Puppet Damage In Dynamis Wave 2 And 3

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Puppet Master » Puppet damage in Dynamis wave 2 and 3
Puppet damage in Dynamis wave 2 and 3
First Page 2
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-25 19:20:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lately i have been bringing ranger puppet to dynamis just to unlock the relic upgrades. This also gave me a chance to compare damage and how well it compares to other dd.

Looking at damage unbuffed i cant get over 7k dmg. I expect with the right setup and buffs i should come close to 10-12k. The problem comes when you compare this to other dd who can do 2-3x our damage and spam their weaponskills around 50% faster even if we run full pet:stp setups.

We can all wait for SE to improve ranger puppet damage, but im suspecting the attachment Attuner is not doing enough when content goes over 145. What i am noticing is the higher the content the bigger the gap between ranger puppet and other dd becomes. I am aware the lack of buffs doesnt help the puppet aswell, but the higher the lvl content the more noticable our situation becomes.

If i am wrong and anyone of you have found a way to make the puppet alot better please share your setups.

I am asking people that got their puppets geared well to test this if possible, since just telling SE the attachment isnt doing its job well enough wont make them spring into action. If your testing this please ignore Escha fights, since the buffs in that content put the puppet closer to dd. All i want is a discussion on this hoping this can result in a bug report on the official forum and some small hope they will take this serious.
[+]
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1146
By Shiva.Siviard 2018-11-25 19:30:48
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'm doing a Dynamis-Jeuno run tomorrow on PUP, but I'm usually pulling mobs as PUP tank. I'll see if I can use RNG puppet for a little bit and convince others to pull for a bit.
 Fenrir.Cariboulou
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34
By Fenrir.Cariboulou 2018-11-25 20:06:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pet LS here. Pup usualy rapes these runs but we have 4-12 with us. We never use range pup jusr val/val mixed with a few val/ss. The DPS is where they shine with light skill chains. If you switch a couple to blm frame at wave 1 boss they magic burst 20-60k depending if you have corsairs and geo in party. Wave 2 3 pups using a 1hr will take 40 percent off boss in 3 mins just make sure you surround him and dont all stand in front. Nice thing with the pups if you can stand out of range from the nin type mobs and avitars and just swap on a hybrid dt set may need a dawn or 2 on bosses but there preety sturdy.
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-25 20:27:27
Link | Quote | Reply
 
yeah once you setup for pets you can get alot faster. Still to get a comparision 3 min 40% is a 8 min kill on wave 2 boss?

Dont get me wrong. It is a good killspeed, but compared to dd setups it falls behind. Currently dd setups can kill the wave 2 -n 3-4 min if they are organised with 2hrs. 5-6 min if messy with 2hrs. The puppet setup comes closer due to 2hrs inflating stats. This the same reason we get closer to dd in Reisenjima t4 fights.

Can you give me a number on how much dmg a rng puppet reach in your setup? i want to check a comparison to 1 damage dealer. looking at thw whole wave 2 and 3. not just wave 2 boss. My assumption atm is when a puppet does not get inflated by 2hrs or event buffs we run behind by alot.

Not any critisism to you. Its awesome you guys still got a pet ls going these days. I just want to put us on a more even playing field when we dont rely on 2hrs. Thanks for your response though.
 Leviathan.Stamos
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Stamos
Posts: 1114
By Leviathan.Stamos 2018-11-25 20:42:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Still annoys me a bit the sizable difference in damage between pet jobs. Either they think the attachments are far more powerful than they are, or the usual they have no idea at all
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-25 20:58:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The problem lies within calculations with pet stats. Once the puppet gets alot of stat buffs it grows faster than any damage dealer.This makes it risky for SE to balance pup better. Attachments like attuner are old values and once you get over a certain lvl mob in an event that doesnt give buffs like dynamis the difference becomes greater between puppets and players. They basicly dont give enough enhancements at that point.

I cant speak for bst, but summoner benefits from a better stat modifiers like bp%+ and mab+ on gear. It also helps summoner that flaming crush is a hybrid move. Astral conduit speeds can be emulated by pup with overdrive and a pet stp set, but with lower dmg. Bst i know from past experiences was good, but i suspect the lack of pet stats in their gear hasnt helped them aswell.

I really want to find a way to bring this to SE's attention. The better way would be by providing numbers and proof since SE is running a skeleton crew that does not have the time to test this. We basicly have to do the research for them.
 Leviathan.Stamos
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Stamos
Posts: 1114
By Leviathan.Stamos 2018-11-25 21:34:48
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Well, it's also a mixture of the AI as well. Since it doesn't perform well with multiple other players(non pets)
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1146
By Shiva.Siviard 2018-11-26 12:55:48
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Well, it's also a mixture of the AI as well. Since it doesn't perform well with multiple other players(non pets)

Especially if you have Speedloaders on. PUP won't WS if there's multiple other WS being spammed by the standard DDs.

But then we get yelled at for "ruining skillchains" when we let our puppets WS freely. *shrug*
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 699
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-11-26 13:17:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Siviard said: »
r "ruining skillchains" when we let our puppets WS freely. *


The key to both sides is of course for the puppetmaster to plan ahead and coordinate with group.

If you are in a group where weaponskills will be spammed, don't use Speedloaders.

If you need to make a specific skillchain Plan-for and include the automaton in the skillchain. everytime I see a group complain about puppet interrupting a skillchain I laugh.

Its like fighting an NM, you know it does a really annoying enfeeble, and you do nothing to counter it in your strategy.


Quote:
Well, it's also a mixture of the AI as well. Since it doesn't perform well with multiple other players(non pets)

I can't think of any reason pets wouldn't play well with other players, aside from poor planning and communication in the party.
 Leviathan.Stamos
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Stamos
Posts: 1114
By Leviathan.Stamos 2018-11-26 13:29:01
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You also can't use inhibitors, which is a huge drop off in DPS. In Dyna D with multiple DDs it is a dps loss for them to wait for the puppet to weaponskill instead of just spamming WS/Scing when possible with each other. In lower content with 1-2 dds, sure
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1146
By Shiva.Siviard 2018-11-26 13:34:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Main reason why the OP made his post was because his puppet couldn't break 5.5k dmg on Wave 2 & 3 mobs whereas standard DD were still dropping 20k+

That's a huge discrepancy, and we're wondering if the Attuner attachment seems to lose it's effectiveness on anything above Level 139 content where there are no area buffs like there is in Escha/Reisenjima.

I, personally, haven't had an opportunity to test this, but to be honest, I'm not the best when it comes to pure DD from my Auto as I've always been more focused on the tanking aspect.
 Leviathan.Stamos
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Stamos
Posts: 1114
By Leviathan.Stamos 2018-11-26 13:52:25
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Tanking is really the only thing PUP is great at. When I did w3 on PUP, I ended up just going full master since the Auto was lackluster.
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Falkirk
Guide Maker
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Falkirk
Posts: 466
By Quetzalcoatl.Falkirk 2018-11-26 14:05:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Onionknight said: »
Attuner

Sylph.Braden said: »
Widescan includes mob level for whatever reason and can be used in any area through packets, including zones without maps. Level 99 Mobs are basically divided into three categories:

1. Those added before Adoulin, like Abyssea and VW bosses, who are in fact 100+ and still have level correction.
2. Those in Adoulin, Escha, and now Legion. Also 100+, but those areas lack level correction.
3. Those added after Adoulin but in zones that still have level correction. These ones are always 99 but have the stats of iLvl mobs and usually display content level. Makes for weird situations like WoE enemies actually losing levels when a walk becomes surged.

Also any mob that levels up mid-fight doesn't actually gain levels, it just gets a parameter boost.

Is it possible that Attuner (and similarly Target Marker) have no effect on this content because it's a Level Correction zone where everything is actually Even Match (level 99)? Perhaps someone can verify, if they're familiar with this Widescan method.
[+]
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1146
By Shiva.Siviard 2018-11-26 14:56:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quetzalcoatl.Falkirk said: »
Shiva.Onionknight said: »
Attuner

Sylph.Braden said: »
Widescan includes mob level for whatever reason and can be used in any area through packets, including zones without maps. Level 99 Mobs are basically divided into three categories:

1. Those added before Adoulin, like Abyssea and VW bosses, who are in fact 100+ and still have level correction.
2. Those in Adoulin, Escha, and now Legion. Also 100+, but those areas lack level correction.
3. Those added after Adoulin but in zones that still have level correction. These ones are always 99 but have the stats of iLvl mobs and usually display content level. Makes for weird situations like WoE enemies actually losing levels when a walk becomes surged.

Also any mob that levels up mid-fight doesn't actually gain levels, it just gets a parameter boost.

Is it possible that Attuner (and similarly Target Marker) have no effect on this content because it's a Level Correction zone where everything is actually Even Match (level 99)? Perhaps someone can verify, if they're familiar with this Widescan method.

Never heard of this method before.

Also, I wasn't aware that Dynamis-D was a Level Correction zone. I was under the assumption that all mobs in the zone were Levels 129, 139, then 145. If they're all "level 99" but with stats to mimic that of a Level 139 & 145, then it makes perfect sense why Attuner and Target Marker don't seem to be activating. A terrible oversight by SE here if this is indeed the case.
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-26 15:17:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Target marker is working ok i think. It is just either the values Attuner bring with them are too low on a high lvl mob or the puppet misses alot of other stats. I dont think they arent working at all. Attuner is just showing its old age when you go up against current end game.

The big result i think is the higher the mobs beome in the game, the more we strugle to keep up because the puppet stats with the gear and cor are not enough. This while players van keep up, due to new gear. For puppet we havent had a good gear upgrade in a long while beside accuracy. Damage wise it has been a while.
 Asura.Eiryl
Online
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-11-26 15:18:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Siviard said: »
A terrible oversight by SE Working as intended
 Leviathan.Stamos
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Stamos
Posts: 1114
By Leviathan.Stamos 2018-11-26 15:18:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
We really need an updated Animator. For Meva and stat vomit etc
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1146
By Shiva.Siviard 2018-11-26 15:31:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Shiva.Siviard said: »
A terrible oversight by SE Working as intended

Took a while for an Asura troll to chime in. Honestly, I thought it would happen sooner.
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 699
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-11-26 15:38:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Onionknight said: »
target marker is working ok i think. It is just either the values Attuner bring with them are too low on a high lvl mob or the puppet misses alot of other stats. I dont think they arent working at all. Attuner is just showing its old age when you go up against current end game.

The big result i think is the higher the mobs beome in the game, the more we strugle to keep up because the puppet stats with the gear and cor are not enough. This while players van keep up, due to new gear. For puppet we havent had a good gear upgrade in a long while beside accuracy. Damage wise it has been a while.


This doesn't make sense. the Way attuner and target marker work, they IGNORE a chunk of the enemies Defense and Evasion. That doesn't get worse and level content goes up. That gets BETTER.

That is exactly how to level the playing field. Its like a personal geo-frailty for the pup. It doesn't matter how high its level, if you completely bypass a huge chunk of its defense. you don't need to stack more and more attack if you can reduce its def drastically enough.

Falkirk's Idea (and Braden's) has alot of plausibility.
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-26 15:56:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It would merit some test, but in a 3 day lockout event i dont think my ls will appreciate me doing some science. There isnt any other content at that level i can test it at aswell.

You are right it doesnt make sense xilkk, but i think the % of defence it ignores just isnt cutting it on the higher the mob level. The evasion target marker ignores is still enough though.
 Carbuncle.Papesse
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: Papesse
Posts: 300
By Carbuncle.Papesse 2018-11-26 16:12:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I started to care about DD'ing on SMN in Dynamis few months ago. I have no problem to hit 40~70k Volt Strikes in wave 3 but this is clearly impossible in wave 1&2, best I can get there is 15~20k with 25~35k da/crit spikes on wave 2 bosses/NMs. Further testing lead me to believe that defense down debuffs in general have little to no effect at all in wave 1&2 and in some other contents/mobs as well. The only thing that seems to matter is how much attack we have.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 6417
By Afania 2018-11-26 16:34:07
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
Further testing lead me to believe that defense down debuffs in general have little to no effect at all in wave 1&2 and in some other contents/mobs as well. The only thing that seems to matter is how much attack we have.


Interesting....another SE gimmick nerfing smn(pet) dmg in endgame since there are more attack buff type for melee/ranged DD than pets?
 Leviathan.Kozumi
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Shiyo
Posts: 36
By Leviathan.Kozumi 2018-11-26 17:50:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
I started to care about DD'ing on SMN in Dynamis few months ago. I have no problem to hit 40~70k Volt Strikes in wave 3 but this is clearly impossible in wave 1&2, best I can get there is 15~20k with 25~35k da/crit spikes on wave 2 bosses/NMs. Further testing lead me to believe that defense down debuffs in general have little to no effect at all in wave 1&2 and in some other contents/mobs as well. The only thing that seems to matter is how much attack we have.
Do you mean pets specifically, or for all jobs?
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-26 18:35:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Interesting. I know player dd dont get that weird difference between wave 2 and 3. From my own experience on blu i get around 25k with 30k spikes on wave 2 and on wave 3 around 22k with maybe 25k spikes. This seems more logicly with the higher lvl on wave 3.

I wonder what causes this smn nerf on wave 2.
 Asura.Frod
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 902
By Asura.Frod 2018-11-26 18:39:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
I started to care about DD'ing on SMN in Dynamis few months ago. I have no problem to hit 40~70k Volt Strikes in wave 3 but this is clearly impossible in wave 1&2, best I can get there is 15~20k with 25~35k da/crit spikes on wave 2 bosses/NMs. Further testing lead me to believe that defense down debuffs in general have little to no effect at all in wave 1&2 and in some other contents/mobs as well. The only thing that seems to matter is how much attack we have.


I'm having serious, serious gearswap issues in dynamis. To the point i have to resort to ingame gear sets and macros.

What kind of buffs/debuffs are you using to go that route? I'm underbuffed in my group and i whiff most pacts on wave 3. Aurix, the w3 boss and the fetters are different though. Wave 2 i have some acc issues by myself, but can still hit decent damage.

Jeuno though is flaming crush spam time, if i had even just one source of buffs, i could most likely cap damage on anything wave 1 or 2.
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-26 18:45:07
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Yeah since last months server hardware maintenances Dynamis has a higher ping. In dynamis this is really noticable. Especially in San d'oria i have to turn down settings way low and abilities have a 2-3 sec time to react sometimes.
 Shiva.Onionknight
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Shiva.Onionknight 2018-11-26 19:25:10
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Cariboulou Do you have any parses of your pet ls on a wave 2 boss and a wave 3 boss? Id love to see if what Papesse is seeing is for pup aswell.
 Fenrir.Cariboulou
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34
By Fenrir.Cariboulou 2018-11-26 19:36:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I dont unfortunately i can scoreboard next time we go full pets but with the current event its been a corsair 1 shot fest on statues for drops with a mix of dd's. But without the overdrive the wave 2 boss takes quite a bit longer as you asked earlyer. On my initial post i see where you had the confusion. 3 pups = 40percent off boss in 3 mins we bring 4-10 pups usualy. So it dies very very quickly. Also we dont have any ranger pups. Just a few hybrid for armor shatter off of bone crusher for defense down and light.
 Carbuncle.Papesse
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: Papesse
Posts: 300
By Carbuncle.Papesse 2018-11-26 19:40:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It concerns every jobs but SMN is obviously one of the most affected by these mechanics. Melees are less impacted because they have a ton of ways to enhance their attack.

Asura.Frod said: »
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
I started to care about DD'ing on SMN in Dynamis few months ago. I have no problem to hit 40~70k Volt Strikes in wave 3 but this is clearly impossible in wave 1&2, best I can get there is 15~20k with 25~35k da/crit spikes on wave 2 bosses/NMs. Further testing lead me to believe that defense down debuffs in general have little to no effect at all in wave 1&2 and in some other contents/mobs as well. The only thing that seems to matter is how much attack we have.


I'm having serious, serious gearswap issues in dynamis. To the point i have to resort to ingame gear sets and macros.

What kind of buffs/debuffs are you using to go that route? I'm underbuffed in my group and i whiff most pacts on wave 3. Aurix, the w3 boss and the fetters are different though. Wave 2 i have some acc issues by myself, but can still hit decent damage.

Jeuno though is flaming crush spam time, if i had even just one source of buffs, i could most likely cap damage on anything wave 1 or 2.
Beast Roll and Glyphic Doublet +3 mainly (Avatar Critical Hit Rate stat is essential), I don't need anything to cap acc in wave 2.
In wave 3 I need Drachen Roll, Torpor and Shiromochi to cap on Volte leaders, I could live without Drachen but then I would have to sacrifice Relic body. I also make sure a GEO open with BoG/EA Frailty at start of each Volte group.
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [64 days between previous and next post]
 Caitsith.Mahayaya
Offline
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
user: Trebold
Posts: 3258
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2019-01-29 08:31:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Looking for some thoughts on a Dyna-wave 3 strat with 2x PUP.

x2 tank puppets pull both groups off the Circles. They target a weak mob and don't use flashbulb or strobes and deploy. The PUPs then move off and bring the mobs and supertank the adds. The rest of the alliance aggros the circle and DDs kill asap.

Once the Circle is down, people move into position away from the killed circle near the next circle. Once in position, have a tank flash one of the PUPs' target. Immediately have the PUP deactivate so the horde doesn't follow to the group. The hope is that since the puppet was supertanking the adds they'd walk back to the old circle spot. People then kill the weak mob. Do the same for both puppets then move on to the next circle until all circles are destroyed.

Thoughts? Only reason I say to kill and not just to deactivate is to keep the Puppet Masters themselves alive.
First Page 2