The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 11:48:20
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Ehh the gifts for 400+ are really nice and the other categories are pretty decent so I can understand one utterly useless category. Hell anyone with a circle ability got screwed over pretty badly on some of their JPs, WAR made out pretty well in the end.
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 Fenrir.Camiie
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By Fenrir.Camiie 2015-06-09 11:55:12
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Asura.Failaras said: »
I skimmed over ranged, that is beyond silly.

And if we want max gifts we have to spend JPs on that $#!+. At least we could avoid Aggressive Aim...
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By Siren.Kyte 2015-06-09 12:07:44
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Asura.Fiv said: »
We should probably be complaining about that job point category and hope it gets changed like blue magic learning chance when the blue mages cried enough. I feel like i would if i had an official forum account, but i can't be bothered to make one. Also better chance that gets fixed then us actually getting great axe weaponskills fixed.

The two aren't in any way comparable. Blue magic learning was literally useless outside of the day after an occasional update. This is technically useful (and I use that word loosely) if you have a ranger in your party.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 14:41:23
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Whens the last time you were in a party with a RNG and WAR, same party, i haven't seen this since exping in Ru'Avitau or greater colibri at 75 cap.

Edit: Also i would add that although many jobs do get some pretty bad categories, how many of them literally do nothing for the job at all.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-09 15:16:12
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ehh the gifts for 400+ are really nice and the other categories are pretty decent so I can understand one utterly useless category. Hell anyone with a circle ability got screwed over pretty badly on some of their JPs, WAR made out pretty well in the end.
I really disagree now that I know Blood Rage is ranged. Most of the job points are adding attack to a job that honestly doesn't need it. The retal one is nice but retaliation doesn't work on a large amount of important mobs. Basically outside of some rare situations where you need attack/accuracy, the only JP that actually does anything is Restraint. Compare this to other DDs like Blu which has at least three very good Job Points with at least 5 being useful, or Sam which has 2 great ones and 3 or so good ones.

The gifts are also in my opinion pretty weak, overall most jobs have weak gifts but there are some jobs like Blu, Bst, Geo, and Blm that had absolutely game changing gifts.
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 15:26:43
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Technically the gifts are ok, 4% DA, 5% crit rate, 4% crit dmg, and 3% wsd. The fencer is nice except single wielding suffers similar flaws as great sword on WAR, terrible skillchain properties. Its hard to compare it to BLM gifts or BLM at all considering how much stronger magic is then melee right now.

I would just prefer it if the actually job point categories were less terrible. How about making that category give blood rage 10% of what the blood rage nerf took away years ago?


Edit: I should say, i mean mage gifts are pretty broken for some jobs, but just comparing WAR gifts to other DD jobs i can't be mad, but DA versus magic burst bonus is like apples to oranges.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2015-06-09 16:47:49
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Whens the last time you were in a party with a RNG and WAR, same party, i haven't seen this since exping in Ru'Avitau or greater colibri at 75 cap.

Edit: Also i would add that although many jobs do get some pretty bad categories, how many of them literally do nothing for the job at all.

I'm aware of that and I knew that was going to be your retort- but how many categories literally do nothing? That was the argument behind getting the BLU one changed and unfortunately WAR isn't going to be able to claim that.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 17:06:31
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Blue mage was only useless because good blue mages had learned all the spells already, but some people still made use of it before it was changed. Warriors is useless to good warriors because they dont use xbows or party with rangers, though im sure some bads may do these things, its still a lot more similar then your giving it credit for imo.


Edit: But even if you don't feel that way, its hard to argue it shouldn't be changed anyway.
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By Siren.Kyte 2015-06-09 17:15:26
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It really isn't. No one is going to spend 56 job points on a job they don't have all the spells for yet- and once you learn them all, it'll then proceed to do nothing at all. This is all excluding the fact that the learn rate isn't even that bad to begin with- when I have trouble learning spells, it's generally because the stupid monster just isn't using them.

The only people that made use of it before it was changed were people who upgraded it knowing it would be changed.

Also, the stupid Bloodrage thing probably affects Daken too and partying with a NIN is a little less outlandish, so there's that.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 17:24:52
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You have me there, its probably useful for NINs whenever you feel like pairing 2 obsolete DD jobs in 1 party. D:
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-09 17:42:54
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To be fair you don't need about half the spells Blu can get to actually play the job so I could possibly see a situation that the learning JT could have some conceivable use.

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Technically the gifts are ok, 4% DA, 5% crit rate, 4% crit dmg, and 3% wsd. The fencer is nice except single wielding suffers similar flaws as great sword on WAR, terrible skillchain properties. Its hard to compare it to BLM gifts or BLM at all considering how much stronger magic is then melee right now.
I agree they are ok, but compared to the ones I mentioned aren't even close. Blu 100 gift alone is probably better than all of those added together or at least close (What I can think of off the top of my head is it gives: 3% Crit, 3% DA 8 Acc 8 Atk off the Dual Wield and swapping to Bladeborn/Steelflash, 8 Store TP, 4% SC Damage, and probably some random other attack/accuracy bonuses).
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 19:54:55
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Technically the gifts are ok, 4% DA, 5% crit rate, 4% crit dmg, and 3% wsd. The fencer is nice except single wielding suffers similar flaws as great sword on WAR, terrible skillchain properties. Its hard to compare it to BLM gifts or BLM at all considering how much stronger magic is then melee right now.

I would just prefer it if the actually job point categories were less terrible. How about making that category give blood rage 10% of what the blood rage nerf took away years ago?


Edit: I should say, i mean mage gifts are pretty broken for some jobs, but just comparing WAR gifts to other DD jobs i can't be mad, but DA versus magic burst bonus is like apples to oranges.

I was comparing WAR to the other melee DD's. BLU is kinda in it's own category since it can reconfigure itself and the 100JP category is amazing for anyone who actually knows how to play the job. I'm currently capping the gifts on SAM and DRK since BLU / RDM and WAR are 550 and let me tell you this, I'd take WAR's JP and gifts over either DRK's or SAM's any day.

Mages only seem overpowered because our current strategy involves abusing the uncapped nature of mRatio with GEO's combined with NM's taking ridiculous SC + MB damage. A good COR is a godly DD now, as long as the target doesn't resist dark damage, same with RNG, though most of those are too bent out of shape with physical WS to realize they have a stupidly powerful light magic WS. I've seen 40K+ Leaden's making a 70K+ darkness on T3 behemoth, stupid stuff like that. But turn off Malaise and Acumen and suddenly that damage drops sharply. Imagine what would happen if we could buff melee ratio to 5.0 or higher, yeah that's the situation now with magic.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 20:17:59
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I primarily was just comparing gifts, in which case i'm not sure if i would prefer SAM or WAR, they would be the better of the options most likely though, with DRG being probably the worst among heavy DDs. If were talking the actual job point categories, its hard to imagine anyone getting anymore use out of anything then SAM is getting out of meditate and hasso, and the others are mildly useful as well. I agree WAR did get good gifts though, i just strongly disagree with one of the job point categories essentially being a support for other jobs buff, as if WAR is in such great shape it needs to help other jobs now too.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 21:35:02
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If were talking the actual job point categories, its hard to imagine anyone getting anymore use out of anything then SAM is getting out of meditate and hasso, and the others are mildly useful as well.

SAM has exactly two good categories, Hasso and Meditate, which just happen to be two of it's best abilities anyway. The rest are all very crappy and extremely situational, just like most of SAM's other JA's are. Their job specific gifts are a few points of STP and a few percentage points of SC bonus along with an insignificant boost to zanshin. The 550 JP is ... a slightly better third eye that will still be useless in situations where you need it the most. I was more excited about the accuracy bonus's then I was about anything else.

WAR on the other hand got pretty amazing gifts, some extra DA, extra crit rate, extra critical hit damage and more WSD, along with more fencer silliness. The crit rate, crit damage and WSD are all direct buffs to the WS you'd be SCing light with on GAXE while also providing a solid increase to melee DPS. The fencer upgrades are mostly for the Sword and Axe builds that seem to be get little love.

On that note, I recently go to screw around with cloudsplitter and the results were pretty amazing. Like all magic WS's, it sucks out the gate but is easily buff-able to stupid numbers. WAR can actually get quite a bit of MAB gear now which when combined with Fencer and CS's fTP scaling makes for some pretty solid numbers. Throw in a GEO with malaise and it gets really stupid really fast. It's not as big as WF, LS or TF but it's still a potent magic WS that can close light or darkness for those big a$$ MB's we like to use. SAM, DRK and DRG on the other hand are all shafted pretty hard lately. Melee damage, while being technically superior to magic damage, just requires too much support. It's far easier to buff magic damage into obscene numbers, at least until SE puts some kind of cap on mRatio.
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 22:05:18
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Well there reply to WAR buff is simply adding attack and double attack so when i see the gifts im predisposed to being unimpressed with the double attack. The fencer is a nice toy but as strong as the weaponskills are, and they can be really strong, the TP gain kills it for me, not to mention cloudsplitter is literally the only one with a tier 3 skillchain property so all the other weaponskills suffer from upheaval & resolution syndrome. I also find it hard to make use of fencer and cloudsplitter when you have to split buffs between physical and magic, something is probably taking a hit unless you have a lot of characters with you, it feels pretty poorly thought out or cleverly restraining, i haven't decided.

I'm fairly pleased with the crit rate and damage though, im just never happy about the current state of the job.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 22:25:32
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Well there reply to WAR buff is simply adding attack and double attack so when i see the gifts im predisposed to being unimpressed with the double attack. The fencer is a nice toy but as strong as the weaponskills are, and they can be really strong, the TP gain kills it for me, not to mention cloudsplitter is literally the only one with a tier 3 skillchain property so all the other weaponskills suffer from upheaval & resolution syndrome. I also find it hard to make use of fencer and cloudsplitter when you have to split buffs between physical and magic, something is probably taking a hit unless you have a lot of characters with you, it feels pretty poorly thought out or cleverly restraining, i haven't decided.

I'm fairly pleased with the crit rate and damage though, im just never happy about the current state of the job.

That's because your applying CS to situations where you expect melee to actually deal damage, that's the wrong situation. CS is for when your buffing magic damage and doing big SC's and MB's and the "race to 1000" isn't in effect anymore. Take all those DPS spreadsheets and throw them in a fire, they are no longer a valid simulator for fight conditions. Your getting tacticians roll, indi-accumen + geo-maliase and possibly focus / langor if there is a second GEO. The second COR roll might be wizards or more likely allies. You will be using CS to either open or close a darkness or double darkness for stupid damage, far more then you'd ever see with any physical WS. There will be a big MB happening on the order of 20~70K depending on the nature of the targets weakness.

Congrats your DPS no longer matters, it's all about getting a single big WS out that interacts in some sort of skillchain for a giant nuke going off. Of course if your in a fight that primarily centers around dealing lots of physical damage then it's a different story but those have become few and far between. Witnessing 40K+ magic WS's just totally smash's anything a melee WS could do.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 22:48:39
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That seems like a waste of a party slot, you would obviously be better served having other jobs do your skillchain, including the COR in your proposed setup closing with leaden. As you pointed out though the WS and SC damage is miniscule compared to the magic bursts about to come in so at some point why not just bring a SCH to make the skillchain (and burst), and stick that COR and WAR in your setup on BLM, GEO, or SCH as well. Add 4 more magic bursts to your skillchain versus a 40k cloudsplitter and 70k darkness or whatever.
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-09 23:08:38
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Mages only seem overpowered because our current strategy involves abusing the uncapped nature of mRatio with GEO's combined with NM's taking ridiculous SC + MB damage. A good COR is a godly DD now, as long as the target doesn't resist dark damage, same with RNG, though most of those are too bent out of shape with physical WS to realize they have a stupidly powerful light magic WS. I've seen 40K+ Leaden's making a 70K+ darkness on T3 behemoth, stupid stuff like that. But turn off Malaise and Acumen and suddenly that damage drops sharply. Imagine what would happen if we could buff melee ratio to 5.0 or higher, yeah that's the situation now with magic.

While I agree that is one way to do it, the Mage gifts are still amazing without abusing anything. For instance when I do Yorcia I never have Malaise or Acumen but put out some serious numbers with T5 nukes on Geo compared to T4s. I don't know by how much but my DPS went up quite a bit with that gift.

Quote:
SAM has exactly two good categories, Hasso and Meditate, which just happen to be two of it's best abilities anyway. The rest are all very crappy and extremely situational, just like most of SAM's other JA's are. Their job specific gifts are a few points of STP and a few percentage points of SC bonus along with an insignificant boost to zanshin. The 550 JP is ... a slightly better third eye that will still be useless in situations where you need it the most. I was more excited about the accuracy bonus's then I was about anything else.

I would argue that Hasso/Meditate are in the "very good" category, but Meikyo and Yaes are pretty awesome, Konzen and Haga can be situationally good. They are certainly better than "2 more accuracy under MS" or "1 more attack on DA". As far as the gifts go, I'm not entirely sure on the wording but the 100 gift seems to be a straight 5% Zanhasso chance which is basically 5% DA + some amount of TP bonus. The SC bonus gifts are pretty awesome, the STP gifts are great for Koga users, the only Sam gift that sucks is the 550.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 23:11:04
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That seems like a waste of a party slot, you would obviously be better served having other jobs do your skillchain, including the COR in your proposed setup closing with leaden. As you pointed out though the WS and SC damage is miniscule compared to the magic bursts about to come in so at some point why not just bring a SCH to make the skillchain (and burst), and stick that COR and WAR in your setup on BLM, GEO, or SCH as well. Add 4 more magic bursts to your skillchain versus a 40k cloudsplitter and 70k darkness or whatever.

The SC is a major part of the damage and thus requires a strong magic based closer, it's your melee damage or melee WS that is insignificant. As for the why, why not? I'm always looking for interesting ways to use whatever jobs are at hand, it keeps the game from getting boring and me from becoming a bitter disillusioned player. It's also a lot more fun then sitting in town with an "spreedsheet optimum" build doing absolutely nothing and then being asked to change to a thrown together "Job X" to do something with your friends. The days of "optimum build or GTFO" are gone and have been gone for over a year. There isn't the population left to act that way anymore and forcing people to always come as a job that dislike playing will just burn them out.
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 23:20:46
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I get its a major part of the damage, however if you have 2-3 people dedicated to doing what, an extra 150-200k damage per skillchain when those 2-3 people could be on 3 nuking jobs pumping out 5-6 additional magic bursts, its not even close to the same damage, basically your inviting a WAR to cloudsplitter just to pat them on the back.

You can't argue its all about a single big magic weaponskill with magic debuffs, the skillchain and the magic bursts then say dps optimization no longer matters, just lead with "because i do what i want".

Mind you, your the one that brought up DPS spreadsheets and optimization, all i said was the only weaponskill with a t3 property is cloudsplitter which means the others suffer from the same thing that ails reso and upheaval, which was basically me saying skillchains is a major source of damage and its not all about a macbain spamming resolution.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 23:23:36
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I would argue that Hasso/Meditate are in the "very good" category, but Meikyo and Yaes are pretty awesome, Konzen and Haga can be situationally good. They are certainly better than "2 more accuracy under MS" or "1 more attack on DA". As far as the gifts go, I'm not entirely sure on the wording but the 100 gift seems to be a straight 5% Zanhasso chance which is basically 5% DA + some amount of TP bonus. The SC bonus gifts are pretty awesome, the STP gifts are great for Koga users, the only Sam gift that sucks is the 550.

Ya might wanna look over those numbers. The STP is +4 total and the +SC damage is equally as small, if they were bigger it might be important or if SAM had an abusable magic based WS for closing Light / Dark. As of now you can forget they exist. I believe the Zanshin one is something like +2% zanhasso rate but I'll need to recheck it later, it's really unnoticeable. Meikyo is useless, don't ever use it. The problem with Meik is that you get 0 TP from WS's and from melee swings, so once that 3000TP pool is gone your sitting there waiting for it to wear off so you can continue. Your almost always better off not using it and just WSing on your own as SAM now has more then enough sTP to get TP nearly as fast as they can use it. The other SP is kinda useful, sometimes it works amazing, other times it just prolongs your death for 30s or the NM just hits you with Fire VI and calls it a day. Kozen and Ham would be more useful if SAM had a potent magic based WS to close the SC with because right now a 5~8K closing WS is utterly laughable. The job has been relegated to a SC opener for someone bigger, a job that's better done with a THF anyway. SAM's are really only useful in places like Yorcia where they have five people supporting them and the NM's don't have particularly high stats or in T4/T5 Vagery where they serve only as SC makers doing T1's to proc blue so that the nukers can do 10x more total damage then the SAM can dream of.

Hopefully we'll see some new content or updates that don't exclusively revolve around overpowered NM's and us doing SC + MB. The funny thing is I swear I remember a bunch of people constantly complaining for SE to "bring back" skillchains and magic bursts as though it would "save" FFXI somehow.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 23:33:18
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You can't argue its all about a single big magic weaponskill with magic debuffs, the skillchain and the magic bursts then say dps optimization no longer matters, just lead with "because i do what i want".

Actually it is...

Seriously it is. I run lots of parses and the SC usually ends up being the #1 damage and it takes two not three (where the f*ck did you get three?). The first guy just opens, the second does the buffed OP magic WS, big SC ensues, nukes go off. The nukes aren't nearly big enough to make up for that kind of SC damage, usually 10~20K but if the BLMs have TP from the COR then they can use their JA to get a bigger one off. Most NM's aren't like T4/T5 vagery that take something like 2~3x magic burst damage.

Now stop trying to argue against a tactic you don't understand or use. I know WAR isn't he best opener or closer, but it can function as such, especially with that particular build. And in the days when WAR gets ignored because so many of you are focused on "ME SPAM UKKO"S!! RAWR!, ME HUNGAR!" it's nice to have an alternative build that works with current strategies. That's what I always loved about WAR, its a very versatile job that can be played in many different ways and never gets boring.
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-09 23:53:51
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Fiv said: »
Well there reply to WAR buff is simply adding attack and double attack so when i see the gifts im predisposed to being unimpressed with the double attack. The fencer is a nice toy but as strong as the weaponskills are, and they can be really strong, the TP gain kills it for me, not to mention cloudsplitter is literally the only one with a tier 3 skillchain property so all the other weaponskills suffer from upheaval & resolution syndrome. I also find it hard to make use of fencer and cloudsplitter when you have to split buffs between physical and magic, something is probably taking a hit unless you have a lot of characters with you, it feels pretty poorly thought out or cleverly restraining, i haven't decided.

I'm fairly pleased with the crit rate and damage though, im just never happy about the current state of the job.

That's because your applying CS to situations where you expect melee to actually deal damage, that's the wrong situation. CS is for when your buffing magic damage and doing big SC's and MB's and the "race to 1000" isn't in effect anymore. Take all those DPS spreadsheets and throw them in a fire, they are no longer a valid simulator for fight conditions. Your getting tacticians roll, indi-accumen + geo-maliase and possibly focus / langor if there is a second GEO. The second COR roll might be wizards or more likely allies. You will be using CS to either open or close a darkness or double darkness for stupid damage, far more then you'd ever see with any physical WS. There will be a big MB happening on the order of 20~70K depending on the nature of the targets weakness.

Congrats your DPS no longer matters, it's all about getting a single big WS out that interacts in some sort of skillchain for a giant nuke going off. Of course if your in a fight that primarily centers around dealing lots of physical damage then it's a different story but those have become few and far between. Witnessing 40K+ magic WS's just totally smash's anything a melee WS could do.

Your the one that provided the estimated magic burst damage, and theres a lot of escha mobs where 60k magic bursts are still pretty normal.

Don't presume i don't understand how the closing weaponskill effects skillchain damage or how elemental weaponskills can be broken either, even prior to the magic burst update we've been making use of this, its not new. It is however unlikely its going to beat 2 more people magic bursting unless the monster doesn't have a true elemental weakness or something, which is possible, but thats not how this topic was brought up, it is however just bonus damage, but if your going out of your way for that damage then call it what it is, just for fun, not because its optimized, and stop trying to argue it.

It also still stands that in your proposed setup with a WAR and 2 CORs, you could still have the WAR and COR on nuking jobs, and the one guy still on COR can close a skillchain with leaden still, for likely more damage.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-09 23:58:34
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It also still stands that in your proposed setup with a WAR and 2 CORs, you could still have the WAR and COR on nuking jobs, and the one guy still on COR can close a skillchain with leaden still, for likely more damage.

That's not how that works but now your just deliberately strawmaning me. This is the WAR forum where we discuss WAR's and various builds involving WAR, if your not into that then kindly step away and go talk about not-WAR inside the non-WAR forums.
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By Asura.Fiv 2015-06-10 00:07:13
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Thats not how what works? The COR doesn't have leaden or isn't getting acumen all of a sudden because the WAR is gone?

I'm pretty into sitting here complaining why WAR, and great axe primarily needs buffs, whos to say i should go elsewhere? While i'm here ill provide some pretty sound advice if anyone asks or argue the finer points of skillchains and using WAR but don't try and tell me to go away when you contradict yourself out of an argument.

Edit: I suppose i assumed 2 CORs when you just meant 2 COR rolls, however my point still stands in terms of the WAR closing versus the COR, the WAR could be on a different job. I don't say this because i dislike WAR, its oddly enough my favorite job, but don't believe cloudsplitter/darkness is more effective then magic bursting damage especially when you can get the skillchain from somewhere else. If its fun for you go for it, but i wouldn't pawn it off as though its going to win the parse unless your nukers are not actually bursting for 20~70k as originally said.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-10 00:45:14
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Ya might wanna look over those numbers. The STP is +4 total and the +SC damage is equally as small, if they were bigger it might be important or if SAM had an abusable magic based WS for closing Light / Dark. As of now you can forget they exist. I believe the Zanshin one is something like +2% zanhasso rate but I'll need to recheck it later, it's really unnoticeable. Meikyo is useless, don't ever use it. The problem with Meik is that you get 0 TP from WS's and from melee swings, so once that 3000TP pool is gone your sitting there waiting for it to wear off so you can continue. Your almost always better off not using it and just WSing on your own as SAM now has more then enough sTP to get TP nearly as fast as they can use it. The other SP is kinda useful, sometimes it works amazing, other times it just prolongs your death for 30s or the NM just hits you with Fire VI and calls it a day. Kozen and Ham would be more useful if SAM had a potent magic based WS to close the SC with because right now a 5~8K closing WS is utterly laughable. The job has been relegated to a SC opener for someone bigger, a job that's better done with a THF anyway. SAM's are really only useful in places like Yorcia where they have five people supporting them and the NM's don't have particularly high stats or in T4/T5 Vagery where they serve only as SC makers doing T1's to proc blue so that the nukers can do 10x more total damage then the SAM can dream of.

4% SC bonus is pretty large when you consider how high up in damage SCs can get now. Same reason the Meikyo bonus is good, 20% extra SC damage on a free 4 step is pretty bonkers. Yaeg when used properly is absolutely massive as well, and a +300 TP bonus ontop of that is a big deal. Really both the 1h Job Points are great, especially compared to most jobs getting an extra 1-3 attack or accuracy during theirs.

The Zanshin gift says that it increases your Zanshin rate by 5%, even when you hit, which makes me believe it is a straight 5% Zanhasso instead of 5% Zanshin which would equal out to about 2% Zanhasso.

Personally I still do events that use melees as their main source of damage so I think the jobs are great. When you add up all the JPs you can make some seriously potent SCs on Sam. Also you don't wait for Meikyo to wear off, you click it off, it is worth using.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-10 01:06:09
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The Zanshin gift says that it increases your Zanshin rate by 5%, even when you hit, which makes me believe it is a straight 5% Zanhasso instead of 5% Zanshin which would equal out to about 2% Zanhasso.

Umm ... zanhasso is 25% of zanshin rate period. If you have Zanshin +5% then it's +1.25 to the DA chance. With hasso up Zanshin can proc even on a regular swing, regardless of whether it hits or miss's. I'll see if I can find some testing but I highly doubt it's +5% proc rate of Zanshin under Hasso on a hit, they would of just made it +20% Zanshin and called it a day.

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4% SC bonus is pretty large when you consider how high up in damage SCs can get now

If you believed that then you'd be going /DNC instead of /SAM on your WAR. /DNC gets Skillchain Bonus I at 45 for +8% SC damage, SAM naturally has Skillchain damage II for +12% while DNC gets 23% and BLU 16~20^%. SAM's gifts just give it another tier basically and in the big scheme of things it's just not a big deal.

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Same reason the Meikyo bonus is good, 20% extra SC damage on a free 4 step is pretty bonkers

There is no free four step unless you were slowed and unable to generate that TP naturally. SAM gets so much TP and swings so often now that you can chain WS's infinitely, assuming one doesn't miss and the 5/6 Ws limit doesn't hit you. You'll actually be getting TP faster then you can use it and will often WS at 1500 TP to continue the multi-step SC. MS doesn't really let you do anything you couldn't already do. And lets be honest here, Yaeg is generally worthless as by the time you use it the fights already going down hill and out of control. The only use I've seen for the second SP is if the boss is at really low health and suddenly something bad happens, like the healer DCing, or people getting splated, you pop it then hope you have meditate up and finish the fight before it wears and you die. It's the ultimate "oh f*ck" hero maneuver.

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Personally I still do events that use melees as their main source of damage so I think the jobs are great.

Whatever works for you and the group you do events with. I merely highlighted a potential use for WAR's in an ever increasingly common situation, the exploitation of uncapped mRatio and the inability of magic WS's to miss to form monster SC's on targets vulnerable to SC's. It's an unfortunate situation for melee jobs but I do try to find entertaining ways to win and get loots.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-10 01:26:15
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Umm ... zanhasso is 25% of zanshin rate period. If you have Zanshin +5% then it's +1.25 to the DA chance. With hasso up Zanshin can proc even on a regular swing, regardless of whether it hits or miss's. I'll see if I can find some testing but I highly doubt it's +5% proc rate of Zanshin under Hasso on a hit, they would of just made it +20% Zanshin and called it a day.

I understand how Zanhasso works, however the specific wording of the gift says that it is 5% Zanshin rate even if you hit.

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If you believed that then you'd be going /DNC instead of /SAM on your WAR. /DNC gets Skillchain Bonus I at 45 for +8% SC damage, SAM naturally has Skillchain damage II for +12% while DNC gets 23% and BLU 16~20^%. SAM's gifts just give it another tier basically and in the big scheme of things it's just not a big deal.

I would also have to believe that SC bonus was better than all the things /sam gives Warrior, that is a stupid argument. Also SC damage is less important for War because of their abyssmal SC ability and that they don't do 4-6 steps like Sam does.

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There is no free four step unless you were slowed and unable to generate that TP naturally. SAM gets so much TP and swings so often now that you can chain WS's infinitely, assuming one doesn't miss and the 5/6 Ws limit doesn't hit you. You'll actually be getting TP faster then you can use it and will often WS at 1500 TP to continue the multi-step SC. MS doesn't really let you do anything you couldn't already do. And lets be honest here, Yaeg is generally worthless as by the time you use it the fights already going down hill and out of control. The only use I've seen for the second SP is if the boss is at really low health and suddenly something bad happens, like the healer DCing, or people getting splated, you pop it then hope you have meditate up and finish the fight before it wears and you die. It's the ultimate "oh f*ck" hero maneuver.
Obviously Sam generates TP fast enough to SC without Meikyo but saying Meikyo is useless because of that is just wrong. Not only is Meikyo giving you faster WSes, albeit not by much, but it also gives you significantly stronger WSes because Meikyo counts current TP when you WS (So your first WS will be a 3000 TP WS for 750 TP) and then adds a 20% SC damage bonus ontop of that from job points.

Yaeg is so far from worthless that I find this laughable. Yaeg is not only a defensive ability, it is an insanely powerful WSD boost (60% I believe), along with a TP bonus. It's a great steroid for a multitude of fights.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-10 01:39:12
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I would also have to believe that SC bonus was better than all the things /sam gives Warrior, that is a stupid argument. Also SC damage is less important for War because of their abyssmal SC ability and that they don't do 4-6 steps like Sam does.

Umm .. how can you say this? WAR easily does a multi-step SC, especially if it has a mythic GAXE.

King's Justice -> Steel Cycle = Distortion -> Upheaval = Fusion -> Ukko's Fury = Light -> Ukko's Fury = Double Light.

I've actually done a Yorcia before that involved a Mythic WAR I know being the only DD and being supported the exact same way a SAM would. I was there on RDM for Inun, Haste II and the 550JP enfeebles (which are wtf broken btw). He just kept doing that five step and blow up everything in the zone, including the megaboss. That run was a melee focused run without the big MB's though I did try to slip some in based on watching his WS's. As a non-mythic WAR I was able to do this SC, only requirement was I had march's and haste, though misers roll makes this piss easy to pull off. Anyhow my point, which still stands, is that 4% is laughably small.

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Yaeg is so far from worthless that I find this laughable. Yaeg is not only a defensive ability, it is an insanely powerful WSD boost (60% I believe), along with a TP bonus. It's a great steroid for a multitude of fights.

Umm no.

The WSD boost depends on the number of special moves you've evaded, it's not a flat +60% from start to finish. It's MUCH MUCH weaker then that because you should be firing off WS's whenever you have TP and not sitting on 3000TP waiting to WS near the end. You get a very small WSD and TP Bonus for any situation you'd actually use it in since very few NM's use more then one TP move every 6~11 seconds and you should be getting TP faster then that. It's like restraint except for number of special moves dodged vs number of hits landed.

Yaeg is a "ohh ***I need to not get hit with any of these sh!tty TP moves for the next 30~45 seconds while we get things under control or I finish killing this thing". It's potency is instantly negated the moment the big bad guy fires off any kind of big magic. It doesn't do anything substantial to your damage output.

It really seems like your deliberately downplaying the strengths of WAR while trying to over inflate the strengths of SAM in an attempt to justify wanting a WAR buff. This is dishonest, there is no need for it as WAR does objectively need a buff via GAXE and GSWD WS's. SAM's already a strong job and there is no need to over inflate it in an attempt to make WAR look like an underdog. SAM's gifts and JPs kinda suck but the job is so powerful that it shines (in melee SC friendly situations) regardless. WAR's gifts and JP's are good but not good enough to overcome the inherent handicap that is GAXE and GSWD WS's.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-10 01:50:33
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Umm .. how can you say this? WAR easily does a multi-step SC, especially if it has a mythic GAXE.

King's Justice -> Steel Cycle = Distortion -> Upheaval = Fusion -> Ukko's Fury = Light -> Ukko's Fury = Double Light.

It's not bad, but it's not as good as Sams. Especially if you don't have a Conq, KJ and Cyclone are going to be very weak and the resulting SC is going to be even weaker because Gaxe WSs are in general weak. 4% SC damage is better the stronger the SC is which is based on WS damage.

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The WSD boost depends on the number of special moves you've evaded, it's not a flat +60% from start to finish. It's MUCH MUCH weaker then that because you should be firing off WS's whenever you have TP and not sitting on 3000TP waiting to WS near the end. You get a very small WSD and TP Bonus for any situation you'd actually use it in since very few NM's use more then one TP move every 6~11 seconds and you should be getting TP faster then that.
The WSD is 20% per move evaded, most bosses in the current game have their normal attacks classified as TP moves, you can EASILY full stack Yaes in less than 10 seconds. Honestly I'm not even sure you've used this ability, it is a noticeable and large damage increase in tons of fights.

All I'm doing is saying Sam JPs are better than Wars, which they are by a large margin. Their gifts are pretty close.
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