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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-17 23:55:55
This was posted in the other thread. Be careful when clicking on the NSFL links.
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2ayjwz/malaysian_plane_crashes_over_the_ukraine/
Pro-Russian separatists have started deleting pictures they took of their BUK(s) and a tweet gloating about shooting down another military plane, before they went to the crash site. the twitter account has something like 130,000 followers and people took screenshots.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-07-18 00:12:17
No one ever accused these people of being smart.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 01:35:25
There were rumors yesterday that 1/3 of the passengers were children. That is still unconfirmed (some of the pictures tweeted show some children's bodies, I don't recommend looking at them or any of the remains pictures). Three infants (under 12 months flying in parents lap) deaths have been confirmed bringing total to 298.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html
Quote: List of number of passengers and crew according to nationality are as follows:
Netherlands: 154
Malaysia: 43 (including 15 crew & 2 infants)
Australia: 27
Indonesia: 12 (including 1 infant)
United Kingdom: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
Unverified: 41
Total: 298
Edit:
Quote: 07:16: A "large number of world-renowned Aids researchers and activists" were on Flight MH17 heading to an international conference in Australia, AP reports from Sydney. Among them was former president of the International Aids Society Joep Lange, a well-known Dutch HIV researcher.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-18 02:04:08
Welp, I guess if they wanted to get the world involved in their fight, that was the way to do it.
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Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 02:28:37
So we have a Russian backed act of terrorism against the Netherlands, Malaysia, the US, and whomever else was killed on the flight. I'm sure Putin is scrambling to figure out how to blame this on the Ukraine and Obama, don't think the world is going to go for it tho. The Ukraine doesn't just have missile defense systems laying around, and I doubt the separatists even know how to use one. So much delusional. I don't normally agree with KN. So keep that in mind when I mention that you sound like a news site comment submitter.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 02:51:47
No one ever accused these people of being smart. Most people aren't smart. Most soldiers aren't smart. Most people, by definition, are average. For that reason, most military systems are designed to be used by people of average or lower intellect, with proper supplemental training.
By Kazumha 2014-07-18 04:18:52
Quote: most military systems are designed to be used by people of average or lower intellect
That is not entirely true, Some of the systems that i used and were around in langley where not at all able to be operated by people of lesser intellect.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 04:26:39
Quote: most military systems are designed to be used by people of average or lower intellect
That is not entirely true, Some of the systems that i used and were around in langley where not at all able to be operated by people of lesser intellect. ?
Which is why the word "Most" was used, versus "All".
By fonewear 2014-07-18 06:50:41
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »
Edit: random gif related
Sign translates to Thanks Obama.
Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 07:36:39
To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines.
It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying.
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 07:50:35
For anyone interested;
Janes.com said: An airliner cruising at around 30,000 ft altitude would be well above the coverage of shoulder-fired man-portable missile systems, which typically can engage targets flying at up to around 10,000 ft.
Ukraine has long-range Soviet-era missile systems in its inventory such as the SA-2, -3, -5, and -12 that would have no difficulty to downing a target flying at 30,000 ft. However, these systems are deployed at permanent launch sites that have launchers and associated radars located at specific locations distributed around the site. Their operators would have a good idea of the air traffic present in the surrounding area, so it would be unlikely to mistake an airliner for a combat aircraft.
Downing an airliner flying at normal cruise altitude would require a mobile SAM system such as a Kub (known to the West as the SA-6 'Gainful) or the 'Buk'. Both are in Ukrainian service.
The Kub can cope with targets flying at up to 26,000 ft (8,000 m), so it cannot reach the reported cruise height of the airliner. Buk coverage, however, extends up to 72,000 ft, with its maximum range being 32 km.
So at first sight, the Buk seems a good candidate for this incident.
When fielded, a Buk firing battery consists of:
- the 9S18M1Target Acquisition Radar used to acquire potential aerial targets and transmit their position and tracks;
- the 9S470M1 Command Post (CP) vehicle (contains the missile battery's data display and control system; digital fire-control computer, which assigns targets to individual launchers; and computes the engagement); and
- one or more 9A310M1S launchers each armed with four radar-guided missiles.
All three of these systems are vehicle-mounted.
In a normal engagement, all three would operate as an integrated weapon system and crew of the CP vehicle are likely to have a good idea of the local air activity.
However, a Buk launcher can also operate in stand-alone mode. Its built-in radar is normally used to track the target being engaged, but can be operated in a target-detection mode, allowing it to autonomously engage targets that were present in the radar's forward field of view.
Although it has its own identification friend or foe system, this is only able to establish whether the target being tracked is a friendly aircraft. It is the electronic equivalent of a sentry calling out: "Who goes there?". If there is no reply, all you know is that it is not one of your own combat aircraft. It would not give you a warning that you were tracking an airliner.
Operating Buk hardware would require a trained crew; with personnel who are currently trained operators or who learned how to operate the hardware while serving as conscripts.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 07:50:40
To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines.
It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. I'm sure that's a great consolation to the families of the deceased.
They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs.
Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 07:55:08
To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines.
It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. I'm sure that's a great consultation to the families of the deceased.
They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs.
Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence.
I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense.
But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? ><
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 08:04:03
To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines.
It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. I'm sure that's a great consolation to the families of the deceased.
They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs.
Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence.
I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense.
But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? >< If they are heavily engaged in a civil war with active threats on a daily basis of being bombed? It's called fighting for your lives. To call them scumbags, means you really have no idea what is going on over there.
For all we know this was done by automatic missile systems from the Ukrainian army.
But definitely don't blame the cheapskates. Cause saving money is more important than saving lives.
By fonewear 2014-07-18 08:07:31
I heard shooting down the plane was a new conceptual art project.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 08:09:43
I heard shooting down the plane was a new conceptual art project. San Francisco is over that way.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 08:17:05
To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines.
It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. I'm sure that's a great consolation to the families of the deceased.
They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs.
Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence.
I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense.
But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? >< If they are heavily engaged in a civil war with active threats on a daily basis of being bombed? It's called fighting for your lives. To call them scumbags, means you really have no idea what is going on over there.
For all we know this was done by automatic missile systems from the Ukrainian army.
But definitely don't blame the cheapskates. Cause saving money is more important than saving lives.
"We mistook a civillian jet airliner for a bomber" is about as much consolation as "we were just trying to save money".
I'm just saying blame the people actively trying to kill other people first, maybe.
By fonewear 2014-07-18 08:18:23
I guess they need new hobbies in the Ukraine besides shooting down airplanes.
Maybe they should try yoga.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 08:22:06
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
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By fonewear 2014-07-18 08:23:58
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 08:26:43
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.
I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft.
It was probablyclearly a bad judgment call to fly through Ukrainian airspace.
But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-07-18 08:32:56
Bahamut.Demoncard said: »No one ever accused these people of being smart. In what circumstances would calling someone smart be an accusation? Because to him, intelligence is a bad thing.
You take what is given to you and no questions asked!
Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-18 08:52:44
This is what happens when semi-trained militants get a hold of military grade hardware. It's looking like they knew how to operate it but didn't have the signals analyst to properly identify the electronic signature of what they were targeting. Most likely they got it from one of the bases they took over.
Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-18 08:58:07
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.
I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft.
It was probablyclearly a bad judgment call to fly through Ukrainian airspace.
But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act.
No. In real life there isn't a box over your target telling you its a good or bad guy. There isn't even a picture of the target. Just a radar ping with the ELINT data acquired from it. Actually being able to read and interpret that data then cross reference it with a list of known signatures is an entire speciality to itself. Targeteers go to special schools for each weapons platform the operate on just to learn these things. Otherwise you get them shooting at ***they shouldn't be shooting at.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 08:58:12
The flight paths are not determined by the airlines. International Civil Aviation Organization does risk assessments and had not warned about travel over this part of Ukraine being dangerous.
Quote: MH17’s flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace. Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules.
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-18 08:58:21
News here said that their aim was Putin's plane which was also supposed to fly along the same path that day. But since I keep reading that this was made by russians I guess it's to try to pass the blame and make Russia look like the victim?
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 08:59:43
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.
I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft.
It was probablyclearly a bad judgment call to fly through Ukrainian airspace.
But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act. They were warned that this was likely to happen. They chose to ignore that warning and they will now have to make all the changes they would have in the first place if they had listened.
They gambled with human lives and lost BIG. Did they have any intent for it to turn out this way. Most likely not... but when you are responsible for the lives of about 300 people and you choose to send them into a war zone after you've been warned about the potential threats...
They'll end up taking a beating over this too...
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 09:00:38
News here said that their aim was Putin's plane which was also supposed to fly along the same path that day. But since I keep reading that this was made by russians I guess it's to try to pass the blame and make Russia look like the victim? What news sites are you reading?
Malaysian plane reportedly shot down in Ukraine near Russian border
Quote: A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, Ukrainian officials said, as both the government and the pro-Russia rebels fighting in the region denied any responsibility for downing the aircraft.
The flight was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew, the airline confirmed. Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smoldering wreckage in the village of Hrabove, located about 25 miles from the Russian border.
Al Jazeera’s Scott Heidler reported that the area is controlled by rebel fighters and has seen heavy fighting recently.
"We’re talking a large area of what looks like at least two fields. There is a farm road right in between them, the big wreck, as I was talking about, on one side, farmers on the other,” Heidler said.
Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, said on his Facebook page that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk surface-to-air missile system, which Russia began producing in the mid-1990s.
A senior U.S. official confirmed that the flight was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
The self-appointed prime minister of the Donetsk region in eastern Ukraine, Alexander Borodai, told Al Jazeera that he was headed to the location of the downed plane and that a Donetsk People's Republic investigation team was now in the area. He blamed the downing of the plane on Ukraine's government forces.
"Apparently, it's a passenger airliner indeed, truly shot down by the Ukrainian air force," Borodai told Russia's state-run Rossiya 24 TV broadcaster.
Russian news agency RIA-Novosti quoted Borodai as saying rebels intend to call a three-day cease-fire to allow an investigation of the crash.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, meanwhile, called the downing an act of terrorism and called for an international investigation into the crash. He insisted that his forces did not shoot down the plane. Poroshenko said his country's armed forces didn't shoot at any airborne targets.
"We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," he said. "We are sure that those who are guilty in this tragedy will be held responsible."
The death toll includes 23 U.S. citizens, according to a Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser quoted by Interfax news agency.
President Barack Obama, speaking in Delaware on Thursday afternoon, said the U.S. would "offer any assistance to help determine what happened and why."
Malaysia Airlines confirmed on its Twitter feed earlier Thursday that it had lost contact with Flight MH17, which was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, adding that "the last known position was over Ukrainian airspace."
Malaysia Airlines also said that it received notification from Ukrainian air traffic control that it lost contact with the plane, a Boeing 777, about 31 miles from the Russia-Ukraine border.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said on his Twitter page that he was "shocked" by the reports of the crash and that the government was "launching an immediate investigation."
Meanwhile, Britain has asked for an urgent meeting of the United Nations Security Council to discuss the crisis in Ukraine, diplomats said Thursday.
The flight, according to the aviation tracking website Flightstats.com, was scheduled to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 6:10 a.m. local time. Major airlines have diverted their flight paths and said they would avoid flying over Ukrainian airspace.
Meanwhile, the Kremlin said that Russian President Vladimir Putin and Obama discussed the plane crash in Ukraine during a phone call.
The development comes a day after the Ukrainian military said a Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian air force plane that was on military operations over eastern Ukraine, where government forces are fighting to quell a pro-Russian rebellion.
The incident also comes after a Malaysia Airlines plane went missing on March 8 on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 passengers and crew on board. It has not been found.
Philip J. Victor contributed to this report, with Al Jazeera and wire services.
Looks like Pro-Russian separatists done goofed here and Malaysia Airlines might want to consider rebranding if they don't outright go bankrupt.
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