New HTBF Shinryu 2.0

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New HTBF Shinryu 2.0
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-07-26 14:03:33
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@Skald @Taint ty for confirmation of Doom on Normal. I have done E, D, and VD, but hadn't done any N. Kinda figured (pre-change) that if I was gonna be in a group, we should do at least D, and N isn't a comfy solo to spam the way E is on the jobs I take in.

Edit: Nothing in this game should require repeating 500 times for 1 drop- in particular after this "change" to where those 500 encounters are the value of 1500 encounters for any other battlefield. And it sure doesn't help that most of us will be desiring 2-4 of those drops.

I know my comment will be reacted to with "wut about Omen bodies actually from Omen?" I can respect highly valuable items being rare in the game, but I feel SE has lost the ability to create rarity via difficulty of content, and instead creates a false sense of rarity via bad drop rates repeatedly in the past 4 years.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-07-26 14:18:32
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Make ***hard to get is the best way to keep people, ya know, trying to get it that's the entire premise.

But yeah, like I always say. Progressive systems, even the shitty ones, are the best. when people see progress, instead of random chance it makes them want to complete it... but it doesn't trigger the dopamine hit like the pure gamble of a random drop.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-07-26 14:19:40
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Make ***hard to get is the best way to keep people, ya know, trying to get it

oh I 100% agree. Its their method of creating it hard to get I abhor.
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By joemamma 2021-07-26 14:21:11
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Low drop rates so they can work on new content I mean log on campaign beds.
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-07-26 14:28:38
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I figured they probably implemented the additional mechanics at higher difficulties just like the other HTBF's add in additional mechanics as you adjust the difficulty scale. That's still supports the idea that the HTBF is isolated from its abyssea counterpart. I just didn't notice him opening/closing his wings (he is kind of massive and I associate one of those phases with meteor spam/absorbing damage; so stuff you don't get on easy). It only took me 3 kills to get both of the accessories too, and I wanted both of them for ranger and cor. That's attestation that even on easy the item load rates are reasonably high now.
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By Odin.Kingofthenorth 2021-07-26 14:31:25
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Anyone know if our JP brothers and sister are complaining about this BC? Only way changes will come is if they do.
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-07-26 14:38:20
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Someone mentioned in the thread a page or two back that the JP were just as unhappy about the drop rates as we are. Even that doesn't mean any further changes will happen though. S-E "fixed" it once. It's possible (even likely) they just let it be rather than repeatedly changing it over and over.
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By joemamma 2021-07-26 15:03:59
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I'm not going to spam a 30 merit fight over and over for a 1% drop on a dagger. If you find that fun have at it.

When you've done the fight 500 times with no drop let me know.
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By Malaketth 2021-07-26 15:04:48
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Make ***hard to get is the best way to keep people, ya know, trying to get it that's the entire premise.

But yeah, like I always say. Progressive systems, even the shitty ones, are the best. when people see progress, instead of random chance it makes them want to complete it... but it doesn't trigger the dopamine hit like the pure gamble of a random drop.


I disagree to an extent on your first point but that is certainly the stance SE has taken. If it’s that absurd of a drop rate people will likely just give up doing it which you can see has happened by going out to the zone to give it a try now. I don’t have a ton of time in game as it is why would I do something that is by and large wasted time.

I’ve always been a fan of progression as well so atleast something happens with the time invested.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-07-26 15:07:29
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
@Skald @Taint ty for confirmation of Doom on Normal. I have done E, D, and VD, but hadn't done any N. Kinda figured (pre-change) that if I was gonna be in a group, we should do at least D, and N isn't a comfy solo to spam the way E is on the jobs I take in.

TBH, N didn't feel THAT bad to me to solo (dual box in my case) based on a couple attempts, aside from being prepared to remove Doom. I've done some dual box NIN + BRD + healer trusts, pretty standard melee approach, and managed to survive fine except for Doom sometimes killing me - that's really the only thing that has been tripping me up. I didn't really rely on NIN for anything super vital, it's just my fallback most comfortable melee job - used Migawari, shadows (frequently all wiped), and Malignance gear and pretty much just meleed. Shouldn't be that different of an approach for a variety of melee jobs.

I feel like I just need to make myself a better BRD/WHM Cursna set and NIN Cursna received set, and then I'll be more comfortable with N solo attempts. For survival at least... I guess then it's a decision of whether the longer time to kill (and increased risk over the also relatively simple E fights) is worth it.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-07-26 15:29:42
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thanks for the testimonial @Capuchin. My concern isn't so much for me when I'm solo, but losing all my trusts due to AoE. They take some serious damage, esp when you need to call RDM+BRD to get (sometimes) capped haste vs a real character BRD with 4songs and -DT sets. But I will give it a go just for the sake of trying. ;)
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By Bahamut.Skald 2021-07-26 15:31:28
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Doom

Definitely manageable for solo dnc on normal apart from that where problems arise from spamming waters and/or an ill(well)-timed protostar.

Adds just enough annoyance to a 30 merit ki where I'd rather just hit the E and pray harder to the gods of infinitesimal drop rate when soloing this dude.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-07-26 15:38:36
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
thanks for the testimonial @Capuchin. My concern isn't so much for me when I'm solo, but losing all my trusts due to AoE. They take some serious damage, esp when you need to call RDM+BRD to get (sometimes) capped haste vs a real character BRD with 4songs and -DT sets. But I will give it a go just for the sake of trying. ;)

Yeah I do tend to toss in at least 1 defensive buff (like one +9 Minne V from actual player BRD), so that may give some additional flexibility for trust survival. During the buffed trust campaign I would imagine it's less of a concern.

I also go very heavy on healing trusts. Like, 3+ healers in my 4 trust slots when 2boxing. Generally Monberaux, Ygnas, Selh'teus - and last I tend to do Sylvie, who also tosses some cures (except when I leave for 2 weeks and lose my UC trust...)

I'll probably settle on E for most of my solo/2box farming, but IMO the jump in difficulty from E to N on Shinryu isn't nearly as steep as some high tiers (Lilith in particular) and should be relatively manageable for well geared players. The 2x cost does make it somewhat more appealing to do a longer/riskier fight since it's a little less spammable than the 10-15 point high tiers.

EDIT: MNK could be pretty nice too. Mantra is never a bad thing for Trust survival, low TP feed, solid damage, TH4 with the right gear... I could see myself using that for N, or Malignance THF for E.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-07-26 15:48:14
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
or Malignance THF for E.

one of the great benefits of riding a Vajra on my THF ^^
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By KujahFoxfire 2021-07-26 16:14:09
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Do we think the armor/weapon drop rate is uniform across all difficulties and the only thing that increases with difficulty is chance of slots?
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-07-26 16:35:12
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Quote:
Do we think the armor/weapon drop rate is uniform across all difficulties and the only thing that increases with difficulty is chance of slots?


Yes, that's exactly how we believe it works. The only thing the update did was affect load chance. It did nothing for distribution. They made solo farming more viable and group farming worse.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-07-26 16:37:30
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If you all have the earrings rings and pebbles then only the armor/weapons can load!
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By aisukage 2021-07-26 16:42:39
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joemamma said: »
I'm not going to spam a 30 merit fight over and over for a 1% drop on a dagger. If you find that fun have at it.

When you've done the fight 500 times with no drop let me know.

I got my dagger on my 5th VD with TH 9/10 on each one this was after the change also. Another friend of mine got his between 20-30 fights. Though that was before the change.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-07-26 16:53:49
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Good luck happens sometimes. One of my linkshell members went 1/1 on his first ever solo attempt of "Up in Arms". And we all know how horrible the kraken club load rate is in that battle. Sometime when you play the lottery you win, but that doesn't change the fact the odds favor the house.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-07-26 17:22:56
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Valefor.Furyspawn said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
Gambler's fallacy is not in effect here, because Simon is talking about the combined odds of every run, not the odds of each individual run.

Doing 500 runs of a 0.1% chance drop gives you about a 40% chance of getting it, which is much greater than if you're only allowed to do it once.

That's an excellent example of the gambler's fallacy. Doing 500 runs of a 0.1% chance drop* gives you exactly 0.1% chance of getting it.

*If each roll is random and independent from one another.

You're wrong, but Geriond phrased it poorly. What he meant to say is that after 500 runs, there is a 40% chance you obtained a .1% drop somewhere along the way.
I did not phrase it poorly; my post was quite clear that I was referring to the entire set of runs, not a singular run. Furyspawn was just (purposefully, I hope) ignoring what other people were saying, falsely accusing people of using the Gambler's Fallacy, and using the Law of Large Numbers incorrectly.
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By aisukage 2021-07-26 17:57:34
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Good luck happens sometimes. One of my linkshell members went 1/1 on his first ever solo attempt of "Up in Arms". And we all know how horrible the kraken club load rate is in that battle. Sometime when you play the lottery you win, but that doesn't change the fact the odds favor the house.

Absolutely, Yeah I was lucky on the dagger, Not as lucky as I was when I got full malignance gear in 1 round of 7 runs when I came back to the game after a few months break.

Friend helped me and we did Easy with TH and I didn't realise how lucky I was until I heard from others about their horrible experiences.
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By Shichishito 2021-07-26 18:44:20
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aisukage said: »
Not as lucky as I was when I got full malignance gear in 1 round of 7 runs when I came back to the game after a few months break.
thats extremely lucky but I've experienced some lucky drops myself after returning from breaks. maybe there is some sort of drop chance buff for returning players, but it's probably just a tinfoil hat theory.

could make sense tho, kind of "the first fix is free" strategy.
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By Asura.Aldolol 2021-07-27 12:39:11
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I'm currently like 1/20 on drops, first drop being the cloak I got today. Only done VD so far at TH4 if it even matters. Best revelations for me were being able to lullaby to get setup in place and using Scherzo to avoid my whm dying to vortex due to some weird hp check mechanic.

It really is a terrible system and the 30 points merits thing appears to have done nothing
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By macsdf1 2021-07-27 13:02:28
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I always get the same two items every fight, guaranteed
jack, and ***.
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2021-07-27 15:38:51
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If you guys really want the fight fixed, we're gonna need someone who has 100 accounts and doesn't care about bans to enter the standard shinryu fight over and over again and just sit there and time out with two/three characters automating entry on each server so no one can enter the queue EVER.

I imagine the level of complaining after that would actually make SE do something
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By mhomho 2021-07-27 18:03:56
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You say this like someone didn't already make Odoro. He's not getting killed. He's getting mad.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-07-28 16:25:56
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dont need 100 accounts, just 4-5 for asura and a good entry bot will salt them plenty

(i don't really think people should be using tactics like this to force change though)
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-07-28 16:29:42
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No better way tbh. Exposes the obvious flaw. Put's it on display for everyone to see, unlike emailing square that they can just delete. Irritation is the best motivator.

Well, mass quitting, but yeah.

I mean, it's unfair to hold the entire playerbase hostage like that... but omelet:eggs, be mad that square allows it, not that people exploit it (if anyone grows the balls to actually do it)
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By Shichishito 2021-07-28 16:58:53
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recently heard someone is doing that with titanfall for 3 years by now and still the devs can't or don't care to stop it.
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