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Color Perception & Optical Illusion Topic
By Kalila 2015-02-27 20:37:25
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »It's not about the mind whatsoever. It's about the light shown on the dress.
Simple as that. If you don't understand that human made light is yellow and gives things tints, then you're dumb. Not trying to be rude at all, it's just fact. It's true that new lights are becoming less yellow.
That's the bottom line of it.
(It does help that I've worked in lighting, professionally, though.) They aren't dumb, they are processing what they are seeing.
Two people who know that the camera shot is bad, and know that the dress is really blue with black lace, can see two different things.
I see a gold with a very light blue, while D sees a dark lace over blue.
it is about perception. We know why the colors look like they do, our brains can take into account as to why the color looks gold/bronze and not black, but what we see doesn't change. What our brain processes doesn't change. Understanding why something is doesn't change what we perceive, ever.
It doesn't matter what it is in life. It could be a picture of a dress, it could be food, or a combination of colors next to each other creating an illusion, or anything. We can only see what we see, and if our perception changes after looking at something a second time, or a third time, etc, then that's you. Not everyone can see black/blue and then see a gold/white. Not everyone who sees gold/white can see blue/black.
I can make out a light blue, but I still see gold/bronze, and that isn't because I'm an idiot, but because that is what my mind is processing as my eyes send images to my brain.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-27 20:39:32
What are you talking about, knowledge changes perception all the time.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-02-27 20:39:50
Now that we know the color of the dress.
What about this?
 I actually saw Plurple listed as a color on one site. I immediate thought of armadaberk
By Bloodrose 2015-02-27 20:47:48
What are you talking about, knowledge changes perception all the time. But Valli can't perceive that!
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-02-27 21:14:11
I haven't heard so much commotion about a blue dress since Monica Lewinsky!
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-02-27 21:21:41
You THINK you see the wrong colors, that means you're wrong. That means you're dumb.
Intelligence tells you that there is a tint to the color, and you ignore it.
It's the same thing as "stupid fingers". You know how to do something, but your fingers mess it up anyway. You KNOW the proper colors and you let your eyes fool you. "FOOL" you.
It's the same sleight of hand kind of thing magicians make a living doing. Your eyes are your own worst enemy.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-02-27 21:23:33
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »You THINK you see the wrong colors, that means you're wrong. That means you're dumb.
Intelligence tells you that there is a tint to the color, and you ignore it.
It's the same thing as "stupid fingers". You know how to do something, but your fingers mess it up anyway. You KNOW the proper colors and you let your eyes fool you. "FOOL" you. I think you're trolling, that means I'm right.
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »That means you're dumb.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-02-27 21:24:27
No ones trolling. I can't help it if you people aren't smart enough to understand day one stuff.
Your eyes, trying to compensate for poor lighting, are playing tricks on you.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-02-27 21:26:10
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »No ones trolling. I can't help it if you people aren't smart enough to understand day one stuff. You're trolling, you just can't see it because your eyes are playing tricks on you.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-02-27 21:28:54
Well, you're just going to topic ban me for being right. So.
By Kalila 2015-02-27 21:30:46
By Kalila 2015-02-27 21:30:51
My answers:
1) white, light-blue, gray
2) dark bronze/tan
3) dark bronze/tan over a light blue'ish purple
4) light blue'ish purple
5) light blue'ish purple with bronze/tan lace
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-02-27 21:31:54
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Well, you're just going to topic ban me for being right. So. Again, your eyes are playing tricks on you, for one you aren't right, you just think you are, secondly I don't plan to topic ban anyone at the moment but that may change.
By Kalila 2015-02-27 21:33:18
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Well, you're just going to topic ban me for being right. So.
did you just admit you see blue and gold with linking that image...?
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-02-27 21:34:17
1. White with natural light.
2. Off-white with dim light
3. White in dim light
4. Looks the same as #1 See #5
EDIT:
5. when looked at together, #4 and 5 appear the same... Odd.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-27 21:34:30
Except you're not right. Nothing you said was even accurate, and no lighting professional worth their salt would even so much as hint at anything you did.
Lighting changes perception, angle of shadows, where the light is coming from, and so forth.
Knowledge is knowing that there is a tint, intelligence is understanding and applying that knowledge as it fits into context - something you've been continuously proven to be ignorant of.
You don't think you see the wrong colors, you perceive the colors differently than someone else does. Knowing or thinking you see the wrong colors is vastly different than the perception, but that's day one stuff as well.
So who's really surprised Valli doesn't know what intelligence is? Oh good, no one.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2015-02-27 21:35:55
I'd love to see someone explain how people could perceive this as having been in bright light from all directions. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's apparently not how my brain works and I'm always curious to know how other people's brains do work.
It isn't about it being bright from every direction persay, it's about overexposure, white balance, color temperature; how low end camera optics and digital photography works.
As basically as possible, when a camera is facing or focusing on a large amount of light, the optical surface is obscured; i.e., the lens is partially covered and as a result "shrinks" to let in less light. This is to theoretically improve picture quality and reduce the risk of damage to the optics. Human eyes work the same way, when you're in a dark room your pupils dilate to allow in more light, when you're facing the sun when driving your pupils shrink to allow in less.
Letting in less light on a lens attached to a digital camera causes the computer attached to it to interpret the data differently. The information is displayed lighter than it should be due to the excess light from elsewhere in the photo being misconstrued, and digital filters cause whitewashing to occur as the entire picture is bastardized by false information. In the case of this picture:
The source is what appears to be a window with the sun shining directly in. Based on the way light is displayed there's probably a second window behind the camera. The camera, probably a phone, is unable to focus on the dress or remove enough light from the shot, this can be seen as optical glare all along the right side of the picture.
The computer, i.e. the phone or throwaway digital camera since nothing else would make a picture this grainy, is interpreting the light as "normal" and that has had a severe negative effect on white balance. I'm not going to explain what white balance is, you can read this article if you care enough. This is one of the primary drawbacks of digital photography when it comes to low grade equipment, you end up with horrific digital artifacting such as this. A normal, non digital camera would have issues too, but not as pronounced, the primary colors in the dress would be much more exposed. Some more advanced cameras are able to deduce what source of light is "normal" and which is not and apply the correct color temperature by itself, and most softwares, even on phones, allow you to edit the color temperature before finalizing a shot. It's likely that the person taking this picture didn't care or didn't think that the entire internet would be in an uproar about whether her dress was blue/black or whether it was gold/white. At the end of the day it doesn't really take much technical or photography knowledge to figure this all out, just need to examine the picture and have a bit of life experience with bad, overexposed digital photos where the person pointing the camera wasn't paying attention or wasn't smart enough to deduce that pointing a camera directly at the sun has bad effects.
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By Valefor.Seravey 2015-02-27 21:39:33
 
The difference between good and bad white balance
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-02-27 21:39:44
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Well, you're just going to topic ban me for being right. So.
did you just admit you see blue and gold with linking that image...?
No, it's a quote from CNN.
The black is a "gloss black" not a "flat black" you're seeing the lightbulbs reflect off the gloss of the black. "flat black" would absorb the light and stay black. The gloss reflects it and appears to be gold/bronze/copper/tan/etcetcetc.
These are things you should have learned in 2nd grade.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2015-02-27 21:45:23
I can probably attribute seeing the black and blue primarily to my brain automatically noticing that the image is washed out and removing the excess white from the image.
Gold/White people probably do the opposite, or don't do it at all.
Why or why not this happens is an answer we may never know, at least not any time soon. Human brain is still a pretty unmapped place. Could be all our brains operate like digital cameras and perform their own white balancing, with some people focusing on the light from the right side of the image and making it brighter while others focus on the dress and make it darker. Human vision is all approximate to begin with. If you want to know what the world really looks like, go ask a fish. They have better optical senses than we do.
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By Kalila 2015-02-27 21:46:35
Yet the whole argument isn't about the dress, and isn't about whether the photo is a bad shot or not. This isn't about photography experience, this isn't about knowing that those aren't the true colors of the dress, and a light is just changing the color to something it isn't. This isn't about deducing that the dress is blue with black lace based on your knowledge.
THIS IS WHETHER YOU SEE GOLD, WHITE, BLUE, OR BLACK
What you see <------------------------------------------------
not what you deduce from the bad photo. What your eyes see when you look at the image.
this isn't about being right or wrong, what anyone is asking is what do you see.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-02-27 21:48:05
Yet the whole argument isn't about the dress, and isn't about whether the photo is a bad shot or not. This isn't about photography experience, this isn't about knowing that those aren't the true colors of the dress, and a light is just changing the color to something it isn't. This isn't about deducing that the dress is blue with black lace based on your knowledge.
THIS IS WHETHER YOU SEE GOLD, WHITE, BLUE, OR BLACK
What you see <------------------------------------------------
not what you deduce from the bad photo. What your eyes see when you look at the image.
this isn't about being right or wrong, what anyone is asking is what do you see. I see an angry woman with a yellow bar.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2015-02-27 21:48:57
Look, you can be belligerent and rude about it all you want. Ono asked a question and I answered.
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By Kalila 2015-02-27 21:50:40
talking to valli
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2015-02-27 22:05:59
Took me several hours but I finally tricked my brain into seeing both the shadow and the overexposure, the overexposure being what I couldn't initially see. It's still difficult for me to believe the dress is actually such a deep shade of blue.
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2015-02-27 22:17:18
Are we at NINE PAGES yet? :p
Sorry, just my two-cents: it's a crappy washed-out photo, as Prothescar noted with tonnes of oversaturation and multiple light-sources.
Does Valli et al have a point that cognitive thought (even at subconscious levels) will fill in details concerning the nature of what is perceived? I would say "yes", as that is how our minds work--based off of visual cues. I would think that if the picture were not so closely-cropped and showed more background and light-sources, that most anyone would disregard the alteration of colours based on that greater amount of evidence, but for some viewers that was not needed to make their initial conclusions.
Does Kalila have a point that the camera captured a certain RGBY/Patone-Matching-System™/whatever colour combination? Yes, as that is what the cheap camera with bad lighting happened to capture. So are you seeing those 'actual' colours? Yes. But is there a point to that realisation?
I have photo albums my parents took of life in the 70's LOL...all of them (even the super-sharp, well-developed ones) are all browned-out, without exception. They are like a symphony of browns and sepia...even the blues are now grey-brown. :p Does my eye see these browns? I can't help but see them LOL.
Does my rational mind even once think that even with this empirical data that the world of the 70's was ever this brown? Well there was a lot of corduroy and leather, but still...no. :p But yes, for what it's worth and what it matters, the photos are brown. But does that matter at all to anyone? :p
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By Bahamut.Ascadia 2015-02-27 22:18:29
I'm fully aware that the photo is grossly overexposed and that the dress is actually blue and black, but I absolutely cannot make myself see it in any colors other than white/pale blue and gold. It's kind of uncomfortable seeing something that you know is wrong.
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By Kalila 2015-02-27 22:19:18
Dogs only seeing black and white is a misconception. :)
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2015-02-27 22:22:03
I know...it was a joke. :p
NINE PAGES did not come fast enough. ^_-
By Kalila 2015-02-27 22:29:28
<---- is horrible with jokes, I'll never catch one
Before I begin, let me apologize for the long length/spacing of the topic. This is on purpose.
I thought this was silly, I mean... I see gold and white of course (well, really I see gold and blue), but D sees blue with black. In the past we've had discussions about what a color is on FFXIAH concerning certain game icons, so I thought this might be a bit fun to try.
Let me know what you think. Do you see a Black/Blue dress? A Gold/White? or a Gold/Blue?
So... this is a silly thing going around the internet, and now news stations. Here is the picture:
What color is the dress?
This is the question that has made everyone stupid crazy, and fighting with each other in some cases.
Before you scroll down to the breakdown of what color the dress really is, I want you to take a good look at the above, and decide what you think. Is this a white dress with gold lace, or a blue dress with black lace? or... a blue dress with gold lace (this is what I see).
So....
The person who took this photo, also bought the dress for a wedding.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00SJEUCWU/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00SJEUCWU&linkCode=as2&tag=bithedress-21&linkId=LIATY5TENJ7ORHXX
and here she is wearing it:
So, why does the photo at the wedding look different than the original photo taken that is making everyone argue whether or not the dress is white/gold, blue/gold, or blue/black?
Shadows and strong light behind it screwing with the camera. Cameras are not the same as eyes. The camera was overexposed.
What matters is whether or not you perceive the photo as overexposed in general or as having a deep shadow cast over the dress. Your brain will automatically correct for whichever one you believe, and you'll see either white/gold or blue/black.
So, what are the real colors of the photo? Is it really blue on black?
Let's pull out the RBG values...
There really isn't any black here, not a single pixel is black. The reason why some people don't see gold/white or gold/blue is because of how our brains work. Saying it again: "What matters is whether or not you perceive the photo as overexposed in general or as having a deep shadow cast over the dress. Your brain will automatically correct for whichever one you believe, and you'll see either white/gold or blue/black."
Even if you invert the photo (right side), it will not change whether you see a gold/white or black/blue dress.
Let's take the original amazon photo:
and let's replicate the overexposed shot ( white dress with gold lace. Cranking up the exposure, crushing the shadows, and increased the color temp will produce this:
Now, there is no trickery here. This is a what people see the white dress with gold lace as, and I don't think anyone can argue that. Otherwise... maybe it's your monitor...
This is what people see the original photo as the blue dress with black trim.
Now, why do our eyes work like this?
It's a matter of how your mind interprets the lighting. A white-and-gold dress in cool lighting/shadow could have produced that photo, as could a black-and-blue dress in warm yellow lighting. Your mind determines the colors of the dress based on what it assumes the lighting to be like.
The left side is a blue dress with black lace, the right side is a white dress with gold lace.
Let's brake these 4 sections out and separate them a bit so our eyes can distinguish between them.
I DID NOT EDIT THE IMAGE AT ALL, EXCEPT CROPPING AND SEPARATING THE 4 SECTIONS APART. I DID NOT EDIT THE COLOR VALUES AT ALL. THE RGB VALUES BELOW EACH SECTION ARE THE REAL COLORS FOR THE STRIPES ON THE DRESS.
Closest Color Name:
Gambogeish Black
Closest Color Name:
Moderate Phthalo Blue
| | Closest Color Name:
Grayish Gold
Closest Color Name:
Phthalo Bluish Gray
| | Closest Color Name:
Dark Grayish Gold
Closest Color Name:
Grayish Phthalo Blue
| | Closest Color Name:
Moderate gold
Closest Color Name:
Light Spring Budish Gray
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The main thing to take away here are the names of the two "golds" and the two "blues". The left gold is named "Grayish Gold" while the right is "Dark Grayish Gold", and the left blue is named "Phthalo Bluish Gray", while the right is "Grayish Phthalo Blue". They are very similar to each other, which why each of us sees the dress differently.
Let me do this with the original photo as well, but this time I'll remove the background and only show the dress itself.
 | 
 | Average Color Name:
Dark Phthalo Bluish Gray
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| Average Color Name:
Dark Sapphire Bluish Gray
| | | |
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| Average Color Name:
Dark Sapphire Bluish Gray
| | | |
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| Average Color Name:
Dark Grayish Amber
| | | |
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| Average Color Name:
Dark Grayish Gamboge
| | | |
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| Average Color Name:
Dark Sapphire Bluish Gray
| | | |
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| Average Color Name:
Reddish Brownish Gray
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I'm sorry for the long OP, but I just thought it was pretty cool. Yea, this is all because of a bad camera shot, but this sparked a color debate war on whether it was gold/white, or black/blue, and I just think that's pretty cool how the mind works.
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