Seeking In Depth Empyrean Weapon Discussion

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Seeking in depth empyrean weapon discussion
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-07-14 03:55:53
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Seeking out owners of AG'ed Gandiva and/or Armageddon. Looking for your experiences with these weapons versus other Ranger RMEAs in comparable situations, as well as how you gear them differently than typical gearing due to the power of their AM3s.


As anyone who plays RNG seriously knows, the job is very addicting when it comes to RMEAs due to their variances, and the itch to have one in this category is growing strong...even with my disdain for abyssea. I'm not looking for "this is better than that" type comments, or thoughts on Relics/Mythic/Aeonics versus Empyreans....I'm strictly looking for how actual users of these unique weapons are getting the most out of them, and how they do it.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-07-14 04:26:14
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Nerf Smn!
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By Blazed1979 2017-07-14 08:34:01
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I'm doing Gandiva because as far as I can tell it is the highest dmg out of all the bows.
I think Armageddon is one of your weaker choices for guns.
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By Ruaumoko 2017-07-14 10:45:40
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Armagaeddon's problem isn't that the gun itself is bad, it's just that Death Penalty beats it for Leaden Salute, Gastraphetes beats it for Trueflight and Fomalhaut soundly beats it for Last Stand.

I'm only doing mine to AG stage because it's been sitting at Lv85 for years and I wouldn't feel too good if I just left it there.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-14 11:36:52
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Ruaumoko said: »
Armagaeddon's problem isn't that the gun itself is bad, it's just that Death Penalty beats it for Leaden Salute, Gastraphetes beats it for Trueflight and Fomalhaut soundly beats it for Last Stand.

This take misses the fundamental point that a HUGE part of the benefit to Empy ranged weapons is not WS damage, but triple damage crit procs (which feel like a mini-WS of their own on every proc). 50% ODT is massive. Empy does require you to approach RNG a little differently, and focusing on an AM-up ranged crit set is the absolute most important aspect of using the weapons. It's not nearly the same damage split as other weapons that are heavily weighted toward WS though.

I think Empy have really come into their own fairly recently, since we now have such easy access to so much great crit gear (and just having a ton more AGI in general on current 119 gear also helps). To some extent, a lot of people solidified their opinions on Empy based on remembering how it was in the past, before the bounty of Crit and AGI gear options, and before the change to 50% ODT that came with the 119 afterglow update.

Armageddon
While Armageddon may not be your BEST Last Stand/Trueflight option, it's still good for both (and makes WF more viable for damage, which is nice when using WF for the strong SC utility it brings to the table), and it absolutely crushes any other marksmanship weapon for ranged attacks.

Also, get outta here with Death Penalty/Leaden talk in the RNG forum ;) Seriously though, it is nice that, in contrast to most ranged RMEA, Arma and Fomalhaut are usable on two jobs - being able to use Arma on RNG *and* getting access to a very good COR weapon (even if not the ideal one for a situation, a top 3 gun is a top 3 gun) made it a lot easier for me to stomach the cost.

Gandiva
Gandiva's thing is crazy good physical damage - potentially the highest DPS RNG weapon on a large portion of fights. Again, requires gearing for AM-up crits to get the most out of the weapon. There are two fairly substantial downsides to Gandiva though:

(1) Zero flexibility, it's physical/JR or bust - that stings compared to marksmanship weapons with access to both Last Stand and TF/WF

(2) It's almost the anti-Annihilator in that enmity management can be a real issue, more so than any other ranged weapon. Even the non-Anni marksmanship weapons have the benefit of magical WS generating far less hate. The huge AM/crit damage spikes can be another point of issue here - normally when you have that "sense" that the tank's hate is tenuous you can hold off a little and not unleash a massive WS at the wrong time, but when you're using empy and you get a double shot with 2x crit procs... whoooo boy.

However... that's when Decoy Shot is down. It's a little bit of a double edged sword, since when Decoy is UP, the much stronger /ra from Empy make it far BETTER than other options. Honestly, if you have multiple Empy RNGs, staggering Decoy can really be great for stapling hate to a tank throughout, while not having to accept the lower damage output of Anni. Like someone (Celebrindal?) said in the main forum thread, can require a bit of "retraining" tanks on positioning - if that's viable (i.e. they don't have to stand back to a wall to deal with knockback or something)


Edit:
Also, not that it hasn't been said before, but ugggghhhh DEX+50 on Gandiva is annoying. If only JR was an AGI mod... Remember that it's not just about WS mod damage, but the substantial benefits of additional Racc and Ranged Crit from AGI (and like we said, ranged crit is kinda super important for this weapon). Doesn't make Gandiva a weak weapon by any means, it's still very strong. But to think of what could have been... That being said, it's awfully nice to have AGI+50 on Armageddon!

(and to put my NIN hat on, WHY can't we trade Blade: Hi/Kannagi and JR mods... DEX+50 offhand Kannagi would be killer, AGI+50 offhand Kannagi is trash)
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-14 12:32:48
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Ruaumoko said: »
Armagaeddon's problem isn't that the gun itself is bad, it's just that Death Penalty beats it for Leaden Salute, Gastraphetes beats it for Trueflight and Fomalhaut soundly beats it for Last Stand.

I'm only doing mine to AG stage because it's been sitting at Lv85 for years and I wouldn't feel too good if I just left it there.

Wouldn't that make it the Penultimate weapon.

:D
 Odin.Drakenv
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-07-14 12:51:11
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Seeking out owners of AG'ed Gandiva and/or Armageddon. Looking for your experiences with these weapons versus other Ranger RMEAs in comparable situations, as well as how you gear them differently than typical gearing due to the power of their AM3s.


As anyone who plays RNG seriously knows, the job is very addicting when it comes to RMEAs due to their variances, and the itch to have one in this category is growing strong...even with my disdain for abyssea. I'm not looking for "this is better than that" type comments, or thoughts on Relics/Mythic/Aeonics versus Empyreans....I'm strictly looking for how actual users of these unique weapons are getting the most out of them, and how they do it.
Anni:if I'm ever asked to go ranger that's what they ask for out of my weapons.
Yoichi:have it because I use to Sam/rng with my Amano but I havent been able to use it mainly on rng for awhile but acc wise it's great for me on high Eva stuff.
Armageddon:my first emp AG. I have fun with it a lot and I notice my last stands haven't been too bad. I will say I'm not allowed to pew pew on certain NMs because I seem to get hate pretty easy. Then again usually when I'm in a group it's cor buffs only ;(. I did notice nice quick draw damages but at the end of the day I've I've never tried it in rng per anni and wanted to try because of the agi for last stand.

Gandiva: been pondering making one but after research and other rngs it's great but since I already have yoichi I've been informed yoichi was better per the acc. But there's my two cents
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By Blazed1979 2017-07-14 13:31:20
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I'm getting max 2-3 rounds of ranged attacks before ws'ing on any content I bring RNG to. Doesn't that diminish both Gandiva and Armegedon's competitiveness? Less ranged attacks to weapon skill = less importance of Empyrean AM.
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 Odin.Drakenv
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-07-14 13:39:10
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Blazed1979 said: »
I'm getting max 2-3 rounds of ranged attacks before ws'ing on any content I bring RNG to. Doesn't that diminish both Gandiva and Armegedon's competitiveness? Less ranged attacks to weapon skill = less importance of Empyrean AM.
Gives you a cookie!
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-14 15:04:59
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Odin.Drakenv said: »
Anni:if I'm ever asked to go ranger that's what they ask for out of my weapons.

Armageddon:my first emp AG. I have fun with it a lot and I notice my last stands haven't been too bad. I will say I'm not allowed to pew pew on certain NMs because I seem to get hate pretty easy.

Especially when Anni is requested by non-RNGs, I feel like this is often due to outdated thinking from the most recent previous time that a PLD + RNG setup was common prior to the enmity system changes (like, when everyone was doing VD AAs and the meta of the time was PLD WHM RNG and BRD/COR supports).

That's not to say Anni doesn't still have a place, but that's more commonly the case in pre-ilevel zones (i.e. master trials, VD high tiers, high level UNMs) which don't have the same enmity mechanics as ilevel areas. If you're talking Omen, Escha, Ambuscade - it's considerably easier to manage hate.

As noted before, Decoy Shot and mixing in the use of magical WS (which are considerably lower enmity than Last Stand/Jishnu) can help a lot in enmity reduction. You really should be able to do more damage on not-Anni and still be OK on hate for the majority of current content.

Quote:
Gandiva: been pondering making one but after research and other rngs it's great but since I already have yoichi I've been informed yoichi was better per the acc. But there's my two cents

If you already have one RMEA bow, I agree that it is a bit of a hard sell to say you should make another.

That being said, if acc isn't an issue, Yoichi can often be overcapping accuracy and that obviously isn't doing anything for you. Gandiva/JR is going to give much stronger WS with that DEX+50, and AM3 for much better /ra damage. So if you're able to maintain adequate racc with Gandiva (quite conceivable, given RNG's copious Racc not even considering weapon) those benefits can - and probably usually would - outweigh Yoichi's higher dmg and racc advantage.

Also worth noting that if you really wanted to use bows to their fullest, mixing and matching RMEA ammo can be the ideal use case. I'd wager that the vast majority of the time, using Yoichi's Arrows is the third place option for a Yoichi user by a significant amount. But yeah, the idea making an ultimate weapon just for ammo does give me some degree of heartburn :P

Artemis Arrow (Gandiva): DMG:101 Ranged Accuracy+25 Ranged Attack+35
Yoichi's arrow: DMG:89 Ranged Accuracy+35 Ranged Attack+25
Chrono Arrow (Fail-Not): DMG:110 Ranged Accuracy+20 Ranged Attack+20

Blazed1979 said: »
I'm getting max 2-3 rounds of ranged attacks before ws'ing on any content I bring RNG to. Doesn't that diminish both Gandiva and Armegedon's competitiveness? Less ranged attacks to weapon skill = less importance of Empyrean AM.

Your logic does make some sense. But:

Gandiva/JR still provides really powerful WS damage, so the "weaker WS" argument is really focusing more on Arma.

At 50% OAT, accounting for Double Shot, you're still probably adding a couple OAT procs per WS cycle even when shooting at 1000tp. While Arma is a bit behind Gastra (TF) and Fomal (LS) for WS damage, it's not so far behind that AM3 procs can't make up the difference - and WSing less frequently can be the best option. Especially so with Double Shot up, though I've seen some people assert that not WSing at all with AM3 up in certain situations might be ideal (IDK that I'm convinced without seeing more concrete numbers, but waiting on WS to 2000+ when Double Shot & AM3 are up seems to me like a good balance).


Also worth considering that Arma has an advantage over Fomalhaut/Gastra in higher ranged accuracy (especially over Fomalhaut if you aren't mixing and matching RMEA ammo). Though, like the Yoichi discussion, whether you can take advantage of that depends on the situation.

Arma: AGI+50 (i.e. Racc+37.5) and Racc+35 from Devastating Bullet
Fomal: nothing on the gun, Racc+20 from its Chrono Bullets
Gastra: Racc+20 from weapon, Racc+30 from Quelling Bolts
 Odin.Drakenv
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-07-14 15:18:15
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Odin.Drakenv said: »
Anni:if I'm ever asked to go ranger that's what they ask for out of my weapons.

Armageddon:my first emp AG. I have fun with it a lot and I notice my last stands haven't been too bad. I will say I'm not allowed to pew pew on certain NMs because I seem to get hate pretty easy.

Especially when Anni is requested by non-RNGs, I feel like this is often due to outdated thinking from the most recent previous time that a PLD + RNG setup was common prior to the enmity system changes (like, when that's what everyone brought to VD AAs).

That's not to say Anni doesn't still have a place, but that's more commonly the case in pre-ilevel zones (i.e. master trials, VD high tiers, high level UNMs) which don't have the same enmity mechanics as ilevel areas. If you're talking Omen, Escha, Ambuscade - it's considerably easier to manage hate.

As noted before, Decoy Shot and mixing in the use of magical WS (which are considerably lower enmity than Last Stand/Jishnu) can help a lot in enmity reduction. You really should be able to do more damage on not-Anni and still be OK on hate for the majority of current content.

Quote:
Gandiva: been pondering making one but after research and other rngs it's great but since I already have yoichi I've been informed yoichi was better per the acc. But there's my two cents

If you already have one RMEA bow, I agree that it is a bit of a hard sell to say you should make another.

That being said, if acc isn't an issue, Yoichi can often be overcapping accuracy and that obviously isn't doing anything for you. Gandiva/JR is going to give much stronger WS with that DEX+50, and AM3 for much better /ra damage. So if you're able to maintain adequate racc with Gandiva (quite conceivable, given RNG's copious Racc not even considering weapon) those benefits can - and probably usually would - outweigh Yoichi's higher dmg and racc advantage.

Also worth noting that if you really wanted to use bows to their fullest, mixing and matching RMEA ammo can be the ideal use case. I'd wager that the vast majority of the time, using Yoichi's Arrows is the third place option for a Yoichi user by a significant amount. But yeah, the idea making an ultimate weapon just for ammo does give me some degree of heartburn :P

Artemis Arrow (Gandiva): DMG:101 Ranged Accuracy+25 Ranged Attack+35
Yoichi's arrow: DMG:89 Ranged Accuracy+35 Ranged Attack+25
Chrono Arrow (Fail-Not): DMG:110 Ranged Accuracy+20 Ranged Attack+20

Blazed1979 said: »
I'm getting max 2-3 rounds of ranged attacks before ws'ing on any content I bring RNG to. Doesn't that diminish both Gandiva and Armegedon's competitiveness? Less ranged attacks to weapon skill = less importance of Empyrean AM.

Your logic does make some sense. But:

Gandiva/JR still provides really powerful WS damage, so the "weaker WS" argument is really focusing more on Arma.

At 50% OAT, accounting for Double Shot, you're still probably adding a couple OAT procs per WS cycle even when shooting at 1000tp. While Arma is a bit behind Gastra (TF) and Fomal (LS) for WS damage, it's not so far behind that AM3 procs can't make up the difference - and WSing less frequently can be the best option. Especially so with Double Shot up, though I've seen some people assert that not WSing at all with AM3 up in certain situations might be ideal (IDK that I'm convinced without seeing more concrete numbers, but waiting on WS to 2000+ when Double Shot & AM3 are up seems to me like a good balance).


Also worth considering that Arma has an advantage over Fomalhaut/Gastra in higher ranged accuracy (especially over Fomalhaut if you aren't mixing and matching RMEA ammo). Though, like the Yoichi discussion, whether you can take advantage of that depends on the situation.

Arma: AGI+50 (i.e. Racc+37.5) and Racc+35 from Devastating Bullet
Fomal: nothing on the gun, Racc+20 from its Chrono Bullets
Gastra: Racc+20 from weapon, Racc+30 from Quelling Bolts
Grr I thought calabog would be my last AG weapon
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-14 15:20:24
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Odin.Drakenv said: »
Grr I thought calabog would be my last AG weapon

LOL... I mean, if you have Anni Arma Yoichi, you've got plenty of respectable RNG options and surely something that will do well in any ranged situation.

But... it's addicitive, yeah. Make em all? XD
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-07-14 15:22:52
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Odin.Drakenv said: »
Grr I thought calabog would be my last AG weapon

LOL... I mean, if you have Anni Arma Yoichi, you've got plenty of respectable RNG options and surely something that will do well in any ranged situation.

But... it's addicitive, yeah. Make em all? XD
Yes :(
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-14 15:32:03
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*Warning: slight COR tangent in the RNG forum!*

As to the Arma Racc advantage... It's a thing for RNG to consider, but perhaps worth noting that it's an even more significant point for COR. COR is working with lower Racc anyway due to lack of all of RNG's traits, Sharpshot, gear (much of which is the same, but not all) - so you're more likely to need to stack Racc gear. On top of that, the weapon/ammo Racc breakdown for COR's gun choices is HEAVILY in favor of Arma:

Armageddon: AGI+50 (i.e. Racc+37.5) and Racc+35 from Devastating Bullet
Fomalhaut: nothing on the gun, Racc+20 from its Chrono Bullets
Death Penalty: no Racc on gun or Living Bullets

If you play both jobs, it's worth considering that Arma is at the very least adding a lot of Racc that could situationally be really important for COR.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-14 15:37:44
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Blazed1979 said: »
I'm getting max 2-3 rounds of ranged attacks before ws'ing on any content I bring RNG to. Doesn't that diminish both Gandiva and Armegedon's competitiveness? Less ranged attacks to weapon skill = less importance of Empyrean AM.

TP Bonus +500 raise's LS's damage by ~20% and also adds the L3 light / radiance property. AGI +50 is +42 base DMG but Arma only has 143 Base DMG vs Form's 167 Base DMG so a good chunk of the WSC bonus is watered down. I get Form about 17~18% stronger LS averages then Arma, and that's assuming using Chrono bullets on both, if Arma use's Devastating then it's over 20% in favor of Form.

So it boils down to how much your shooting damage adds vs your WS damage. The less shots in between WS's the stronger Forma becomes compared to Arma. The *best* is so damn situational that it's impossible to state definitively. Also a very important point of note is that you need to use a 3K Wildfire for Arma to be useful and considering you most likely have physical damage buffs / bubbles for LS spam then your basically wasting 3K for ***damage.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-14 16:11:44
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Agreed that it's very much situational.

For instance, need to consider whether you're able to WS at will at 1000tp, or if you're going to be able to get extra /ra rounds in (e.g. waiting for a SC partner). When I'm part of a controlled SC (say, fighting Fu), I find I frequently get time to squeeze in a bonus /ra round or two, depending on Double Shot/Relic hat procs. That tends to improve Arma/Gandiva's standing a bit for that particular situation.

I take a little bit of an issue with the assertion that having to use WF every few minutes for AM is "***damage". It's not THAT much of an overall hit - even without magical buffs, WF is still a respectable WS when geared right. It's yet another point to consider though, and it is true that it can be annoying to have to mix a WF in if you're doing a Light SC with someone. I find that a much bigger concern than the actual WS damage from using a slightly weaker WS, what, ~10% or less of the time?

For Gandiva, it's nice in some sense that it's generally "all JR all the time". Same WS you use for SC will be the one you use for the occasional AM3 re-trigger. But, of course, that comes with the downside of less SC flexibility.
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By Blazed1979 2017-07-14 17:37:54
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
I find I frequently get time to squeeze in a bonus /ra round or two, depending on Double Shot/Relic hat procs.
I'll give you that, but that lead is reduced when you consider Mythic will be able to squeeze in more due to less delay, and Anni will be able to squeeze in just as many. Anni also has decent hidden/added + AM. So while I can understand a slight lead generated in that squeeze in favor of Empyrean, I don't think its worth noting as significant.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-07-14 20:07:47
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Quelling Bolts are easily the most broken ammo in the game. 30 racc,30ratk,30macc,30mab, and a tasty "Barrage +1" just to be silly. SE was very smart to put this kind of power on a crossbow bolt so we can't use it on other weapons.

I sincerely appreciate the legitimate discussion with these two weapons (Gandiva and Armageddon) and hope that its helping others as much as its helping me.
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-07-14 20:41:59
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My goal was to get capped gil again for the 5th time...now it's "maybe I should get a gandiva...." :anger!;
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-14 21:38:08
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
I take a little bit of an issue with the assertion that having to use WF every few minutes for AM is "***damage". It's not THAT much of an overall hit - even without magical buffs, WF is still a respectable WS when geared right.

It's damage is ***in comparison to Last Stand when your using Geo-Frailty / Fury / ect.. instead of Geo-Maliase / Acumen. Maybe 20~30% of the damage that a 3K LS would do. Now if you switch bubbles up then that changes, but then your shooting damage goes way down. It's the same problem Gastra has. When your AM3 activation WS is magic but your primary damage WS is physical, then the activation WS is going to be a huge *** damage sink. It's not a knock on Wildfire, that WS can be quite powerful, it's being forced to use a magic WS when your primary buffs and debuffs are physical. If the target is high end (Schah / Vini / ect..) then WS is likely to be resisted which further reduces it's damage. We were doing Schah with RNG's and the Arma RNG's activation WS did 1~2K damage vs his 15~20K LS's on the adds.
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By Afania 2017-07-14 23:03:12
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
I'm strictly looking for how actual users of these unique weapons are getting the most out of them, and how they do it.


I am not a RNG so idk if my opinion would be any help, but since you asked for experience, I guess everything counts.

Arma to me is more of a WF weapon instead of physical damage weapon. AM3 crit rate build is strong, no doubt, but the lack of SC and more sets to manage means fomalhaut is my preferred weapon for last stand spamming. If SC damage is irrelevant, Arma with strong AM3 set beats fomal on parse(tested in a more controlled environment) and spreadsheet. More so if you're RNG instead of COR, because RNG gets deadaim, COR doesn't.

When I use it, I tend to "cheat" a little to get 3k tp faster - such as wings/sleep potion/regain gears before engage.

Staying alive is absolutely crucial for Arma users. Armageddon's dps takes time to proc catch up. When you parse against equally geared and aggressive fomalhaut users, they tend to pull ahead in first min or so, unless you start with 3k tp. Once you get AM3 up and start critting like crazy, Arma slowly catch up on parse. If you die before AM3 wear, you'd ended up being way behind on parse because you never have enough time to catch up on dps.

If you die with a fomalhaut, you just get up and shoot again.

Arma is also harder to use in a sense that offensive JA must be stacked with AM3 to get the most out of it. Any mistimed JA usage means Dps lose. This is less of an issue with fomalhaut since the ideal play style for fomalhaut is just tp until 1000 then ws.

I personally don't like to manage too many things at once since I manually swap every gearsets, so I find Arma very challenging to use because I don't have scripts taking care of every little detail and play perfect all the time.

That being said, if you are confident with gear/AM3/optimal JA rotation management and SC isn't relevant, give Arma a try. It does have higher theoretical dps ceiling than fomalhaut, after all.

Magical WS wise, COR can use mab bullet with an arma and self buff with fireshot+allies roll, this isn't the case for RNG. So I can understand WF isn't preferred WS on RNG with an arma. Otherwise WF spamming with an arma is a lot stronger than most player give them credits for.

WF self darkness by itself, and fireshot boosts it's damage, Leaden/TF can't can't self SC nor gets QD damage boost. If target takes equal damage from all elements WF spamming with allies roll actually beats leaden with dp.

If I'm spamming WF with strong mab buffs I usually use allies+wizards roll and Tp in 4 hit build to maintain back to back WS with triple shot. If I need some acc or dmg leans toward SC dmg less, I use wizard+sam roll and tp with AM crit set. There are lots of ways to build tp sets for WF with Arma because depending on targets and buffs, it's tp/ws/SC split can be pretty varied.

RNG can't use mab bullet nor buff with fireshot/allies roll though, so WF spamming with an arma is probably not as strong for RNG.

Overall I think it's a nice situational weapon. It's by no means bad, but it's not like Idris or caladbolg that's just one tier above other alternatives in a omgsoawesome way. I like mine, because I like to have every tool(gears) available when the situation calls for it.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-07-15 01:31:35
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Asura.Saevel said: »
It's damage is ***in comparison to Last Stand when your using Geo-Frailty / Fury / ect.. instead of Geo-Maliase / Acumen. Maybe 20~30% of the damage that a 3K LS would do. Now if you switch bubbles up then that changes, but then your shooting damage goes way down. It's the same problem Gastra has. When your AM3 activation WS is magic but your primary damage WS is physical, then the activation WS is going to be a huge *** damage sink. It's not a knock on Wildfire, that WS can be quite powerful, it's being forced to use a magic WS when your primary buffs and debuffs are physical. If the target is high end (Schah / Vini / ect..) then WS is likely to be resisted which further reduces it's damage. We were doing Schah with RNG's and the Arma RNG's activation WS did 1~2K damage vs his 15~20K LS's on the adds.

If you see a Gastraphetes user using ANY weaponskill over Trueflight, they're not doing it right. That weapon is purely used for its magical weaponskill, and should only be used in fights where you're riding Trueflight....only exception might be to self chain Last Stand-> Trueflight=Light. If you are even going to consider using a physical weaponskill, and you want marksmanship...its Fomalhaut or Annihilator all day.

Don't jump into a discussion on Ranged Weapons when the only one you have is from Aeonic rounds and you ran out of other quality Aeonics to pick. Run back to the trollbridge, and see the post from Alfania right below yours for the proper way to discuss something.
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 Bahamut.Soraishin
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By Bahamut.Soraishin 2017-07-15 01:35:02
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By geigei 2017-07-15 01:57:08
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I see Arma like rdm job, if you plan making only one weapon...is good in every situation but doesn't excel in any. Gandiva is just for career/completition.
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By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 04:50:57
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I think things need a bit more context here - saying that Gastraphetes is only good in situations geared towards magic isn't accurate. Gastraphetes is good at everything and excels exceptionally well above the others in situations where you need magic ws dmg, and blows everything away when the target(s) are weak to light.
Gastraphetes still competes in other scenarios, and if the RNG using it is well geared and aggressive, they can still bring out great results. Same RNG using Anni or Form will do better, sure. But its not a "Only use Gastraphetes in this situation" otherwise it "sucks". It doesn't. Its an overall great weapon.

Anyways back on topic - I'm doing both Gandiva and Armageddon right now. Man do I hate having to do these lottery NMs..
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-07-15 12:18:16
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Blazed1979 said: »
I think things need a bit more context here - saying that Gastraphetes is only good in situations geared towards magic isn't accurate. Gastraphetes is good at everything and excels exceptionally well above the others in situations where you need magic ws dmg, and blows everything away when the target(s) are weak to light.
Gastraphetes still competes in other scenarios, and if the RNG using it is well geared and aggressive, they can still bring out great results. Same RNG using Anni or Form will do better, sure. But its not a "Only use Gastraphetes in this situation" otherwise it "sucks". It doesn't. Its an overall great weapon.

Anyways back on topic - I'm doing both Gandiva and Armageddon right now. Man do I hate having to do these lottery NMs..

Oh I do agree that Gastraphetes is an incredible weapon, and is certainly acceptable on Last Stand. Its my go-to choice unless Trueflight is going to be junk, then its Fomalhaut unless I'm ripping hate too easily or need Darkness over Light, then its Anni. My reason for making the statment "use Gastra in this situation only" is that when you have better options, you should use them. If I have the option to Fomalhaut when I'm riding Last Stand, I'd be a fool not to. Another reason for me to use it(gastra) is if I want to ride Camouflage, Gastra is a great tool with AM3 up, only surpassed by Anni AM when it comes to my current arsenal.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-15 14:52:19
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Afania said: »
When I use it, I tend to "cheat" a little to get 3k tp faster - such as wings/sleep potion/regain gears before engage.

Staying alive is absolutely crucial for Arma users. Armageddon's dps takes time to proc catch up. When you parse against equally geared and aggressive fomalhaut users, they tend to pull ahead in first min or so, unless you start with 3k tp. Once you get AM3 up and start critting like crazy, Arma slowly catch up on parse. If you die before AM3 wear, you'd ended up being way behind on parse because you never have enough time to catch up on dps.

If you die with a fomalhaut, you just get up and shoot again.

These are good points, as is the rest of Afania's post, but worth noting that (for either Empy or for Gastra) Barrage is one RNG advantage in maintaining AM3 that COR doesn't have. Yeah, your Barrage can always whiff on one of the first shots and get that familiar sad feeling - but far more often than not, Barrage will net you an instant 2k+ TP so you can be back at 3000 and AM3 very quickly.

If I'm doing, for instance, an Omen run with Arma... It's easy to enter the boss floor with 3k TP held, pop off a WF at the start for initial 3min of AM3. Once that wears, Barrage/WF to reapply. For fights long enough that the second AM3 wears, well, third activation actually needs you to build TP (or use a wing or something), but you can be back to Barrage for 4th one, and so on.

This does mean I sit on Barrage sometimes, usually having it in my pocket for a minute or so instead of using ASAP. That is admittedly some degree of lost Barrage and follow-up WS DPS (realistically, over the course of a fight that probably means... 0-2 less Barrages than a RNG who wasn't concerned with AM3, depending on fight length), but alleviates the annoyance of building TP for AM maintenance and prevents downtime from AM3 not being up - which would be a bigger DPS loss for the Empy/Mythic user.

Quote:
Arma is also harder to use in a sense that offensive JA must be stacked with AM3 to get the most out of it. Any mistimed JA usage means Dps lose. This is less of an issue with fomalhaut since the ideal play style for fomalhaut is just tp until 1000 then ws.

You know, reading this I realized something about my psychological engagement with FFXI might be at play here too. I actually enjoy having stuff to fiddle with more than just get 1000tp+WS.

When I first started back in 2004, MNK was my main. Once PUP was released, I moved to that as "my job", in large part precisely because it was still a lot like MNK with the punching, but added more active stuff to do during a fight than just get make sure JAs are up, get 1000tp, and WS. I also had more fun leveling ranged COR way back then (when I leveled to 75, it was mostly COR/RNG shooting for TP!) than I did with RNG, because that way of playing COR was "like RNG, but with more stuff to do" - predominantly, keeping up a 4 buff rotation (with shorter Phantom Roll durations than we have today) in addition to shooting.

So, perhaps ranged empy speaks to that same part of my brain that enjoys having more to mess with :)

geigei said: »
I see Arma like rdm job, if you plan making only one weapon...is good in every situation but doesn't excel in any.

This is not a bad way to look at Arma overall. It's truly a jack-of-all-trades gun. The "it's always at least very good" aspect (and usability on two jobs) is why I made mine.

- great Racc
- best /ra and crit set potential
- solid performance on all useful WS (though not the #1 option on LS/TF - I'd say Arma is 2nd place for both)
- very flexible with multiple viable WS options, depending on mob weaknesses and SC needs (as in, as opposed to physical oriented bows)
- usable for multiple jobs

I'd say Geigei's analysis isn't totally accurate in that Arma does have areas in which it excels: Racc, RA/crit, and WF. But arguably those wins are in less important categories than being the #1 option for the best physical and magical marksmanship WS, as Fomal and Gastra respectively are.

The issue is that Fomalhaut has a similar profile as a good all-arounder for both RNG and COR. As Afania mentioned, Arma has a higher DPS ceiling when used to its fullest potential, but Fomal is generally easier to use. At the end of the day though, both are good in similar situations.

It's also worth considering that I personally don't play with a group capable of cranking out a lot of Aeonics, and Fomalhaut wasn't my priority. I could just make my Arma on my own time. If you run with a group that can spit out Aeonics like candy, perhaps it makes more sense for you to take the Fomal and invest your RME time and money into something with a more substantially different purpose than Armageddon.

geigei said: »
Gandiva is just for career/completition.

Perhaps, but worth noting that Gandiva does have clear cases where it's the #1 option: physical damage JR spam, assuming you don't need Yoichi racc.

To be fair though, Yoichi is a lot cheaper for your bow options and is useful in similar situations (though, like Fomal/Arma, with different play styles). Yoichi can also be the better choice if you need the mega Racc, or free you up to need less Racc in other slots or from food.

If you're just making one RMEA, seems to me to be a better choice to go marksmanship for the flexibility of not being restricted to physical WS. But if you're hooked on making multiple ranged RMEA, there's an argument for Gandiva's niche.
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By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 15:54:03
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I think I can confidently say Yoichi Sucks for RNG =/
I think its the first Relic I regret AGing. And I have Amano.
They can both sit on my SAM for nostalgia purposes only.
I'm only doing Gandiva because I hate not being able to use Bow on my RNG without being absolutely blown away by other RNGs using xbow and Gun and I like keeping things fresh and mixing it up every now and then.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-15 16:11:56
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
If you see a Gastraphetes user using ANY weaponskill over Trueflight, they're not doing it right.

Umm the context was using a magic WS for AM3 activation and then using a Physical WS for damage, Gastra does have LS so it's something someone might actually try. Yes using Gastra for LS is probably a bad idea if someone has something better. That's outside the subject being discussed and just you stirring ***up.

Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Don't jump into a discussion on Ranged Weapons when the only one you have is from Aeonic rounds and you ran out of other quality Aeonics to pick. Run back to the trollbridge, and see the post from Alfania right below yours for the proper way to discuss something.

What I said was factually correct, stop trying to be an internet thug and win internet points.
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By Afania 2017-07-16 15:00:16
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
- great Racc

Now that you mentioned racc aspect, I decided to look into tp sets for them after SU3/ambuscade +2 release:

Fomalhaut triple shot up tp set
Base racc: 1182
ItemSet 348585

Armageddon AM3 triple shot up tp set
base racc: 1277
ItemSet 351883

On my spreadsheet Armageddon has 6%~7% more dps and nearly 100 more base racc. Using racc swaps for fomalhaut tp set to match armageddon tp set racc widen the gap. More so in escha with temps. RNG should get more out of it really.

Tbh, if Fomalhaut doesn't SC with itself(which often worth 20%~30% of my own damage) I'd use armageddon all day, lol.
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