The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-10 02:35:33
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The WSD is 20% per move evaded, most bosses in the current game have their normal attacks classified as TP moves, you can EASILY full stack Yaes in less than 10 seconds. Honestly I'm not even sure you've used this ability, it is a noticeable and large damage increase in tons of fights.

Most NM's, the kind your talking about, don't attack that fast. You can't full stack unless you sit there and hold TP. The typical attack pattern is Attack -> TP Move -> Attack -> Spell -> Attack -> TP Move -> Repeat. Most have a 240 delay attack round, so once per four seconds, unless they have Slow on. Things like DA / TA and H2H can alter this but those usually belong to the class of NM's that don't have regular attacks classified as TP moves. It's all in how the AI scripts need to be written server side.

I can say all this because I've used Yaeg before, many times in fact, and it doesn't produce nearly as big a jump as your claiming. You gotta be playing very badly for that to happen, three TP moves is a long a$$ time to be holding TP, even on mobs where regular attacks count. If it was a job like WAR, DRK or DRG then maybe, but SAM gets TP once every 2~5 seconds which is fast enough to WS two to three times per TP move done. The bonus gets diluted down. The biggest benefit is that you don't get hit with paralyze, amnesia, slow, flash, encumbrance, stun or other sh!tty TP moves that can shut you down. It lets the SAM do a hail mary to finish off a fight when something bad happens.

Quote:
All I'm doing is saying Sam JPs are better than Wars, which they are by a large margin

And I'm telling you they aren't, most are useless with a handful of useful ones. WAR's all contribute something useful, well except Blood Rage. Even defender, which is usually something laughed at, is now useful for Conq owners since SE updated it. They all raise an important stat, Aggressor gets more accuracy, Berserk and Warcry get more attack, Retaliation happens more often, Restraint gives more damage on average, and Double attacks, which WAR gets a metric sh!t ton of, are slightly stronger. Brazen gets more attack, and Mighty Strikes gets more accuracy. In fights where those might be useful, attack and accuracy are a very welcome item, especially if your being forced to TP in a high acc set. Only Blood Rage is useless and I really do hope that SE changes that one, but in all honestly I wouldn't expect it. Now compare that one to how half of SAM's are as useless as Blood Rage with a few that are good. It just happens that SAM is a powerful job regardless of how shitty it's JP and gifts are.

Quote:
It's not bad, but it's not as good as Sams.

Actually it's better then SAM's. Kasha, Rana and Shoha are rather weak WS's in general. Even Fudo is mediocre, it's just that SAM gets so much TP they can channel a metric sh!t ton of them at their target. It's raw quantity over quality.

Shoha is 85% STR (5/5) 2.578 fTP with an attack bonus on the first hit.
Rana is 3.0 fTP with 50% STR.
Kasha is 1.84 fTP, 75% STR and 65% attack bonus.
Fudo is 4.25 fTP and 80% STR

Kings is 3.0 fTP 50% STR (7.0 at 3000TP for activating AM3)
Steel Cyclone is 1.75 fTP, 60% STR / VIT and 50% attack bonus
Upheaval is 4.6 fTP 85% VIT (5/5)
Ukko's is 3.0 fTP, 80% STR and crits

You actually don't need to start with Kings for WAR's five hit, you need to start with a Fragmentation WS which either Ukko's or Kings could do. Since your a Conq WAR you would be wanting to initiate your AM3 on the first WS and thus Kings would be better both because it scales to 3000TP better then Ukko's but also because it starts your AM3 which can proc on the rest. SAM on the other hand needs to start with Rana, which doesn't get any real benefit for being at 3000TP. You should try this with enhanced Warcry up, just to witness some of the silliness.

The only thing that makes WAR multi-step weaker is that there is no Gravitation property WS to start with and thus it's limited to a five step, and WAR doesn't get any SC bonus traits so the individual SC's aren't magnified as much. Great Axe WS's are stronger then Great Katana WS's, GKT actually kinda sucks on a per-WS basis. If tomorrow SE gave WAR an A+ in GKT and access to all the GKT WS's along with non-RME GKT's, you would be greatly disappointed in their damage output. They only shine because of their flexible SC properties and SAM's ability to vomit them in mass combined with Overwhelm.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-06-10 06:07:30
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Did anyone prove blood rage wasn't just a typo?

This is how SE refers to ranged attacks in the ranger JPs:
Code
遠隔攻撃

(Google translates it as "remote attack")

Those symbols don't show up in the WAR Blood Rage JP description. It's a typo in one of the two languages, and I think it's a pretty safe bet that it's english.


PS. If you guys want to check for yourselves, windower/res/job_points.lua has the job point descriptions in both languages.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-10 06:25:09
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Byrth I f*cking hope it's a typo and just SE trying to say it raise's both or something. Would make it actually useful for a change.
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-06-10 06:47:26
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Couldn't you just ask for clarification on the OF?

EDIT: Well those who aren't banned.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-06-10 08:59:22
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Slycer confirms that there's no mention of "Ranged" in the JP text. This is probably just a localization issue.

I don't have an active account and am banned from the OF anyway, but someone else could post this as an issue in the Localization subforum. It is technically a localization problem, and they typically reply with more information than anywhere else.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-10 09:59:16
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Pardon my absolute laziness on a backread, but if I may clarify...best non-REM Great Axe these days:

Devivifier? Well-augmented Svarga?
 Asura.Vafruvant
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2015-06-10 16:40:15
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Slycer confirms that there's no mention of "Ranged" in the JP text. This is probably just a localization issue.

I don't have an active account and am banned from the OF anyway, but someone else could post this as an issue in the Localization subforum. It is technically a localization problem, and they typically reply with more information than anywhere else.
Well, directly comparing Blood Rage to Camouflage, (as they have the same English description) here's the difference in Google's translation:

Blood Rage: In Blood Rage , I will up the critical rate . +1 A critical factor in the ability value of 1 .
Camouflage: In camouflage , I will up the critical rate of remote attack . +1 A critical factor in the ability value of 1 .

Looks like someone got lazy and just hit copy/paste.
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By Tylaar 2015-06-11 03:56:13
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This would be awesome news... but in the meantime, I'm still finding it hard to commit JP to anything that offers ranged boost for WAR :P
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By Asura.Darvamos 2015-06-11 04:13:54
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I was going to post this on the official forum like Byrth suggested but Tidis already did for us. Thanks Tidis.

Tidis' Post on the official Forum
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-06-11 04:30:42
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Tylaar said: »
This would be awesome news... but in the meantime, I'm still finding it hard to commit JP to anything that offers ranged boost for WAR :P
Tbf if you want all the job gifts you'd have to do it eventually as, if you flat out refused to stick job points in it you'd miss out on 23% capacity point bonus and more substantially, 3% WSD.
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-06-12 02:33:54
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Good day, Tidis,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

You are correct that the Japanese doesn't specify ranged attacks. I've adjusted the help text and it should be displaying correctly in the June version update.

Thank you again for the report!

Unelonborro
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-12 03:19:44
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YAY!!! Looks like BR JP isn't worthless after all, it's actually quite nice.
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By Lakshmi.Kyosukerob 2015-06-16 10:31:04
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Had I known I'd have upgraded it before so many others. As it stands I am in the middle of working on Defender 10/10 with Blood Rage set to be last to cap.

Regarding DA attack gift... Let's keep in mind it surely varies in value by weapon. Having Conq will make it far less potent a buff than without Conq. According to the OAT page on BG multi-attack procs are determined by QA > TA > OA3 > DA > OA2, with OAX being "occasionally attacks # times." Now if we math it out using 1000 attack rounds as a baseline for riding your am3 (let's use a big number for minimal rounding), we can determine the number of extra swings that gain an attack bonus. No arguing about "omg i don't have this piece, that piece, etc." Not everyone has all clears, all Skirm gear (very accessible though, get on it), etc. You can substitute your numbers in for calculations to find how it helps you. Let's do for those without Conq first:
Windbuffet +1
12% trait, 5% merit, 18% in gear, Gift 125 (2%)

1000*.02=20 QA procs
1000-20=980 (attack rounds that can proc other things)
980*.02=19 TA procs
980-19=961 (remaining attack rounds to proc DA)
961*.37=355 DA procs

QA earns 3 extra swings, TA earns 2 extra swings, and DA earns a single extra swing. This leaves us with...

60 extra swings from QA
38 extra swings from TA
355 extra swings from DA.
In total we have 1000+60+38+355=1453 total attacks, 355 of which get +10 attack. Therefore 24.43% of our attacks get an attack bonus of 10 when maxed out. Nice.

Now for those of us with Conq:
1000*.02=20 QA > 60 extra swings
980*.02=19 TA > 38 extra swings
961*.2=192 OA3 > 384 extra swings
769*.37=284 DA > 284 extra swings
485*.4=194 OA2 > 194 extra swings

Total swings are 1960. Wow. Extra hits from DA comprise 14.49% of our melee swings, so the attack bonus is applied to that % of melee attacks. Obviously a higher percent due to am3 being impossible to fulltime, not all number crunching is 100% reliable. The more optimal your set (see: 4hit w/ conq on page 1) the less DA you will be seeing from gear and the less the attack bonus will help. But the gifts up to 550 are quite nice. Also nonConq owners see a larger return depending on sets. Not sure the optimal set or if a 4hit works best for them (probably does but unsure, never got spreadsheets for certain jobs to work...likely due to having OpenOffice instead of something better).

And of course AM3 isn't going to last for 1000 swings, I just used a big number so %s would involve minimal rounding and numbers would be more accurate. Final %s are key here. Frankly even without Conq I'd still have chosen other categories first but this is still a pretty good one.
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By Kirakishou 2015-06-27 17:30:55
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Recently decided to play my War again, what situations would Trux/Brutal be better than the Steel/blade and TPbonus Moonshade/Brutal sets? Besides the obvious trash mobs.
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2015-06-27 17:35:50
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Kirakishou said: »
Recently decided to play my War again, what situations would Trux/Brutal be better than the Steel/blade and TPbonus Moonshade/Brutal sets? Besides the obvious trash mobs.

Tripudio/Brutal: If you need STP
Trux/Brutal: If you don't need ACC or STP
Steel/Blade: Need some ACC
Zennaroi/Brutal: Need more ACC
Zennori/Steel: Need MAX ACC
Moonshade/Brutal: should be WS only (TP bonus)
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-27 19:18:42
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Total swings are 1960. Wow. Extra hits from DA comprise 14.49% of our melee swings, so the attack bonus is applied to that % of melee attacks. Obviously a higher percent due to am3 being impossible to fulltime, not all number crunching is 100% reliable. The more optimal your set (see: 4hit w/ conq on page 1) the less DA you will be seeing from gear and the less the attack bonus will help. But the gifts up to 550 are quite nice. Also nonConq owners see a larger return depending on sets. Not sure the optimal set or if a 4hit works best for them (probably does but unsure, never got spreadsheets for certain jobs to work...likely due to having OpenOffice instead of something better).
It isn't, in fact it's just barely better for Conq last I checked (pre Escha) by something like 10-20 DPS. You're giving up like 4 slots entirely for the STP which hurts it. The Conq set uses less than 10% DA while the 5 hit uses nearly 50%, this is especially a big deal for Devivifier. The new STP belt and ring might help with the 4 hit set a bit however.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-06-29 12:57:40
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looking for help with alts war. Hes mainly a mage so i just threw this set together with what pieces i randomly had. But after being nearly killed fighting a pug in marjami ravine i figured i should look in to this.

Edit: There were some plasm pieces i was looking at but he hasnt rly done delve; so no plasm

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By Asura.Failaras 2015-06-29 18:36:28
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I don't know Svarga builds very well but you may want to look into what kind of STP you need. Bloodrain Grip/Duplus Grip will beat Claymore. Yetshila or Ginsen if you do need STP, 119 Empyrean basically beats Acro in every slot but hands if you don't need the STP (and still wins in body), Windbuffet Belt+1, JSE Cape, Rajas/K'ayres.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-29 19:59:18
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Asura.Failaras said: »
I don't know Svarga builds very well but you may want to look into what kind of STP you need. Rose Grip/Duplus Grip will beat Claymore. Yetshila or Ginsen if you do need STP, 119 Empyrean basically beats Acro in every slot but hands if you don't need the STP (and still wins in body), Windbuffet Belt+1, JSE Cape, Rajas/K'ayres.


Was there ever any solid info on how much the set bonus procs with each piece? It's a given that Head + Body + Feet should always be used but then legs seem to be at toss up with other options.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-06-30 17:29:45
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Asura.Failaras said: »
I don't know Svarga builds very well but you may want to look into what kind of STP you need. Bloodrain Grip/Duplus Grip will beat Claymore. Yetshila or Ginsen if you do need STP, 119 Empyrean basically beats Acro in every slot but hands if you don't need the STP (and still wins in body), Windbuffet Belt+1, JSE Cape, Rajas/K'ayres.


TP/hit = floor( Base TP/hit × (100 + Store TP Total)÷100 , 1)
what does the comma mean in the formula?
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-06-30 21:06:07
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TP/hit = floor( Base TP/hit × (100 + Store TP Total)÷100)
Used that since i was unsure about the , 1 so im not sure how much that will change this if any.

Took alt out with nothing but axe on. Got 149 tp/hit. So im guessing im looking at needing 35 stp for a 5 hit.
floor(149*(100+35)/100)
floor(149*(135)/100)
floor(20115/100)
floor(201.15)
tp/hit 201

Assuming im able to get the peices to upgrade his set; so far he would be at 30stp

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By Asura.Saevel 2015-06-30 22:02:13
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Ok before you go any further you need to determine how much your getting from your WS. The WS counts as the first hit, so WS + 4 would be your actual 5-hit. Often we WS in less TP then our melee hits, or our WS's have multiple hits which can skew the TP returns one way or another. This is one area that penalizes single hit WS's over multi-hits and why Tsumaru's Save Tp +250 is so broken on SAM.

Main Hit TP then another 10 for each additional hit, then multiply it by your sTP during WS. /SAM adds 15 Store TP so factor that in too.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-07-01 07:40:08
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good point. What ws are wars using with great axe these days? Alt has just been using raging rush while skilling. Ukko's or upheavel?
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-07-01 07:57:28
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Most it's Upheavel and Ukko's, each is favorable in different situations. Hell could even do

Ukko's (Kings if Conq) -> Steel Cyclone -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's

For a nice five hit double light self SC. So might be best to go slightly over on the Store TP.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-07-01 16:16:39
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Ukkos if you want to light with a Sam/Blu/Mnk or if you have Blood Rage up, Upheaval if you want pure damage or you have Warcry up.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-07-04 15:06:07
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k, went and got those two weapon skills, tho upheaval is only at merit1 atm. Not sure if that changes anything.

With only the Svarga on (/nin) the tp/hit was 149. Ukko was 159. And upheaval 179.
So ill go with ukko since its lower. 159+(149*4)=755


Odin.Godofgods said: »
TP/hit = floor( Base TP/hit × (100 + Store TP Total)÷100 , 1)

Not sure how to calculate sTP for ws's, so ill just use the same formula. If its different let me know.

that gives me..
stp32
hit 196
ws 209
total 993

stp33
hit 198
ws 211
total 1003

correct so far or no?
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-07-07 17:44:29
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Sorry for late reply, are you WSing in the same amount of TP as you melee in? Usually you TP in more then your WS in due to gear swaps. And yes that's the correct calculation.

Here is an easy way to do it. First build your WS gear set, then total up all your sTP, include the 15 from /SAM if that is your sub. That that number then multiply it by your WS base TP return. Then subject that number from 1000, that is how much TP you need to get in the remaining 4/5 hits. Divide by the number of remaining hits (4 or 5) to get your target TP per hit, then divide that by your weapons base TP return to get how much Store you need.

So Svarga is 149 base, 159 from Ukko's. You are /SAM and WSing with 11 store TP in gear for a total of 26 Store TP.

159 * 1.26 = 200.34 TP return, drop the decimal for a 200 TP return.

1000 - 200 = 800 needed from melee swings.

800/4 = 200 per hit. You want a five hit (WS+4).

200/149 = 1.342 which is 34.2 Store TP, which means 35 total.

You can use that to get the Store TP of any weapon in any setup.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-07-09 23:03:00
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thats an interesting way to calculate it, Thank you.

Atm the alt would be wsing in the tp set. Since the alt is primarily a mage, this is his first DD set iv put together on him. So it was literally started with random pieces hes acquired and saved along with skirmish gear. I guess the numbers for the tp set will change if i ever get to a ws set.
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2015-07-15 15:41:14
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ItemSet 319201

att/acc, stp, critdmg augments on all the acro gear.
I also have a Macbain with 4 crit rate that I use the same set with.
Torn between crit rate build with rancor collar or defiant necklace.

Below is my gearswap if ppl are interested. (Lately I have only been using the set called "random" and just equiping conq or macbain.)

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By Asura.Saevel 2015-07-17 01:23:46
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Quote:
Torn between crit rate build with rancor collar or defiant necklace.

Crit builds suck, goes doubly for Crit Hit Damage. Change all that Acro CHD into +DA or +STP depending on what your x-hit is looking like. Even with AM3 up, DA still adds ~some~ amount of damage while CHD is so small that it's only useful in large quantities, like that from the Emp feet. This is because CHD is a percentage of a percentage, waters down the effect. DA +3 / Store TP +6 will generally give you more damage per slot.
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