Pet Stuff On Kenkonken

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Pet stuff on Kenkonken
 Shiva.Malthar
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By Shiva.Malthar 2017-10-25 13:45:07
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Why doesn't Kenkonken grant any pet bonuses? Yes, the aftermath affects the pet as well, but that's it. Shouldn't it give a bonus to maneuvers?

Aymur gives pet attack bonus and Nirvana has BP damage + and Avatar level +2.

But Kenkonken has nothing for the pet.

Strange, huh?
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By clearlyamule 2017-10-25 13:56:58
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Back when it was made overloading was a real concern so a huge boost to making that happen was pretty amazing. Now it's basically nothing
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-10-25 15:17:52
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
Yes, the aftermath affects the pet as well, but that's it.

"That's it"???

The puppet only gets OA2-3x aftermath, a unique buff that makes it the single strongest piece of automaton DD gear in the whole game. That aspect is precisely what makes KKK PUP's best overall (master+puppet) damage weapon - even though the DMG on the weapon itself isn't the best for the master, the massive buff to puppet DD outweighs that (assuming a DD puppet and ability for master to maintain AM3 by meleeing). And of course, if you can keep AM3 up, it's also the best weapon for a solo pet.

Saying KKK does "nothing for the pet"? That's just crazy talk. That being said, to try to give your argument as much credit as I can:

1) I get that Aymur and Nirvana, the most comparable Mythics, give the pet aftermath just like KKK, but also buff pets in other ways (Nirvana pet level+2, perp cost, BP damage; Aymur Pet Attack Bonus and Sic/Ready TP Bonus). PUP's "comparable" additional pet buff is the overload reduction which is of minimal use these days.

Still, I think even that can be rationalized by PUP being better able to melee alongside the pet, and getting additional master buffs on the weapon itself than BST SMN didn't get anything comparable to on their Mythics. KKK does have the biggest Martial Arts amount on any item in the game - we all know that can be a double-edged sword with capped magical haste and excess MA causing a reduction in TP/hit, but it's also a massive DPS increase if you aren't getting max attack speed buffs.

And not to get too off track, but the ideal answer there is just getting rid of the MA TP/hit reduction once you hit capped delay, leaving KKK's MA+50 with no downsides (while it sometimes adds very little/nothing, it never hurts and sometimes adds a ton of DPS when not getting good buffs, slowed, etc.). Though, good luck with that, since people have been clamoring for years about changing DW's similar mechanics for the same reason with S-E showing zero interest in making a change.

2) I see the point that even though KKK helps a DD puppet, it does very little for tanking or spellcasting automatons. If for that reason you wanted to say KKK should also add some tanking/casting oriented pet stats, I could buy that as a plausible discussion. Maybe toss some Pet:DT- on there (which really helps all frames, but especially tanking), Pet:HP&MP, or some magic stat... Personally, I'm not really bothered by the best DD weapon not hitting all of those categories, but it's not unreasonable to consider.

So, I get the idea that it wouldn't necessarily be unfair to add pet level+ or maneuver effect+ on KKK. But I also see the other side, it's already the job's best DD weapon so it doesn't really NEED more buffs.

clearlyamule said: »
Back when it was made overloading was a real concern so a huge boost to making that happen was pretty amazing. Now it's basically nothing

For the most part yeah, minimal advantage today. But it does retain a niche use in being able to spam ice maneuvers if you ever wanted to use LOLSpiritreaver. Even now, that can be a dangerous proposition without more overload reduction from weapon. That being said, it's not even unique any more with Midnights being nearly as good for overload reduction - and arguably better for pure nuking (i.e. nukes only, master not meleeing) due to the maneuver effects +2.

It's even true that for tanking, especially on a fresh puppet with initial activate overload burden and 1min duration maneuvers, you CAN still manage to overload on fires or lights now. Still, that's pretty well remedied by Cooldown alone, and certainly not a major selling point of KKK.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2017-10-25 15:28:40
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Kenkonken should at least have maneuver effects +3 and/or inc acc/att/macc/matt for the pet. I don't know about pet level plus. There already is the back and range piece to increase the pet level.
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By clearlyamule 2017-10-25 15:38:35
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I'll counter that the am3 does isn't always the bees knees.

Basically when you already rocking a ton of DA so like OD with coilers or if you like me still use skirmish gear for mixed for pure auto mixed tank/dd sets and using ws where tp bonus on h2h can be really nice. Or you companion's rolling. Really a shame it doesn't work with ranged attacks/ws

YOu know what I'd really like that would make me use it... make the AI not take forever to decide to do things. God watching it wait till it has 2000 tp to ws is painful
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-10-25 17:30:44
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
Kenkonken should at least have maneuver effects +3 and/or inc acc/att/macc/matt for the pet.

Why should it have more? It's already the best weapon for master/pet physical DD (and got better just a couple months ago with the significant DMG increase). I have zero issue with KKK not being the absolute best weapon for all purposes - it already has its very significant niche as the top DPS weapon.

For tanking, I'm fine using my Ohrmazd (Midnights and Condemnders are also reasonable options).

For master-only DD, Godhands and Verethragna are there.

For nuking, Pet:Macc/MAB augmented Condemners exist.

Personally, I have zero issue with Kenkonken the way it is. Kinda think the request to buff it more is a little unreasonable.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2017-10-25 18:12:46
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BST vs PUP in raw pet/master DD
BST wins by a huge margin, every time.
That is why.

Without a petcor PUP is useless.
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2017-10-25 18:31:48
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That's because H2H weaponskills suck. They seem to be afraid to increase the dmg on the Automaton because it has a lot of utility, even if that utility is based off 75 cap.
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 Sylph.Elwynbelwyn
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By Sylph.Elwynbelwyn 2017-10-25 20:33:58
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I would have been happy with just more acc. Back when I was soloing job points I had to switch to the JSE weapon against apex mobs because its 119 version had that extra acc, and I was whiffing so much with KKK. When acc isn't an issue, KKK is fun to keep juggling that AM.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-10-25 23:04:11
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
BST vs PUP in raw pet/master DD
BST wins by a huge margin, every time.
That is why.

Without a petcor PUP is useless.

Well, BST can't reliably tank most of the major endgame content of the past 2 years, and PUP can... so there's that. I don't think comparing well geared BST and expecting PUP to match that is fair, since BST is designed to basically just do damage.

Kenkonken is what it is. Best DPS weapon for a job that's not really designed to be a top tier DD. Not that it makes PUP a totally lost cause for adding some damage, but if you're taking the position that "[___ DD job] does more damage than PUP, that means you need to buff PUP's RMEA weapons"... well, I don't really agree with you.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-10-27 01:45:15
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
I don't know about pet level plus. There already is the back and range piece to increase the pet level.

Also... thought about this today, and why is having existing pieces to increase pet level a reason you couldn't also do Automaton: Lv+ on a Mythic?

SMN has higher level pets with max gear:
* i119+ from ammo (same as PUP)
* Lv+1 from Ambuscade cape (same as PUP)
* Lv+2 from Nirvana

Why not the same thing for PUP? Honestly, if you want to ask for a pet buff, Lv.+ is the best way to help ALL types of automatons. If I was to suggest any one buff to Kenkonken to help pets, this would easily be it.

As for the DD discussion, Stamos really nailed it. The issue with PUP competing as a DD isn't an issue with a single weapon. It's a systemic thing due to H2H's relative weakness in the WS department. Buff H2H WS on par with other strong DD WS, and you're competitive. Shouldn't really be a case of PUP only competing with ONE possible weapon, it should be more comparable across the board - non-RMEA PUP in a similar spot to non-REMA [other job], Mythic PUP comparable to RMEA [other job], etc.

That's assuming S-E agrees that PUP *should* be able to compete with other jobs in the DD realm. I don't think they believe that to be the case. I'm kinda OK with that, since the job is both an adequate second tier DD as well as being an excellent tank.
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By Teuphist 2017-10-29 12:20:23
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
BST vs PUP in raw pet/master DD
BST wins by a huge margin, every time.
That is why.

Without a petcor PUP is useless.

Well against a single target, BST will lose without 1hr if the PUP properly builds the Automaton. Particularly against VE puppet or 3-hit build Sharpshot. In an AOE situation, hands down to the BST.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2017-10-29 13:28:01
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Shiva.Malthar said: »
I don't know about pet level plus. There already is the back and range piece to increase the pet level.

Also... thought about this today, and why is having existing pieces to increase pet level a reason you couldn't also do Automaton: Lv+ on a Mythic?

SMN has higher level pets with max gear:
* i119+ from ammo (same as PUP)
* Lv+1 from Ambuscade cape (same as PUP)
* Lv+2 from Nirvana

Why not the same thing for PUP? Honestly, if you want to ask for a pet buff, Lv.+ is the best way to help ALL types of automatons. If I was to suggest any one buff to Kenkonken to help pets, this would easily be it.

As for the DD discussion, Stamos really nailed it. The issue with PUP competing as a DD isn't an issue with a single weapon. It's a systemic thing due to H2H's relative weakness in the WS department. Buff H2H WS on par with other strong DD WS, and you're competitive. Shouldn't really be a case of PUP only competing with ONE possible weapon, it should be more comparable across the board - non-RMEA PUP in a similar spot to non-REMA [other job], Mythic PUP comparable to RMEA [other job], etc.

That's assuming S-E agrees that PUP *should* be able to compete with other jobs in the DD realm. I don't think they believe that to be the case. I'm kinda OK with that, since the job is both an adequate second tier DD as well as being an excellent tank.


Are you suggesting Kenkonken should get pet level +1 or +1? I like that idea.

Stamos, make it happen.
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By sequdaz 2018-06-04 14:54:04
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I'm considering building a Kkk for my pup but interested to see a Kkk pup overdrive zerge something like Kirin or WoC.
Kkk without AM3 loses significantly to almost any other h2h option :/
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-06-04 16:19:58
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I don't know of anyone successfully using pup Zerg on Kouryu or WoC
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By Teuphist 2018-06-19 07:56:11
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
I don't know of anyone successfully using pup Zerg on Kouryu or WoC

Likely due to the player base being stuck in their ways and not even giving it an attempt.

However, I do believe there was a PUP LS on another server which had done this to clear full aeonic minus WoC (you might know though since that shell was on Quetz).
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2018-06-19 11:24:42
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Teuphist said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
I don't know of anyone successfully using pup Zerg on Kouryu or WoC

Likely due to the player base being stuck in their ways and not even giving it an attempt.

However, I do believe there was a PUP LS on another server which had done this to clear full aeonic minus WoC (you might know though since that shell was on Quetz).

B00typirates did almost all of them, but we still used BLMs for a few mobs where it just wasn't efficient to try and kill them with pets.

Kouryu could perhaps be killed by a legion of OD'ed puppets, but WoC is essentially impossible because they have no real way to stop SPs AND it ignores pet enmity, or perhaps has incredibly fast enmity decay for pets.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-06-19 13:43:03
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Teuphist said: »
Likely due to the player base being stuck in their ways and not even giving it an attempt.

However, I do believe there was a PUP LS on another server which had done this to clear full aeonic minus WoC (you might know though since that shell was on Quetz).

I was part of b00typirates (major pet ls) when Aeonics came out. I'll ask Falkirk if he doesn't come here and comment himself, but I'm pretty sure they didn't take'em down like that.

I wasn't part of the group doing WoC and Kouryu at the time, because I had not finished getting cp and gearing up since returning to the game. but I'm pretty sure they gave up on pet style on Kouryu after several attempts. Granted, this was also before accuracy adjustments and geo adjustments iirc.

pet style works for alot of stuff. works for several T4's (and I don't mean AC burning) but it doesn't work for all the T4's. Schah and Albumen being notable exceptions. Kouryu and WoC being the others.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to pet style all of them, but I think things like time limits and hp-scaling are very much not in favor of pet style.

Automatons tank well any of the t4's, but trying to use them to Kill Zerde, Erinys, or Onychophora will not work. you must time the big damage with a precision you can't really manage on pup.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-06-19 13:45:23
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LOL, I had that reply written up and couldn't press submit for an hour or so!

Tru! you're alive!! when are you coming back! We miss you!
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2018-06-19 14:08:37
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
Automatons tank well any of the t4's, but trying to use them to Kill Zerde, Erinys, or Onychophora will not work. you must time the big damage with a precision you can't really manage on pup.

Ony was actually really easy to tank with PUP. The automaton's WS were weak enough that they didn't really make a difference IF they went off, and you could dump TP easily enough Tactical Switch. PUP actually made a pretty great tank as there was basically no danger for the Automaton.

Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
Tru! you're alive!! when are you coming back! We miss you!
Maybe this Winter, for sure next summer since I will have the summer off. Turns out a Ph.D is a lot of work.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-06-19 14:14:54
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sure, you can tank all of them w/ pup. I wasn't clear. I meant that killing Onycho w/ pup wouldn't work because of the freaky absorb patterns.

Keep up the good work on the Ph.D!
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2018-06-20 09:04:45
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
sure, you can tank all of them w/ pup. I wasn't clear. I meant that killing Onycho w/ pup wouldn't work because of the freaky absorb patterns.

Keep up the good work on the Ph.D!

Ahh, I misread. My apologies. I actually think they probably COULD kill Onycho and Eryinas. You'd need a COR with Companions for TP gain, then triple fire Flameholder Arcuballistas. Wouldn't be better than just using BSTs, but I suspect it'd still be doable. Interestingly on topic, KKK would actually be useful for that specifically.
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By Teuphist 2018-06-20 16:53:33
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Maybe this Winter, for sure next summer since I will have the summer off. Turns out a Ph.D is a lot of work.

Happy to see you're checking up on things in here..still hoping all you PUP players come over to Asura one day.

Thank you for the correction on what was killed.
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By Carbuncle.Kyawind 2018-06-21 23:23:31
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hmmmm looking into getting a KKK for my brother's character... any luck on whats going on in carby right now xilk ?

came back to the game a week ago lol
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-07-13 16:01:19
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I'm on Quetz now Kya, and welcome back!

I dunno whats going on in Carby.

how long were you gone? I've been back about 3 yrs now. after being gone for 3 yrs.

Kenkonken not hard to do solo now. Any Relic/Empyrean/Mythic is totally soloable. just a matter of how you want to farm it.
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By Carbuncle.Kyawind 2018-07-15 08:56:41
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im on carby~

i beengone for 3yrs too LOL, and ya half way on kenkonken for minifish

kid seems very happy we zerging through alot of stuff and all

style lock is amazing i can look kool on bst again :D