Haste Is NOT Exponential...

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
users online
Forum » FFXI » General » Haste is NOT exponential...
Haste is NOT exponential...
First Page 2 3 4 ... 16 17 18
 Leviathan.Duvessa
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Veronika
Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:29:07
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Haste is not "Exponential".

Haste does have an Increasing return.

There is a difference, but they're often confused (Usually by people who want to seem smart by using fancy big words). Pretty much the More haste you have, the more you get out of adding more, up until the respective Magic, equipment and total caps. At least that's what I've been lead to believe.

Even if that wasn't true, I'm with Flion, it makes me hit ***faster. Nuff said.

Thats not an "increasing return" though. The rate of attack speed being changed at which each 1% added is not changing. It's always remaining the same. You're simply stacking that same 1% over and over again. The 1% value itself never changes, there's just more of them. lol
[+]
 Sylph.Akibakei
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Akiba
Posts: 590
By Sylph.Akibakei 2010-05-12 09:29:10
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Do I use Marine Boots with minimal Dex, Str, Vit and HP, or do I use something that will make me hit faster. Not that hard. Do the Ricky Bobby in FFXI:

I wanna go fast.
 Shiva.Flionheart
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:29:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Spency said:
1 2 / .4 = HASTE IS *** AWESOME!

 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:29:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Incorrect, Argettio.

Here is an example:
500 delay with 1% haste = 495 delay.
500 delay with 24% haste = 380 delay
500 delay with 25% haste = 375 delay.

Now:
500/60 = 8.3333 secs
496/60 = 8.2666 secs
380/60 = 6.3333 secs
375/60 = 6.25 secs

Now to disprove:
6.25 secs / 8.33 secs = 0.750 (which is 25% haste's multiplier)
6.3333 / 8.33 secs = 0.76 (24% haste)
8.2666 / 8.33 secs = .99 (1% haste)

The attack speed is a constant along with the haste returns.

You're using the wrong formula, so your numbers are incorrect. For % increase
1/(new haste/old haste).

1/(6.3333/8.33) = 31.5% increase in attack speed, not 24.
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2010-05-12 09:29:27
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Phoenix.Kojo
Forum Moderator
Offline
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: AnnaMolly
Posts: 12308
By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 09:29:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ok, so, as THF, lv 53 (DWII), with Corsair's Kukri (Dly 206) and Hornetneedle (Dly 150) and 10% Haste (Rapparee 4%, Swift Belt 4%, Bravo's Subligar 2% for TP gear) What is my actual combined delay, It doesn't seem to do much yet, But it's there for what it does do.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:30:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You guys are also wrong about haste samba. It is counted as haste, melee haste, not delay reduction. It stacks w/ haste for attack speed. It's JA haste, like hasso. It only effects melee swings, but it is haste.
[+]
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:31:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Thats not an "increasing return" though. The rate of attack speed being changed at which each 1% added is not changing. It's always remaining the same. You're simply stacking that same 1% over and over again. The 1% value itself never changes, there's just more of them. lol

You have no clue what you're talking about.
[+]
 Hades.Arkhelshar
Offline
Server: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 21
By Hades.Arkhelshar 2010-05-12 09:32:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It a calls for open mind really. We talk about haste here, not delay reduction.

Haste effect on reducing delay is linear, on that, on a numeric basis we agree.

But that is not what we care about. It's the speed gain that is to be noted.

In other game, where it's actually linear, 100% haste would mean that you hit twice a much only. And THAT is linear.

Reduction in delay increase the number of hits on an exponential way. Technically, a weapon with 99% reduction delay will hit 100 times more. (It's capped before that, but that's not the point here)

So when you refer to haste about actual delay reduction, ok it's linear, but people don't give a *** about these numbers.

Therefor we can agree on :

FFXI HASTE = Exponential
Delay reduction = Linear

When people speak with exponential haste, they speak about the actual effect of haste...The effect on # of hits.

While every haste % will always recude de same number of delay. It won't for the actual speed gain on melee attack speed.

Do a graph for haste versus actual speed gain, and you will see. But here is the basic.

Haste #Hits
1% x1.01
50% x2
75% x4
80% x5
90% x10
99% x100

The numbers might be linear, but the actual visual result is exponential.

Now this answer been beat for at least 1 whole year now, so learn the basic and get over it.


[+]
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:34:54
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Here, let's do it like this.

1000 delay w/ 10% haste vs 1000 delay w/ 20% haste

1000 x .9 = 900 delay.
1000 x .8 = 800 delay.

900/60 = 15 seconds for 1 attack
800/60 = 13.33 seconds for 1 attack.


We have 500 seconds

500/13.33 = 37.509 attacks
500/15 = 33.333 attacks

37.509/33.333 = 12.528% increase in number of attacks, but if we went with your model, you'd have a 10% increase in number of attacks.

Do you get it now?
[+]
 Phoenix.Kojo
Forum Moderator
Offline
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: AnnaMolly
Posts: 12308
By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 09:36:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
You guys are also wrong about haste samba. It is counted as haste, melee haste, not delay reduction. It stacks w/ haste for attack speed. It's JA haste, like hasso. It only effects melee swings, but it is haste.

It stacks because it's an effect on the mob being fought, not on a character, which, like herpes, is passed from DNC to to mob via stabbing, then from mob to PT member via stabbing. It effects individual hits, you miss and you are only as fast as everything except Haste Samba allows you to be.
 Lakshmi.Hypnotizd
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: hypnotizd
Posts: 1685
By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-05-12 09:37:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Thats not an "increasing return" though. The rate of attack speed being changed at which each 1% added is not changing. It's always remaining the same. You're simply stacking that same 1% over and over again. The 1% value itself never changes, there's just more of them. lol
Lakshmi.Hypnotizd said:
I don't think anyone has ever said its exponential. Haste is better the more you have until the cap.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:37:54
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Delay reduction = Linear
Delay reduction(and dual wield) is also exponential. It just is individual from haste.

If you took 50% delay reduction and compared its attack speed with 51% delay reduction, you'd get the same difference in attack speed as 50% haste and 51% haste.
[+]
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:39:55
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
You guys are also wrong about haste samba. It is counted as haste, melee haste, not delay reduction. It stacks w/ haste for attack speed. It's JA haste, like hasso. It only effects melee swings, but it is haste.

It stacks because it's an effect on the mob being fought, not on a character, which, like herpes, is passed from DNC to to mob via stabbing, then from mob to PT member via stabbing. It effects individual hits, you miss and you are only as fast as everything except Haste Samba allows you to be.
It still counts as haste when reducing your attack speed and on DW jobs, if you have good gear or are using proper food, this even only applies once in a blue moon, as you'd have to miss both attacks (and any double attacks or kick attacks, too) not to get the effect of samba.

w/ 95% hitrate, missing twice in a row .05 x .05 = 0.25% chance, yea, not often.
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:40:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Tigerwoods said:

We have 500 delay, 0% haste.

Add 1% haste

500 x .99 = 495 delay

1/(495/500) = 1.01% increase

So, now we have 79% delay and 80% delay
500 x .21 = 105
500 x .2 = 100

1/(100/105) = 5.00% increase

Proof that his math is wrong, yet again.

1% haste is right, 500 x .99 = 495

20% haste is wrong, 500 x .80 = 400, not 100

21% haste is wrong, 500 x .79 = 395, not 105

You said 79%/80% delay. Meaning 20%/21% haste.

Even then, where do you get the whole 1/(previous delay/new delay) formula? Is it to try to prove your point? Because thats not haste at all. Thats the change in haste percentage, not actual increase in haste effect at all. Having a lower denominator increase would have a higher total increase (1/3 > 1/4 > 1/5 in that case)

Add 1% haste, you lower delay by 1% of the total delay (thats delay of the weapon - whatever % you happen to have to subtract/add to the delay). Haste has a 1:1 ratio, not 1:1/change ratio that you assume it to be.
Tigerwoods said:
OP, let's say you have 5 dollars. You take 5 dollars away. now let's say you have 5,000,000 dollars. You take 5 dollars away.

In which scenario did you lose a higher % of money?

Delay works the same way, you have the same physical number taken away, but you have a larger % of your delay taken away, which is a higher % increase in attack speed.

Oh wait, you just admitted that your whole assumptions is based by change in effect, not the effect itself.

Lets put it this way.

GDP in USA increased by 5% in 2008. It went from 500 Billion to 525 Billion in 2008. It increased by 5% again in 2009. It went from 525 Billion to 551.25 Billion. You are saying that there is no increase or decrease in change, so there is no growth. I say that there is growth because it added another 26.25 Billion into the economy, instead of another 25 Billion. In case you are confused, do the math. I know you have a calculator, why don't you use it for once?
[+]
 Shiva.Flionheart
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:41:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This thread is going to go bad isn't it :(
[+]
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:41:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Explain why having 1/(new/old) has any bearing in this case.

Because I think you are playing with the numbers to try to prove your point.
[+]
 Leviathan.Duvessa
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Veronika
Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:44:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
hmmm, nvm, korp beat me to it, kinda lol.
[+]
 Hades.Arkhelshar
Offline
Server: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 21
By Hades.Arkhelshar 2010-05-12 09:44:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sorry to say Tiger, but all haste stack affect delay reduction linearly and making haste effect exponential. Some sort of haste affect melee only, yes. like Samba March and Hasso.

You will always get the same delay reduction for every 1% haste you add,

Delay reduction = linear
Haste gain from it = exponential.

Tested numberous time.

Wikied as well.

And Youtubed

 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:44:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Oh wait, you just admitted that your whole assumptions is based by change in effect, not the effect itself.

Well no ***, when I say x/y = z% increase, the % is there for a reason. It's a percentage. I suggest you look up the word.
Quote:
20% haste is wrong, 500 x .80 = 400, not 100

21% haste is wrong, 500 x .79 = 395, not 105

The math is right, I used the wrong word. Thanks for pointing that out though.

Replace "delay" with "haste"
Quote:
So, now we have 79% delayhaste and 80% delayhaste
500 x .21 = 105
500 x .2 = 100

Run your numbers again

The math is correct, most you have me on is a typo. Zomg. Pat yourself on the back.
[+]
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:45:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
If he admits that the change is exponential, he would be right.

But haste on itself is not exponential.
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:46:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Korpg said:
Explain why having 1/(new/old) has any bearing in this case.

Because I think you are playing with the numbers to try to prove your point.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2010-05-12 09:46:54
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Leviathan.Duvessa
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Veronika
Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:48:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Caitsith.Shiroi said:

Everyone who thinks haste is linear did you watch this video?

For real? Look at the video before you use it as an example lol. The video is set at a higher play speed than it was recorded as to make the video playlength shorter.

Want proof? Look at the animations of spells/songs.
 Sylph.Spency
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Spencyono
Posts: 6969
By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 09:48:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Flionheart said:
This thread is going to go bad isn't it :(

Unless we do something about it!
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:49:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Caitsith.Shiroi said:

Everyone who thinks haste is linear did you watch this video?
What does that prove anyway?
 Shiva.Flionheart
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:49:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Spency said:
Shiva.Flionheart said:
This thread is going to go bad isn't it :(

Unless we do something about it!

 
Offline
Posts:
By 2010-05-12 09:50:06
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Leviathan.Duvessa
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Veronika
Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:50:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Caitsith.Shiroi said:
Quote:
For real? Look at the video before you use it as an example lol. The video is set at a higher play speed than it was recorded as to make the video playlength shorter.

I think you are playing with a lot of lag

Haste doesn't change the animation speed of the songs and spells once they're casted. Video editing does. It's playing at a higher rate. Sorry... Try again.
 Asura.Korpg
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Korpg
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:51:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Caitsith.Shiroi said:
Quote:
For real? Look at the video before you use it as an example lol. The video is set at a higher play speed than it was recorded as to make the video playlength shorter.

I think you are playing with a lot of lag
I'm sorry, I didn't know that you can tell the difference between 1% haste by sight alone.
First Page 2 3 4 ... 16 17 18