Hundred Knives

1) the loss of tp via max obtainable dual wield by dnc puts tp-per-hit at 4.7-4.8 which is fixed by dnc af3

2) dnc should NOT be missing steps (if we are talking about well geared elitest since that seems to be the mindset). if a dnc misses a step, he/she shouldnt be fighting the mob

af1 hands
af2 feet
chloria earring
^ give increased acc for steps

need i point out what acc gear dnc should be macro'd in for steps?


what is the merited recast of meditate? 2 minutes and 45 seconds?

recast of reverse flourish: 30 seconds

presto -> step -> step -> reverse flourish = every 30-35s (including animation delay) returns 55 tp.


in referance why sam wasnt brought up, is because the dmg mods are pretty stable: .8 -> 1 (with 1 or 2 extremes .75 and 1.1)

piercing is a far more radical: .5 on half the mobs and the other half 1.25

due to this fact it makes DNC dmg more situational where as there are mobs that dnc should not try to even say they are a good DD for.

in other words: dont take it as a shot against sam's it was merely pointing out the obvious about dnc.

no, it wasn't really a shot against sam..i didn't take it as a diss or anything..i just think comparing dmg class bonus vs no bonus is a little biased...granted I'm not even sure what mobs are honestly weak to slashing lol...just sayin the math is a lil biased. and the merited recast of meditate is 2 1/2 minutes which yields anywhere from 140-180 TP with the 2+ gears...

and nobody is 100% accurate on steps, regardless of gear, i dont think you'll land every step, not to mention the JA delay of those steps. I dont think the step acc+ gear will push you past the 95% cap as that would be fairly broken. and nobody seemed to mention WS dmg either lol...thats kinda what sam does...and does well lol. Sengi/Sekka make for some nice boosts to DPS, something that dnc doesn't get unless /sam and at that its sekka not sengi

damage mods

i said 30-35s which should include delays.

and yes you're right, its not possible for it to be 100% accurate and yeah its a kick in the chest if you miss with all that. which in that case you have to wait 15s

also no foot rise! gives 5 steps every 3min.

as for dmg it will never be as high as sam, chains such as darkness when used on dnc is stronger iirc. the point of the matter is that dnc can ws more often than sams can which makes up for the 150 or so dmg lost in comparison to sam's dmg

Only 150 difference? I think you need to meet some better SAMs.

rather i think you need to meet better dnc

INC OVERTIRED WALOTEXT CONTINUE READING AT OWN RISK : )

Theres a bit of a problem in this argument that two very different jobs are being compaired here...
If you were to take all the gear and score it based on how good it was then gear a sam and a dnc with exactly the same level gear the sam "Should" do more damage, and i say should because face it theres alot of sams out there that just arn't very good.

Now when you take into account mobs like birds that are weak to peircing then dnc can pull ahead of a job like sam even when they use polearm. (the ACC bonus traits are there to compensate for the lower skill because if it was a A-/+ then it deffinetly would be on par with other DDs)

Instead of compeating against eachother though lets look at it this way. Sam and dnc will gain tp at a similar rate if the dnc is doing it right (if /sam should be gaining a little bit more which is gunna account for keeping haste samba up and the odd missed step). Now evisceration is a gravitation WS, Tachi:gekko is a distorion weaponskill, and we all know what happens when you put those two skill chains together. So lets assume all that crazy 70%+ attack speed boosts, ive been awake fro a solid 30 hours so not gunna care about how accurate this is but lets say 20seconds to get tp, thats a darkness SC every 20seconds up to double your WS damage if you work with the dancers sams and your nukeing mages will love you too for the MB oppertunitys.

"But i can sekka and make my own darkness"

Yes you can, every 3 min (or is it 5?). This wont work ot everywhere mind you but in an exp party its not hard and since those WS are strong anyways if your not always hitting the SC not much lost.

Now sorry for the long post which is quite derailed from the OP, i just feel people need to stop looking at how they as an individual perform and look instead at how the group as a whole performs...

You may be able to reach a 70% haste but take away the brd, and haster and in the case of non dnc, the haste samba and its not there any more :P

^this

the major reason Im arguing about this is because dnc deserves more credit than it's given. to many people look at it as loldnc use haste samba and stay out of the way.

I never said I hate dnc, infact I love um..I just dont think it compares to dmg like a Sam can.... I know all too well the "lol" job stigma... I have 85 pup..

If you're going to compare DNC to SAM, do it with equal gear:



vs



OAT GKT

Under the right conditions. No damage bonus mobs like colibri that would favor the DNC. Both the DNC and SAM should be getting Haste Samba, it's a group effect, and DNC is also there to support the group, not just deal damage. So if the DNC parsing against a SAM, they should both be recieving Haste Samba for being in the same PT.

SAM will eat the DNC alive. Plus, they'll look alot cooler wearing their gear than that DNC will. :x In the end that alone is a win.

Wait wait wait, people actually believe DNC at its full potential can keep up with SAM at its full potential? lmfao a Dual wield Job keep up with a hasso job while haste samba is in the picture, whats this pre 2handed update Ridill WAR's playing DNC and still fighting the good fight? lol DNC roll in the game is to make 2 handed DDs attack faster with haste Samba, but its the only job that can do that, making it awesome and my <3 DD not so much

I'm not even sure if you stopped to read all of the math (right or wrong) that was posted in this topic. Not to bash but people like you is EXACTLY why there's a "loldnc" plague.

On another note, if nothing else, I appreciate the numbers you guys are posting. I know I personally probably won't outparse a sam but its nice to know what we're capable of.

....shouldn't the SAM be using polearm or something? It might be different now, but last I played polearm absolutely destroyed anything you exp on, in terms of polearm vs GKT parsing.

Also, if you're doing the solo parse thing, then no, SAM wouldn't get haste samba. I was to the understanding this was a one on one kinda thing. DNC only gets haste samba because it's a DNC ability. I am assuming the DNC doesn't have access to SAM abilities?

We could also wait till 90, when SAM could sub DNC and have a haste samba of its very own. :P

They will get haste samba but only a 5% one vs the 10%dnc gets with merits (and possibly more depending on new gear peices). I also wouldnt put it past them to gimp it down as sub job like how waltzs are.

Why are you WSing in TP gear on DNC? Pretty much the same for SAM too..

So if we're talking about actual damage... shouldn't you be doing WS sets... not TP sets?

I would understand the TP set if you were describing how fast a SAM can get TP and how fast a DNC can get tp in your description. However, you are talking about damage.

or remove it all together like nin's lvl 40 abilities

The maths is wrong, it IS mathematically impossible under pristine conditions for a dual wield job to keep up with a hasso job, especially when haste samba is in play w/ x2 March/Haste. Hasso is incredibly broken in high haste situations, dual wield is honestly gimped. If you honestly believe DNC can out parse SAM in the best of conditions, I don't know what to tell you...

Since you took such a condescending tone i will as well :P You are down right stupid if you believe any of what you actually typed here.

My DNC gains right at around 5 TP per hit WITH dual wield 4 and the DW items, first off. It's probably at around 4.9 but idc enough to figure it out exactly. That is where the 5 tp note came from.

2nd i gave sam a HUGE damage buff for the calculations. I've never seen a SAM use a GK and hit 200 per swing on the average at the end of the parse (Post level cap increase, dnc and sam likely both do more damage at 85 than at 75, i've barely pt'ed beyond the 75 cap because i find the game to be highly boring now). DNC easily pulls off the 60 a swing assuming the person is using pizza and knows how to play.

3rd, we get more than simply reverse flourish. First off, if the DNC goes /sam and gives up the 10% DA from /war to maximize overal DoT, they also get meditate. No Foot Rise is basically a 75 TP meditate. 3 minute cooldown, gives you 5 finishing moves, you hit the reverse flourish button and there you have it.

And to your 4th point... Dancer has up to 65% double attack. if the DNC swings 2x with dual wield w/o any double attacks, then you can get a rough estimate as to the average swings they get per attack phase by taking 2 * 1.65 (65% chance to double attack) = around 3.3 swings per attack round without an OAT weapon.

If you want to be more precise you take each swing individually since each hand gets a chance to double attack.
1 swing with a chance to DA * 1.65 (chance to DA) = 1.65 swings with that one hand. That means each hand can swing 1.65 times.

Add that together now?
1.65 + 1.65 = 3.3

Now if they had an OAT weapon with a 50% chance to swing twice...
1 x 1.5 = 1.5 swing chances before DA.
the double attack then adds 0.325 to the equation:
0.5 x .65 = 0.325
1.5 + 0.325 = 1.825

1.825 chance to swing twice with the offhand + the 1.65 chance with the main hand = 3.475 average swings per round of attacks.

Lets see your math, then. If mine is wrong.

45% dual wield will lower delay more than 10% haste gained from hasso will assuming the sam sits at about 70% haste already (25 gear, 15 spell, 20'ish songs, 10 haste samba). Hasso brings you up to 80% haste at that point, which does NOT beat out 45% DW + 70% haste of DNC in the same situation.

Yuna speaks the truth. Most dnc's gear WS's wrong. if you gear them correctly then 2k is a barrier that is very easily broken when you land those 8 hit dancing edges on anything weak to piercing nowdays with the recent update-buff DNC has gotten. You don't land them super commonly, but if you give me a moment i'll give you a percent chance.

Though my average WS still only sits at about 1550'ish, still better than the majority of SAM's out there. My WS gear isn't anywhere near pristine either. (Also note that i have not parsed my dancer at all since i got it to 80 and got dual wield 4, and a higher base DMG dagger for higher WS damage, so this average was back in the Greater Colibri merit days. 1-4 hour parties with the 1500'ish numbers being my usual average at the end with every ws being totalled up against one another)

Edit:
You have a 0.1466508321796875 (14.67%) chance of getting the 2 double attacks on the WS, then landing all 8 hits assuming you have 95% accuracy.

so 1 out of every 7 or so WS's will be an 8 hit WS that DNC lands every hit of.

If you're going to say anything about DNC is weak or bad it should be the fact that they feed more TP than most jobs. Luckily most of the new good dnc gear seems to have more subtle blow on it. I see SE giving us a new tier of subtle blow trait very soon as well. We got tier 3 back at level 65, hopefully by 90 we'll get at least tier 4. Maybe they'll add in 2 tiers, 1 between 65 and 90 and one at 90... or 99.

Not to be snooty or anything, but what's your WS set? Do you use Building Flourish, and do you have merits in Building Flourish? What conditions do you receive these numbers with, and what buffs if any (Minuets, Chaos Roll, Abyssea Cruor buffs/Atma)?

Idk how to make sets on here, sorry. But I'm DNC/WAR most of the time, with saber dance up full time and typically I leveled with a BRD and COR doing their standard buffs. Obviously the mob is dia'ed, as they always should be. I also use pizza as my food 99% of the time. If it was a colibri i'd use NQ over HQ since i'd have to go cook a 100 more after the pt lol

And i only use building flourish on a WS if i only have 2 finishing moves at the time. Otherwise I'd just reverse flourish after i WS'ed

that damage was outside of abyssea in a merit party, not lets make an entire party composed of "lets buff the dnc."

Yea, i've only done 1 abyssea exp pt ever. Was so boring IMO lol. The NM's are fun to fight, but I'd rather group with friends in the empty camps for exp/merits than in a boring alliance for 8 hours.

Abyssea is only good exp if you have a lot of time to invest in it. It doesn't start out good. I don't have that much time, i maybe get to login 1-2 hours a day on FFXI, which isnt enough time to get your exp per kill up that comparably high.

ok so im a tad slow...

(proving the fact that im really slow today)

and yeah and considering the amount of work you have to put elsewhere i dont find myself in abyssea exp all that often.

pulling away from the war for a bit...

when it comes to ws (lets say evisceration) for each piece of gear how much atk would you need to pull you from 1 dex.

poorly worded i know (im tired :Q_____)

i mean to say uhhhhhhhh

???atk = 1 dex for evisceration

Idk about evisceration, but for DE, even 1 attack or str beats 1 dex unless youre capped or close to it.

With evisceration you'd have to figure in the extra crit chance the dex adds, not merely the ws mod and the acc.
It's still a 5 (6 with DW, 8 with saber dance) hit WS though, so I don't see the dex being overly beneficial to raising the average ws damage compared to attack.

My evisceration averages never got close to my DE averages before. Evisceration has the potentially to (rarely, very rarely) get way higher damage than a DE, though. But the average is still usually lower.

yeah thats what has me confused a bit.

like comparing ragers (minus the accuracy) and aurore gaiters, i honestly have no idea which would be better.

Rager would definitely be better for both if you want to increase the average damage. Unless of course you're attack capped already. Depends on your buffs, food, the mobs debuffs (dia, box step, etc).

Anyways i gtg to work. Seeya~

I liked your old avatar more :(