at the enmity tables. Atonement just happens to be the only way a PLD's going to reach the enmity cap anywhere near as fast as an aggressive melee, even one who's cotanking. You will have to forgive the noobish question as im am not a pld player but Atonement is a ws... how does a pld gain the tp to use it without meleeing? (I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't sub /sam just to do this and items are a limited source) Plus wouldn't they have to keep meleeing anyway because of the loss of hate due to attacks?
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:19:58
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: You will have to forgive the noobish question as im am not a pld player but Atonement is a ws... how does a pld gain the tp to use it without meleeing? (I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't sub /sam just to do this and items are a limited source) Plus wouldn't they have to keep meleeing anyway because of the loss of hate due to attacks? Shield blocks and and taking dmg would get you some. And sams can give you some. But yeah not at any decent rate. Also You can get plenty of hate from cure cheats and flash. Remember plds tanked before atonement. They kidna sucked but yeah
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:21:53
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: You will have to forgive the noobish question as im am not a pld player but Atonement is a ws... how does a pld gain the tp to use it without meleeing? (I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't sub /sam just to do this and items are a limited source) Plus wouldn't they have to keep meleeing anyway because of the loss of hate due to attacks? No, you can outpace CE loss from damage taken via non-melee methods. It's just slower since PLD doesn't get any efficient CE gainers like BLU or pre-nerf RDM.
Seriously, go read Kaeko's enmity research. You'll have a much better understanding of tanking mechanics.
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:26:08
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: You will have to forgive the noobish question as im am not a pld player but Atonement is a ws... how does a pld gain the tp to use it without meleeing? (I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't sub /sam just to do this and items are a limited source) Plus wouldn't they have to keep meleeing anyway because of the loss of hate due to attacks? No, you can outpace CE loss from damage taken via non-melee methods. It's just slower since PLD doesn't get any efficient CE gainers like BLU or pre-nerf RDM.
Seriously, go read Kaeko's enmity research. You'll have a much better understanding of tanking mechanics. No thanks I've read it all before when I've stumbled apon his black mage guide. I'm not gonna review it so I have a better understanding about a job I don't have nor will I ever level.
Also if its slower then the pld is better off meleeing anyway.
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2010-10-13 02:27:30
Actually really it's not about jobs. Just how emnity itself works. Which is kinda good for blms to know lol.
Also blm/nin manawall with like 40 refresh tank ftw?
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:30:10
Bahamut.Dasva said: Actually really it's not about jobs. Just how emnity itself works. Which is kinda good for blms to know lol.
Also blm/nin manawall with like 40 refresh tank ftw? Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:31:12
Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now.
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:36:01
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now. Willing ignorance? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have. What is the point of reading something I've already read and taken the info needed to improve my skills?
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By Ifrit.Bloodbathboy 2010-10-13 02:37:22
I hope they raise the cap. Can be hard as hell holding hate at times . Thank God for cures!!
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:38:47
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now. Willing ignorance? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have. What is the point of reading something I've already read and taken the info needed to improve my skills? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: I'm not gonna review it so I have a better understanding about a job I don't have nor will I ever level. You were saying?
Why are you even involved in this discussion again, aside from whiteknighting for your terribad shellmate?
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Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-13 02:43:39
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now. Willing ignorance? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have. What is the point of reading something I've already read and taken the info needed to improve my skills? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: I'm not gonna review it so I have a better understanding about a job I don't have nor will I ever level. You were saying?
Why are you even involved in this discussion again, aside from whiteknighting for your terribad shellmate? 
Paladin. White Knight. Dame Sifference?
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:44:07
But he's not interested in PLD!!!
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Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-13 02:45:11
But he's defending a PLD!
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:47:13
Nonsense, BLM doesn't get Cover.
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Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-13 02:47:40
The irony here is that PLD needs defending these days.
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By Ifrit.Bloodbathboy 2010-10-13 02:48:52
PLD is fun. But at times now its not easy holding hate. You can pack on the VIT, but if you can't hold hate you are just a weak DDer, a very crappy nuker, and a weak healer.
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2010-10-13 02:49:35
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now. Willing ignorance? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have. What is the point of reading something I've already read and taken the info needed to improve my skills? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: I'm not gonna review it so I have a better understanding about a job I don't have nor will I ever level. You were saying? Why are you even involved in this discussion again, aside from whiteknighting for your terribad shellmate? The point of these forums is to discussion is it not? Thats the only reason I was here and I do so all the time. Sadly that involes talking with people who can't even be civil but that is beside the point.
Why should I read something I've already read before and gotten all the information I need to play the two jobs that I use? and while im asking questions why do you feel the need to insuilt/troll people all the time?
Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-13 02:51:33
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Nevermind, willing ignorance and stubbornness is a combination I don't feel like dealing with right now. Willing ignorance? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: Let me be clearer I did read it before and from that info I took what I needed to be better at hate management. I only said im not reviewing it to be a better pld.... a job I don't have nor will I ever have. What is the point of reading something I've already read and taken the info needed to improve my skills? Titan.Darkwizardzin said: I'm not gonna review it so I have a better understanding about a job I don't have nor will I ever level. You were saying? Why are you even involved in this discussion again, aside from whiteknighting for your terribad shellmate? The point of these forums is to discussion is it not? Thats the only reason I was here and I do so all the time. Sadly that involes talking with people who can't even be civil but that is beside the point.
Why should I read something I've already read before and gotten all the information I need to play the two jobs that I use? and while im asking questions why do you feel the need to insuilt/troll people all the time?
Because he answered your question with a misdirect to a site. You refused to find the answer yourself, and he refused to spoonfeed you.
Is it that hard to figure out? Learn for yourself if you want to know. If you aren't willing to do that, you obviously don't want to know. Stop asking.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-13 02:55:58
Titan.Darkwizardzin said: The point of these forums is to discussion is it not? Thats the only reason I was here and I do so all the time. Sadly that involes talking with people who can't even be civil but that is beside the point.
Why should I read something I've already read before and gotten all the information I need to play the two jobs that I use? and while im asking questions why do you feel the need to insuilt/troll people all the time? The problem is that you're discussing things that you don't understand and still ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW (/isla) when you really don't. Given that apparently have no intention of learning anything from this discussion either, this entire discussion was a waste of time unless a lurker took away something useful from it. By waste of time, I mean moreso than the usual forum shenanigans.
I actually don't troll all that often. As for the rest, credit where it's due - I was civil with you until you made it clear that you're engaging in willing ignorance.
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It seems to me that PLD is not what it once was as a "tank". With the amount of HP, and buffs other jobs can now get, along side the DMG most DD's put out, make it almost useless to use PLD's like they once were.
I think at 99 there are some exciting possibilitys for the job including haste, and other abilitys.
Any ideas how the job may change?
In 2004 it was pretty popular to stack VIT and DEF, 2010, haste ad ACC, it looks like SE is pushing for more -PDT% but who knows. :D
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