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Opinionated History Lessons! Native Americans
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By Asura.Aeonova 2020-01-17 12:06:52
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 12:07:35
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »"they were not a nation of people united"...so because France, Italy, Spain, Germany, and England all occupy a total landmass smaller than Texas and have close to 15 different cultural groups and at the time of American Expansion had at least 5 different formal governments they WERE "a nation of people united" but the Cherokee, Shawnee, Cheyenne, Seminole, and Ute tribes (again, 5 "nations") covered a population almost double them and a landmass over triple the size of Texas, they were just savages? Not to defend Savael, but it is a common misconception for people to make, especially in regards to Native Americans. I mean, it's very easy to see one tribe and assume that they are all the same.
But in reality, and you can even argue that it holds true today, we are all tribal in that aspect in differentiating groups of people. England and France are, in a sense, different tribes, but we are all the same species. The only real difference we have are where we were born and where we claim home.
For instance, I'm a Texan. That means I hold many titles (Texan, South Texan, American, North American, among others) but really, I'm a human. Just like you, just like Savael.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 12:08:20
Why are these topics still open? It's a conspiracy!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 12:11:19
It's hilarious how white nations get all the blame for slavery (even though they are the ones that actually ended it by force) when every single nation and race of people took and used slaves forever previously. Sad part is, we would never stop it either.
If, for some miracle, we were to develop space travel and find life on other planets, I guarantee you that we would be enslaving them at first. Or at least attempt to do so.
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Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-17 12:16:45
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »People tend to romanticize Native Americans, keep in mind they were not a nation of people united and saw themselves that way, nor was there much chance of them becoming anything more than they were. They were a lot of tribes who regularly went to war against each other, took slaves and just brutalized each other and anyone else.
Many of them also took great pleasure in murdering and enslaving the farmers who were trying to make a new life there, when you try to fight your enemy by terrorizing and murdering civilians you're going to incur a massive reaction.
At the end of the day, if the EU nations had no colonized America some other nation would of done it anyway. China, Japan, Middle eastern nations, Russia whoever.
Yeah the myth of the "noble savage" is complete ***. The native Americans were stone age tribes acting like every other set of stone age tribes acted in history. They fought over land, resources and the rights to breed women. Occasionally one great leader would surface and create some sort of coalition that would work for awhile, that leader would die and that coalition would eventually fall back to the practices of stone age tribes.
My respect doesn't come from the stone age part of their lives, but how they fought back despite the ridiculously huge difference in technology and sheer number of pathogens they had running around. Like I said, the Europeans were basically space aliens compared to the native Americans.
So lemme get this straight....
"they were not a nation of people united"...so because France, Italy, Spain, Germany, and England all occupy a total landmass smaller than Texas and have close to 15 different cultural groups and at the time of American Expansion had at least 5 different formal governments they WERE "a nation of people united" but the Cherokee, Shawnee, Cheyenne, Seminole, and Ute tribes (again, 5 "nations") covered a population almost double them and a landmass over triple the size of Texas, they were just savages?
"Many of them also took great pleasure in murdering and enslaving the farmers who were trying to make a new life there"...so you're a murderer if you defend your home against invaders? You do realize that's the function of ANY defender in ANY example of warfare known to man. It was their home. It had been their home for already hundreds of years. And they were just supposed to let people who didn't speak their language, made no attempt to join the existing society present, and didn't respect the current users of that land one bit, just TAKE it? Put down the Kool-Aid.
"They fought over land, resources and the rights to breed women."...let's break this down. "Fought over land (and) resources"- like every war in every part of the world to this day, but that's "stone age"? "rights to breed women"-oh! You mean like during the Spanish Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, and Nazi Germany? Yeah, very refined people in those examples, not like those brown savages. Or like those super advanced Vikings and Northern Brits. Or again- like any other culture around the world doing the exact same things at that time.
"the myth of the 'noble savage' is complete ***"- you're completely right on this one. They weren't savages. No more than their white counterparts, black counterparts, or yellow counterparts anywhere else in the world. The only difference was in weaponry, technology, and architecture.
Don't mix my words in with other posters, it creates a false image of what was said.
When people speak of the Native Americans they speak as though they were single people, which is wrong. There were many many tribes, each tribe fighting the rest for the same ***humans have been fighting over since the dawn of time. Land, resources and breeding rights are things our species has been fighting over since before we were painting cave walls, our cousin species also fight over there things. Today we are still fighting over there things. This statement is to clarify that there was nothing special, noble, mythical or romantic with the native americans tribes. They were no different then the Germanic, Frankish, Celtic or Mongolian tribes.
Yes they were indeed stone age humans, this is not an insult it's a statement of their technological and infrastructure development. Mining, complex metallurgy, large complex structural works, mass farming, and other such developments are things that hadn't yet been developed. Given another thousand years or so and they might very well of developed their own, we will never know. Their southern cousins had developed many of those things are were well into the bronze age when the Spanish visited them. It seems like you took umbrage with a factual statement of who and what the indigenous peoples were, that they were just regular humans like the rest of us.
My deep respect for the Native Americans comes precisely from how they hard they fought, how much sheer determination they showed and how they are even still around despite having such dramatic disadvantages. They were the ultimate warriors and much of US military culture is derived from the influence Native Americans had on us.
Until they either took or traded for that technology, that is.
Being able to use a technology isn't the same as having developed it yourself. When you research and develop something you end up learning a bunch of things on the way to creating a fully working model, those things then have secondary benefits. Many of the technologies we have today are results of research in a completely different field. So while the Native Americans quickly discovered how to use firearms, they didn't have the technology and infrastructure to mass produce their own or make better versions.
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By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-01-17 12:20:50
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »"they were not a nation of people united"...so because France, Italy, Spain, Germany, and England all occupy a total landmass smaller than Texas and have close to 15 different cultural groups and at the time of American Expansion had at least 5 different formal governments they WERE "a nation of people united" but the Cherokee, Shawnee, Cheyenne, Seminole, and Ute tribes (again, 5 "nations") covered a population almost double them and a landmass over triple the size of Texas, they were just savages? Not to defend Savael, but it is a common misconception for people to make, especially in regards to Native Americans. I mean, it's very easy to see one tribe and assume that they are all the same.
But in reality, and you can even argue that it holds true today, we are all tribal in that aspect in differentiating groups of people. England and France are, in a sense, different tribes, but we are all the same species. The only real difference we have are where we were born and where we claim home.
For instance, I'm a Texan. That means I hold many titles (Texan, South Texan, American, North American, among others) but really, I'm a human. Just like you, just like Savael.
I actually completely agree with you, just must have stated it poorly. My hope was to point out how similar the two areas of the world were, and that yes, Europe was just as tribal as the Americas...its just that since history looks at europe's border disputes and expansions as "variations" on the anchor countries of that continent- Germany, Italy, France, England- and it looks at the Native Americans as "disconnected, unrelated tribes constantly at war".
There were large dominant tribes, there were small "family style" tribes. There were treaties between some, wars between others. Border skirmishes were just as common in Prussia as they were in what we now call Florida. The only true differences were in technology and architecture....both "sides" had language, art, history, culture, government...all key parts of a modern society.
**EDIT** @Saevel, you are correct to come at me over combining your quotes with another. If I was to do that again, I at least would have specified who said what. My apologies for causing confusion.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 12:22:06
Being able to use a technology isn't the same as having developed it yourself. When you research and develop something you end up learning a bunch of things on the way to creating a fully working model, those things then have secondary benefits. Many of the technologies we have today are results of research in a completely different field. So while the Native Americans quickly discovered how to use firearms, they didn't have the technology and infrastructure to mass produce their own or make better versions. I agree, but then again, they never had a need to reverse engineer them either.
Remember, rifles were the top technology at the time, and we didn't develop a better way to kill each other until years after. Mainly because there wasn't such a need until we started fighting against each other (American Revolution, 1812, Civil War, etc.)
Clarification Edit: Need to kill each other in regards of Native Americans vs. Colonial Americans.
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Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-17 12:34:40
Being able to use a technology isn't the same as having developed it yourself. When you research and develop something you end up learning a bunch of things on the way to creating a fully working model, those things then have secondary benefits. Many of the technologies we have today are results of research in a completely different field. So while the Native Americans quickly discovered how to use firearms, they didn't have the technology and infrastructure to mass produce their own or make better versions. I agree, but then again, they never had a need to reverse engineer them either.
Remember, rifles were the top technology at the time, and we didn't develop a better way to kill each other until years after. Mainly because there wasn't such a need until we started fighting against each other (American Revolution, 1812, Civil War, etc.)
Military technology is a thing, and in warfare you are constantly trying to outdo your opponents. If the Native Americans had developed far enough to possess firearms, they would of also had rudimentary chemistry, complex metallurgy, advanced military tactics, some advanced construction technologies, a large industrial base, factories, some form of centralized executive government, a standing military, and almost certainly would of repelled those pesky Europeans invading them.
The firearm isn't the point, it's all the stuff required to successfully develop, prototype and mass produce firearms. All the stuff that fueled those european nations colonial expansion.
Modern liberals like to demonize white Europeans (how racist of them), while in reality they were merely the first ones to figure out how to economically cross the Ocean in large boats. Every other civilization in history has practiced some form of colonization, frequently accompanied with extermination or forced integration of the defeated tribe. This goes for every nation of every people on the entire planet. African nations colonized nearby lands, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Chinese, Mongols, Japanese, Vietnamese, Aztecs, Danish, *everyone* did it. Blaming the first ones to figure out how to do it on a massive scale is stupid. If history was revised and the Native Americans had an industrialized society, they would of been the ones to colonize the European lands. How the hell do people think China and Corea came to exist in the first place? Both of these were originally many smaller nations that fought tooth and nail against each other until one conquered and forcibly integrated the rest.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 12:39:08
I think you misunderstand Savael, I agree with you. I just pointed out that the tribes (most likely, although we will never know) never considered military strategy like that. There was no need for them to reverse engineer such technology to make it better, stronger, and cheaper because, well, they didn't consider it.
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By Rooks 2020-01-17 14:01:00
So much to unpack here.
1) If this sort of thread was a good idea - which it is not - it would belong in the P+R section due to the highly charged nature of these topics (and the fact that people can opt out of P+R showing up on the main page).
2) I note that it was not in the P+R section, because it was started by someone who is banned from P+R.
I have locked the thread. If someone can make a very good case as to why I/the mods should spend time patrolling an obvious timebomb like this, feel free to try, but I'm gonna put your odds of that somewhere between "slim" and "none".
To be clear, I don't think anyone's crossed any lines here (haven't fully read the thread), but we all know it's a matter of time so I'm just gonna be proactive about this one.
Since this was mentioned in another thread, I thought it could be a good subject for discussion.
My knowledge on this subject is limited, so I hope somebody opens the discussion a bit and we can go from there.
Please note that all sources are accepted, even those that people do not like. No knowledge is rejected, as long as it's proven or backed up.
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