Pup AoE-Alliance Damage (Bug?)

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Pup AoE-Alliance Damage (Bug?)
 Quetzalcoatl.Senaki
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By Quetzalcoatl.Senaki 2018-07-25 08:43:56
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Good morning everyone,

So for the longest time I have seen people taking advatage of a situation whereas if a Pup is alone in an alliance, and his automaton has enmity, only the Pup and himself will take AoE damage should it occur. For an example, 2x people in a party together within an alliance (pup and Drg) along with a full separate party, only the Drg and Pup would take any AoE damage.

For content such as Neak, or Gin, people have been using this mechanic to avoid having to worry about healing magic or their melee jobs taking damage. I myself have taken advantage of this strategy, but I am wondering if SE made it this way by mistake or if it was unintentional. Any ideas?


Thank you,
Senaki.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-07-25 08:48:18
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Everything square does is "working as intended" even when it's not. 100% accidental that this works. They also don't know how to fix it just like the pet tp move bug.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-07-25 09:59:46
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I'm going to hypothesize this, but am going off of old experience from way back. This was created like this, probably not intentionally, but likely due to the way they implemented and coded pets in relation to being part of the alliance. This is not new, it's been around since as long as Ballista IMO.

Basically, the pet is viewed as being in his own party(alliance) with the master, as an extention of the player and not in the actual alliance in itself.

i.e - alliance has 7 people in it -
(Party alliance starts here {WHM WAR PLD GEO BRD COR} / <--aoe shared between--> (Pet alliance starts here {PUP} party alliance stops here) <----{Pet}* Pet alliance ends here )

* = has hate

If the master is not in party with other players, and the pet has hate, those other players never receive "alliace-wide" damage, unless the master happens to be in the same party with other players, because the pet's party is the subject of the attack, and the extended party is just the master.

When an aoe move targets the pet, it only is able to hit the pet's "alliance", which is only the master (and whoever else happens to be in the party with the master/pet). The moment the target switches to the master, everyone joined to the master (the pet and the alliance; 2 "alliances") receives damage because the master is connected to both "alliances". If the target aoe switches to the main party, it will hit both the master (an extension of the main party) and the pet (which is an extension of the master himself)

tl;dr - The pet is in an alliance with the master, but not directly linked to the main group. The master is connected to both groups, so any aoe damage on the main group or master will also hit the pet, but not the same in reverse.

If that sounds confusing, its probably because it was an accidental bug that is now just an exploit. That's how I've always viewed it
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-07-25 10:32:18
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in order to change this, they would probably make it so some buffs affected pets that they don't want to affect pets.

...which they have struggled with over the years..

was so much fun when dnc samba/waltzes helped pets.


Hey, I'd be all in favor of losing this niche-useful tanking option and gaining player buffs applicable to pets :D
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By zaxtiss 2018-07-25 12:16:08
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does this only work for pup or all pet jobs?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-07-25 12:37:32
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It works for any pet job. However, you're hardly going to find a scenario where this works for DRG because Wyvern's can't accumulate hate in this manner to matter. You can exploit this on BST and SMN certainly, since they have such a high damage potential to maintain hate.
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-07-25 16:06:02
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I'm pretty sure this is the same reason you can sack pull w/ a pet.
 Quetzalcoatl.Senaki
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By Quetzalcoatl.Senaki 2018-07-26 15:35:49
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I didn't realize that it worked for Drg too. All I need is for SE to give me a "Snarl" like effect so I can transfer enmity to my wyvern. xD
 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2018-07-26 15:54:58
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Wow, this feature sounds amazing. PUP tanking was already good but this sounds like it could really help me out with some fights!
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2018-07-26 16:36:07
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Yeah, we used to use this for Omen IIRC. It's great for the any mob who uses Meteor, helps you use pet setups without a dedicated healer.
 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2018-07-26 19:08:28
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
Wow, this feature sounds amazing. PUP tanking was already good but this sounds like it could really help me out with some fights!

Maha yet lives!!!
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By clearlyamule 2018-07-26 22:35:42
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
in order to change this, they would probably make it so some buffs affected pets that they don't want to affect pets.

...which they have struggled with over the years..

was so much fun when dnc samba/waltzes helped pets.


Hey, I'd be all in favor of losing this niche-useful tanking option and gaining player buffs applicable to pets :D
I miss being able to shellra my pets
 Quetzalcoatl.Senaki
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By Quetzalcoatl.Senaki 2018-07-29 13:32:23
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clearlyamule said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
in order to change this, they would probably make it so some buffs affected pets that they don't want to affect pets.

...which they have struggled with over the years..

was so much fun when dnc samba/waltzes helped pets.


Hey, I'd be all in favor of losing this niche-useful tanking option and gaining player buffs applicable to pets :D
I miss being able to shellra my pets

Wasn't that done via casting AoE spells on August -> being applied to pets? I seem to remember my Tiger getting Phalanx out of it lol.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-07-29 13:48:59
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
Wow, this feature sounds amazing. PUP tanking was already good but this sounds like it could really help me out with some fights!

PUP tanking was never about reducing damage, the pet is already practically invincible. The issue has been holding hate as the robot is basically a super gimp PLD. So if your strategy revolves around using extremely low hate jobs, then a PUP tank works, if even a single entity generates normal enmity then the robot is going to lose hate easily.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-07-29 13:53:22
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That's not entirely true with heyoka set being out. Yeah, they're no match for a real tank, but they can hold hate against slightly above average dd. Provided no single target resets.

Held the don from the goblin ambuscade surprisingly well against "Good dd" by asuran standards
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-08-02 11:13:01
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: ยป
Wow, this feature sounds amazing. PUP tanking was already good but this sounds like it could really help me out with some fights!

PUP tanking was never about reducing damage, the pet is already practically invincible. The issue has been holding hate as the robot is basically a super gimp PLD. So if your strategy revolves around using extremely low hate jobs, then a PUP tank works, if even a single entity generates normal enmity then the robot is going to lose hate easily.

Please figure out what you are talking about before you spread misinformation.

1. Mahayaya rightly understands that this technique of putting pup tank into separate party, helps reduce damage taken by OTHER party members from AoE spells and JA's.

2. Your spreading false information about pup holding enmity.
Heyoka set has made holding enmity MUCH more effective on pup.
furthermore, Trulusia's thread about pup tanking is YEARS old and it already had techniques for Capping out Automaton's enmity and KEEPING it there. These techniques are largely unneeded now, but they have been readily available for years.

So you keep spouting that Pup tank can only hold hate in low enmity situations and you are dead wrong. You don't 'know what you are talking about, so stop spreading false information.
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