6hit Build, Sword Strap Or Pole Grip

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6hit build, sword strap or pole grip
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 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:17:55
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Hi, I was wanting to see what the sam group on FFXIAH thought about these two builds.

This one is your normal 6hit build



This one uses usu body and sword strap to lower your delay but stay in 6hit


Which one would be the better choice?
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:19:19
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I thought directly lowering the delay of your weapon (ala Sword Strap) affects your TP gain per hit? Would that mess up your 6 hit, or is 3% insignificant enough to not affect it?
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 Alexander.Nepharite
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By Alexander.Nepharite 2010-04-05 16:22:07
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he is putting on more store tp for the sword strap


edit~ if you use the sword strap, make sure you don't lose too much store tp in your ws gear set to effect you.
 Unicorn.Sedres
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By Unicorn.Sedres 2010-04-05 16:26:08
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Sword Strap if you can maintain your 6-hit, Pole if not
 Sylph.Sindri
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By Sylph.Sindri 2010-04-05 16:26:40
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Rose Strap
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:27:10
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Alexander.Nepharite said:
edit~ if you use the sword strap, make sure you don't lose too much store tp in your ws gear set to effect you.

Good point. I'm not a big fan of the sword strap during WS since it won't increase dmg at all (other than increasing WS frequency) and require more STP in WS to remain 6hit.
 Cerberus.Watanabie
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By Cerberus.Watanabie 2010-04-05 16:28:24
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Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:



This one uses usu body and sword strap to lower your delay but stay in 6hit


Which one would be the better choice?

This one is the better set, far superior for tp'ing simply because of the 3% lower delay, while keeping the 6hit. Over time it will out perform the first set by a large margin. Not only that but usu body is just better than Haub for tp period.
 Carbuncle.Magistrella
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By Carbuncle.Magistrella 2010-04-05 16:30:49
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Well lets see the downsides....

First:

+ 2% more DA
+ ~11 more attack thanks to hauby

- ~1acc which would be on usu body

Second:

+ 3% less delay
+ 32 more eva on body
+ ~1 acc on body

- ~11 atk lost

Well... in my opinion I couldnt care less bout atk in tp setup on my sam, hit faster get faster tp so second set

BUT - if youre /war i'd suggest to use the DA grip since the higher it accumulates the faster you get more tp out of it ^^

/nin (where you obviously await to tank) go with sword strap and usu body >.> survivability > more dmg... if youre dead you wont do dmg for 5 min so... yeah


Greetz ('-')/
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-04-05 16:33:16
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Quote:
BUT - if youre /war i'd suggest to use the DA grip since the higher it accumulates the faster you get more tp out of it ^^

Wrong
Quote:
Rose Strap
Also wrong
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 Lakshmi.Eyrhika
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By Lakshmi.Eyrhika 2010-04-05 16:34:55
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Double attack has diminishing returns, the more you have, the less more does. So /WAR you would get less out of Pole than /NIN. I tend to agree with Wata, if you have the Usu feet and body, rock the sword strap.
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By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:34:56
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The sword grip would function like haste does, but the problem is it also directly affects your delay and thus TP per hit. Hopefully you'll have enough STP so it wont affect your 6 hit build.
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 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:35:56
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@ Watanabie What WS set would you suggest to remain 6hit with the sword strap?

@ Magistrella Your /war situation is interesting. I was under the impression that DA gives diminished returns the more you stack it. I remember a chart that compared haste vs. DA. I think Raenryong posted it somewhere.
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By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:36:06
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Oh right. Usu feet & body. ***, go for the strap that would essentially be like 3% haste. Gives you a 2% bonus over just sporting fumas. Not to mention you get all that sexy acc, atk, and enmity from the boots too.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-04-05 16:36:19
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Artemicion said:
The sword grip would function like haste does, but the problem is it also directly affects your delay and thus TP per hit. Hopefully you'll have enough STP so it wont affect your 6 hit build.
w/ the set he posted, 6hit not effected.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-04-05 16:37:55
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Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
@ Watanabie What WS set would you suggest to remain 6hit with the sword strap?

@ Magistrella Your /war situation is interesting. I was under the impression that DA gives diminished returns the more you stack it. I remember a chart that compared haste vs. DA. I think Raenryong posted it somewhere.
WS in Rajas and brutal,you will keep 6hit

As for the 2nd portion of your post, I already covered that with "Wrong"

That's not how not how it works.
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:38:45
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I forgot to look at the booties. Go for it, looks sexy.
But Veg, can you do some math to see how much STP you would require to have -3% delay not *** up your 6 hit build?
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 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:39:19
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I figured without any haste buffs i.e. spell, songs. It is roughly = 3% haste.

The more buffs I get though the less it compares to haste, coming out to be about 1% haste with the spell and double march on.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:41:34
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@ Artemicion you need 16STP in gear with capped STP merits on Sam.

My set gives me 19stp.
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:42:24
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Well even when you're fully buffed with haste and march, it would basically totally let you get away with usukane and break even in the haste department vs wearing Fumas. So thus it would be a free 7 atk 7 acc buffed, and all that +2% more haste unbuffed.

Much better than 2% DA especially since the more you get the less it'll do for you as strange as that sounds. Math is fuzzy silly.
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By Carbuncle.Magistrella 2010-04-05 16:45:04
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I dont know whenever i said comparing it to haste but... yeah oh well... reading > thinking > stating

anyways, DA is a certain percentage of getting a second hit when you do a melee hit. So see it that way:

Everytime you do a hit you have a 17% chance to do a DA

You get hasted -> you hit faster -> more hits = more chances to DA = more TP

so... correct me if im wrong, but why would you want to hit for 3% faster if you can get 2% more DA chances on your already fast hits?

Yeah... oh well... guess thats only my thinking
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:50:10
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There was a formula someone had for showing how DA has diminishing returns while stacked haste only got better and better. I can't recall the formula off the top of my head but it was posted earlier by someone I can't recall :<
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 16:54:18
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
WS in Rajas and brutal,you will keep 6hit
Awesome so I can go full bore str setup without having to put in STP other than rajas and brutal which I'd be wearing anyway. That sells it, totally going with the usu body/sword strap set.
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:54:32
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Okay here it is.
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
It's basically since DA is adding and haste is actually taking away.

For example, let's say you have 100 attack rounds, add 10% DA

you attack 110 times instead of 100, 10% increase.

Now let's say you're already subbing war, so in 100 attack rounds, your base number goes from 110 to 115 w/ brutal

115/110 = 4.5% increase, where as if you weren't subbing war, it would have been 105/100 = 5% increase.


With haste though its diff because if you looked at it like DA, 50% haste would mean you're attacking x1.5 as fast as you were before, but w/ haste, it's actually a deduction from your delay

So let's say you have 400 delay
400 x .5 200 delay. 200 delay is twice as fast as 400 delay, not x1.5

Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
DA has decreasing returns because it's additive. Thus, the same amount added multiple times is a smaller % addition each time. If you start with 100 rounds and add 1% DA, the increase is 101/100=1.01 or 1%. If you have 50% DA (150 rounds) and add 1%, it's 151/150=1.00667 or 0.667%

Haste has inncreasing returns because it reduces your delay. The formula for the increase is (newhaste-oldhaste)/(100-newhaste), or the difference in haste levels divided by the resulting attack speed as compared to our base speed. 1% Haste at 0% base is (1-0)/(100-1)=1/99=1.01% increase. 1% more Haste at 50% base is (51-50)/(100-51)=1/49=2.04% increase. Can also do it as decimals, (0.51-0.5)/(1-0.51), same answer. Just a preference thing.

The only other stat I can think of off the top of my head with increasing returns all the way from floor to cap is evasion, as you're reducing the number of hits that connect. If you're below the floor or capped there's obviously a return of 0 though. Attack, defense, STR, accuracy, etc all have decreasing returns.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-04-05 16:55:18
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Between the two builds you posted, the second one wins. A better comparison would be Usu body and Fuma Sune-ate in the first build vs the second build as posted, which depends on whether the 7 accuracy on Usukane Sune-ate matters. If it does, Sword Strap build wins; otherwise the Fuma + Pole build will win.
By Artemicion 2010-04-05 16:55:50
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The only downside to this is Sword Strap gives you no benefit for weapon skilling unlike Pole grip, but since you TP more frequently than you WS, it's better to have a significant improvement for what takes up most of your meleeing time than something that yields very little for both.
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 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-04-05 17:06:42
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Not as large as a benefit is being lost as you'd think. The additional hits of a WS do not have fTP or acc boosts like the first hits do. Chances are, you're going to be missing your double attack ~30% of the time, because you'll be WSing in pure STR+.
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-04-05 17:10:35
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Quote:
I dont know whenever i said comparing it to haste but... yeah oh well... reading > thinking > stating

anyways, DA is a certain percentage of getting a second hit when you do a melee hit. So see it that way:

Everytime you do a hit you have a 17% chance to do a DA

You get hasted -> you hit faster -> more hits = more chances to DA = more TP

so... correct me if im wrong, but why would you want to hit for 3% faster if you can get 2% more DA chances on your already fast hits?

Yeah... oh well... guess thats only my thinking
Because -3% delay is a 3% increase MINIMUM and 2% DA is a 2% increase MAXIMUM in number of swings. The more DA you have to begin with, the lower that 2% gets (/war and brutal for example would make 2% more DA a 1.something% increase)
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-04-05 17:15:39
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Caitsith.Linear said:
Not as large as a benefit is being lost as you'd think. The additional hits of a WS do not have fTP or acc boosts like the first hits do. Chances are, you're going to be missing your double attack ~30% of the time, because you'll be WSing in pure STR+.
Do the additional hits of a WS have fTP if you use a WS gorget?
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-04-05 17:18:46
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No. They do get the 10 ACC though.

This applies to Multi hit WS too. Skewer has a 1.25 fTP iirc, but it only applies to the first hit. All sequential hits revert to 1.0 fTP.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-04-05 17:19:16
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They're calculated as if they have an fTP of 1.0, but the gorget doesn't affect them.
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