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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 11:16:33
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.
I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft.
It was probablyclearly a bad judgment call to fly through Ukrainian airspace.
But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act.
No. In real life there isn't a box over your target telling you its a good or bad guy. There isn't even a picture of the target. Just a radar ping with the ELINT data acquired from it. Actually being able to read and interpret that data then cross reference it with a list of known signatures is an entire speciality to itself. Targeteers go to special schools for each weapons platform the operate on just to learn these things. Otherwise you get them shooting at ***they shouldn't be shooting at.
I stand corrected on that particular front, then. I was not under the impression real combat is like CoD, but I did think there was some sort of method within the targeting itself that identified these things for you or somehow otherwise allowed you to confirm your target in a more rapid fashion.
Doesn't change the fact some terrorist (freedom fighter, if you're sympathetic) fired a missle without confirming their target and killed 300 innocent people. It depends on the system; comparing emissions and radar returns against known databases and assigning probable outcomes is a relatively straightforward exercise, as well as providing the (relatively) raw signal for cross checking and allowing checking against any jamming, etc.
Regardless, as you say, it doesn't change the fact that this was a tragedy that didn't have to occur.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:17:23
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Fenrir.Atheryn
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 11:20:44
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I think it's unreasonable to assume everyone knows how commercial aviation functions considering all passengers do is sit in their seats and mull over the bag fees and stale peanuts.
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:
- wishing the teenage girl 3 rows back would stop singing at the top of her lungs off key while listening to music on her headphones while everyone is trying to sleep
- wondering which of the Chicken or the Fish will make me the least sick
- praying that the stewardess will offer refreshments again before I pass out from thirst
- contemplating whether or not strangling the woman sitting on the Emergency Exit door (the one labeled with "DO NOT SIT ON EMERGENCY EXIT DOOR" in giant red text) would count as justifiable homicide.
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Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 11:23:39
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target? It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:25:11
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:25:46
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target? It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
He certainly has his moments.
I'll give him that.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:28:59
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target? It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
He certainly has his moments.
I'll give him that. Don't we all?
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:32:57
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target? It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
He certainly has his moments.
I'll give him that. Don't we all?
Fair enough.
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 11:35:10
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
How much are you taking home from RT?
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Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-07-18 11:37:43
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:
You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!
Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.
By fonewear 2014-07-18 11:39:05
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
You card reads good ! They just want to fly through the "danger zone"...songs commences
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:42:43
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:
You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!
Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.
Last time I flew home from visiting my dad in Arizona I had the absolute worst of all cliches in flying. Person next to me with far too big of a carry-on, I had a cold, couldn't sleep -- even with noise-canceling headphones -- because there was a screaming child kicking my seat whose mothing was a weak-willed ninny. There were layovers at Washington-Dulles for like three hours and my 80+ year-old grandmother who was traveling with me had to go through way more security than a 4' 8" 90-lb woman should ever have to go through.
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Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 11:43:37
The MA plane was where it was supposed to be. At the right altitude and on the correct path. The missile that hit the plane was not.
Quote: According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying. https://www.eurocontrol.int/news/mh-17-ukraine
Hindsight:
-maybe Ukraine should have issued a complete no-fly in the area (rather than the limited one they had in place) earlier than yesterday after the crash
-Maybe the pro-Russian seperatists who have been actively shooting down flying military objects over the last month should have issued a no fly zone. If they "control their air" then that is part of their responsiblity
-Maybe ICAO should have adjusted their risk assessments.
According to aviation experts interviewed by Newsweek, it is not uncommon for civilian airlines to travel over conflict zones.
Quote: Patrick Smith, author of longtime pilot and aviation expert and author of Cockpit Confidential, points out that "hundreds of commercial airplanes fly over Iraq every day."
"There are protocols and safeguards in place for all of these places," he says.
David Ison, assistant professor of aeronautics and chair of the aeronautical science master’s program at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, adds: “It’s not unusual to overfly areas of military activity. We used to fly over live fire."
Fenrir.Atheryn
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 11:47:35
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:
You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!
Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.
I generally do that, but on a long haul flight there's only so much you can pack.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 11:51:41
I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.
*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.
Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though."
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Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:54:06
It won't be as common now lol...
The protocols and safeguards didn't work here...
Just because someone used to do it doesn't make it a good idea...
VIP
Server: Odin
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Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 11:54:06
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
By reports, the airspace they were flying in was NOT considered dangerous, the airspace below 32,000 feet was NOT a no fly zone, and they were flying at 33,000, well in the clear of what could be considered a dangerous route or provocation. Moreover, they broadcast a signal identifying them as a commercial airliner than even soviet era fixed batteries would be able to pick up. So, in order for the plane to have been taken down by a sam battery, it was either a deliberate act of terrorism, or a mistake by untrained people operating a mobile battery like the "Buk". This is more analogous to the "all clear" area between two minefields. This scene comes to mind....
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:55:26
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting. That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.
Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?
I never apologized for anyone either.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:56:33
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting. I think the point is that if you know that there's danger ahead you probably shouldn't walk right into it lol...
Your outright dismissal of any negligence on the part of the people responsible for the safety of these flight passengers is pretty concerning too...
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:56:51
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target? It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information. Says the guy who only contributions to any thread are that of a little kid with his fingers in his ears.
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VIP
Server: Odin
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Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 11:58:01
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting. That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.
Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?
I never apologized for anyone either.
Their operating methodology is that of terrorists, not freedom fighters. Naming rights, by the way, are generally reserved for the winners.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:00:22
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
How much are you taking home from RT? As much as you get from NBC.
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VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 12:01:30
I do get a serious chuckle out of people who subscribe to one narrow viewpoint or source and call everyone else sheep...
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:02:35
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.
Maybe it should have been.
But it wasn't.
And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting. That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.
Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?
I never apologized for anyone either.
Their operating methodology is that of terrorists, not freedom fighters. Naming rights, by the way, are generally reserved for the winners. What the... ummm... freedom fighters are today's terrorists, you are aware of this, right?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-18 12:03:01
I get all my news from an 11 year old videogame's website.
Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 12:03:17
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.
*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.
Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though." You can check your flight route before you leave the ground and it is displayed on a map on the plane. At least it has been on every international and European flight I've taken. Either at the front of each section of the plane or on the tv/computer sets on the back of the chairs.
It also lists cruising speed, altitude, and expected time of arrival, updated in real time.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 12:03:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
How much are you taking home from RT? As much as you get from NBC.
Actually I work at PBS so...
Would you like to donate 40 bucks to keep us on the air? For your generous donation you'll get a copy of Bees: Rise of a Swarm and an insulated thermos.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 12:04:08
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.
*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.
Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though." You can check your flight route before you leave the ground and it is displayed on a map on the plane. At least it has been on every international and European flight I've taken. Either at the front of each section of the plane or on the tv/computer sets on the back of the chairs.
It also lists cruising speed, altitude, and expected time of arrival, updated in real time.
Silly Kara, expecting people to know basic geography.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:04:12
Or should we sell some more nuclear weapons to Iran to fund some coked out Nicaraguans again for freedom?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-18 12:04:19
What the... ummm... freedom fighters are today's terrorists, you are aware of this, right?
there's a difference between blowing up a military supply depot, & blowing up a marketplace full of civilians.
there is a difference in the terms you are describing.
Malaysian plane reportedly shot down in Ukraine near Russian border
Quote: A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, Ukrainian officials said, as both the government and the pro-Russia rebels fighting in the region denied any responsibility for downing the aircraft.
The flight was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew, the airline confirmed. Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smoldering wreckage in the village of Hrabove, located about 25 miles from the Russian border.
Al Jazeera’s Scott Heidler reported that the area is controlled by rebel fighters and has seen heavy fighting recently.
"We’re talking a large area of what looks like at least two fields. There is a farm road right in between them, the big wreck, as I was talking about, on one side, farmers on the other,” Heidler said.
Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, said on his Facebook page that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk surface-to-air missile system, which Russia began producing in the mid-1990s.
A senior U.S. official confirmed that the flight was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
The self-appointed prime minister of the Donetsk region in eastern Ukraine, Alexander Borodai, told Al Jazeera that he was headed to the location of the downed plane and that a Donetsk People's Republic investigation team was now in the area. He blamed the downing of the plane on Ukraine's government forces.
"Apparently, it's a passenger airliner indeed, truly shot down by the Ukrainian air force," Borodai told Russia's state-run Rossiya 24 TV broadcaster.
Russian news agency RIA-Novosti quoted Borodai as saying rebels intend to call a three-day cease-fire to allow an investigation of the crash.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, meanwhile, called the downing an act of terrorism and called for an international investigation into the crash. He insisted that his forces did not shoot down the plane. Poroshenko said his country's armed forces didn't shoot at any airborne targets.
"We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," he said. "We are sure that those who are guilty in this tragedy will be held responsible."
The death toll includes 23 U.S. citizens, according to a Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser quoted by Interfax news agency.
President Barack Obama, speaking in Delaware on Thursday afternoon, said the U.S. would "offer any assistance to help determine what happened and why."
Malaysia Airlines confirmed on its Twitter feed earlier Thursday that it had lost contact with Flight MH17, which was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, adding that "the last known position was over Ukrainian airspace."
Malaysia Airlines also said that it received notification from Ukrainian air traffic control that it lost contact with the plane, a Boeing 777, about 31 miles from the Russia-Ukraine border.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said on his Twitter page that he was "shocked" by the reports of the crash and that the government was "launching an immediate investigation."
Meanwhile, Britain has asked for an urgent meeting of the United Nations Security Council to discuss the crisis in Ukraine, diplomats said Thursday.
The flight, according to the aviation tracking website Flightstats.com, was scheduled to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 6:10 a.m. local time. Major airlines have diverted their flight paths and said they would avoid flying over Ukrainian airspace.
Meanwhile, the Kremlin said that Russian President Vladimir Putin and Obama discussed the plane crash in Ukraine during a phone call.
The development comes a day after the Ukrainian military said a Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian air force plane that was on military operations over eastern Ukraine, where government forces are fighting to quell a pro-Russian rebellion.
The incident also comes after a Malaysia Airlines plane went missing on March 8 on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 passengers and crew on board. It has not been found.
Philip J. Victor contributed to this report, with Al Jazeera and wire services.
Looks like Pro-Russian separatists done goofed here and Malaysia Airlines might want to consider rebranding if they don't outright go bankrupt.
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