Where Does Puppetmaster Currently Stand?

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Where Does Puppetmaster currently stand?
 Asura.Kaitaru
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By Asura.Kaitaru 2017-07-11 16:31:43
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Been meaning to ask this question for some time now while collecting gear/building WS sets and after finishing my 4th set of Herc (just starting my augmenting process on the sets -____-). My TLDR question is how does a KKK III AG PUP parse with Heavy/light DD's when it isn't given the option of tanking? The question was going to be asked eventually as a returning player I've been making a good income from ambuscade. Granted I am aware that ambuscade does not reflect how the rest of content works in FFXI it still does well to frustrate me with every month being a fight with adds... Due to the very anti PUP tank nature of Ambu I've taken up RUN, finished +1-ing all my sets and put together DT/DTDD hybrid sets and while the job felt meh at 0 JP the level of fun started increasing upon getting to 500+ JP with Temper. This brings me to the current predicament as I just finished bringing my 4th coalition to legend.

The question comes down to Epeolatry or KKK-

Most people will immediately call me crazy and tell me just to go Epy and use RUN as a meal ticket into getting all those awesome PUP accessories from Omen and to merc and sell drops with my small L/s I made. One of my biggest issues since I came back is I suffer from an identity crisis when I'm playing PUP. This is mostly because I play with a small group of friends. One plays RDM or COR, one plays Aegis PLD/Rag DRK/Geared BLU and SMN(only when favorable for SMN) with another friend that plays a very geared Almace BLU and SCH with a GEO mule in tow(because of course everyone has a GEO..).

Many will be quick to notice my party makeup doesn't favor pet classes and I understand that PUP is a Pet class that has good synergy with other pet classes. Unless the NM we are fighting has Doom/Death or some other deadly effects I always play on RUN and even in niche situations my PUP tank is used I suffer from Emnity issues (considering getting a full Heyoka set -_-) given my groups melee jobs parse very strongly. Makes me wonder how PUP tanks Omen but that could be me doing it wrong so that's a question I could throw out there too if you guys don't mind. My RagAG DRK friend is more than willing to tank on PLD but for doing Difficult on Ambu and most NM's being more favorable to burst with High SC's and classes that parse really hard. This doesn't help when I've been parsing higher numbers from playing RUN than my PUP(granted I was missing a bit of gear and borked my lua so I still need to test this) when we were doing last months AMBU on difficult.

Coming to the conclusion PUP just doesn't fit into the setup my friends play and my last option to see how PUP fairs from a pure DD standpoint. Considering that I can get some decent augs on herc for TP/WS and obtain a KKK IIIAG what kind of numbers could a PUP bring in setups with COR and GEO buffs/debuffs compared to other REMA players? This factors me being that person that doesn't consider H2H ever getting buffed at this point. In most situations getting my RUN ergon makes more sense but if I can bring the numbers we can do just as well all the while playing the job I truly love (most important reason). Realistically I don't think Ill have the patience for making a KKK after grinding a Epy up is my reasoning.
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By Ruaumoko 2017-07-11 16:45:46
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All it's going to take to 'reasonably' fix PUP for melee setups is for Pummel, Smite, Howling and Raging Fists to all get buffed. Hand-to-Hand damage is actually good if you're only looking at melee auto-attacks, it's when WS's get thrown into the mix that things get unbalanced.

I'd say Epeolatry anyway. KKK isn't as useful, especially since having more MA when Haste capped actually hurts you.
 Asura.Kaitaru
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By Asura.Kaitaru 2017-07-11 16:49:20
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Ruaumoko said: »
All it's going to take to 'reasonably' fix PUP for melee setups is for Pummel, Smite, Howling and Raging Fists to all get buffed. Hand-to-Hand damage is actually good if you're only looking at melee auto-attacks, it's when WS's get thrown into the mix that things get unbalanced.

I'd say Epeolatry anyway. KKK isn't as useful, especially since having more MA when Haste capped actually hurts you.
That's more or less the conclusion I started coming to myself. Even if I was in a Pet Linkshell there is still only niche situations where I could build AM3 up for my auto. Makes me really wish that KKK just had a native OAT just for the pet to make the Mythic passively provide power like Aymur and Nirvana >.>. Think this is the main reason I procrastinated for so long to build KKK. I mean with RUN I could always get a Lionheart if I really wanted to DD too, feelsbadman.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2017-07-11 17:36:30
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Ruaumoko said: »
All it's going to take to 'reasonably' fix PUP for melee setups is for Pummel, Smite, Howling and Raging Fists to all get buffed. Hand-to-Hand damage is actually good if you're only looking at melee auto-attacks, it's when WS's get thrown into the mix that things get unbalanced.

I'd say Epeolatry anyway. KKK isn't as useful, especially since having more MA when Haste capped actually hurts you.

IIRC Kenkonken's MA is special and does not impact tp return. unless that has been changed, :( or i am crazy i cant find where i got that info from now
 Bismarck.Nariont
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By Bismarck.Nariont 2017-07-11 17:42:09
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its always worked as normal MA, it just never matered til round 95~ cap came around.

and hey KKK has that amazing use in you not overloading, thats neat right? But really Epeo's the way to go as far as III, the additional hits help for VE's WS dmg and overall TP gain but epeo is just all around great, specially at III
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2017-07-11 18:03:54
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:/ i couldn't find a post this old on bg that mentioned kenkonken but here is one from zam...which is apparently still around.

The Goods...Kinda
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-11 18:15:26
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The thing about KKK is that it doesn't show its true benefit if you just consider the relatively unimpressive master DD. The real value is in providing AM3 OA2-3x to the master AND the puppet, and that's pretty obviously why the base damage was designed to be so low on afterglow 119. As our pets have gotten stronger and stronger with pet buffs, level+1, and some truly good gear... an OA2-3x puppet can be really significant.

Honestly, the master itself is almost a glorified "support" for the puppet, triggering that AM3 and letting the puppet pull the majority of the load (a reversal of where things used to be). That's a little bit of an exaggeration, as the master contribution from H2H and Pummel isn't nothing (you can really do some rapid fire Master->Puppet "self" SCs with AM3 up on both master and puppet)... but I think you understand the point I'm getting at.

That being said, even though KKK can allow you+pet to hang at the level of other competent RMEA DDs, if a bit lower (the heavier the player-focused buffs, the more advantage to other DDs), KKK is at best going to make you respectable but nothing amazingly special compared to other DD jobs. Does give you the flexibility to contribute if you are in one of those "any melee DD will do" situations though, and without even having to go change jobs if you were tanking (where I still use my PUP by far the most frequently).

However... if they ever do just straight up boost H2H damage that isn't just a MNK-specific buff, KKK PUP might become REALLY ridiculous. We're talking top tier DD if that ever happens, but obviously that's purely speculation. If S-E was smart about fixing MNK they would give MNK some job-specific buffs (traits, JA adjustments, etc.), because a simple H2H WS buff could get PUP seriously overpowered. I'm kinda hoping they aren't smart about it though :)

Asura.Kaitaru said: »
Makes me really wish that KKK just had a native OAT just for the pet to make the Mythic passively provide power like Aymur and Nirvana

That really would be ideal in today's FFXI. The issue with AM3 is that, even in situations where you want to go "pet DD only" by using a relatively disposable puppet with the master standing back safe, you have to get in to fire off that 3k TP WS to get rolling.

Still, when you can manage to get AM3 up there's nothing better for the puppet DPS than Mythic aftermath.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-07-11 19:55:29
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Pup turns out the damage when automaton closes skillchains with 2x speedloaders and 2-3 fire maneuvers up.

Master is pretty much a skillchains opener for pet when it comes to do. If you can coordinate that with party,, which is not hard as long as ppl are willing.
 Asura.Kaitaru
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By Asura.Kaitaru 2017-07-11 19:55:36
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
The thing about KKK is that it doesn't show its true benefit if you just consider the relatively unimpressive master DD. The real value is in providing AM3 OA2-3x to the master AND the puppet, and that's pretty obviously why the base damage was designed to be so low on afterglow 119. As our pets have gotten stronger and stronger with pet buffs, level+1, and some truly good gear... an OA2-3x puppet can be really significant.

Honestly, the master itself is almost a glorified "support" for the puppet, triggering that AM3 and letting the puppet pull the majority of the load (a reversal of where things used to be). That's a little bit of an exaggeration, as the master contribution from H2H and Pummel isn't nothing (you can really do some rapid fire Master->Puppet "self" SCs with AM3 up on both master and puppet)... but I think you understand the point I'm getting at.

That being said, even though KKK can allow you+pet to hang at the level of other competent RMEA DDs, if a bit lower (the heavier the player-focused buffs, the more advantage to other DDs), KKK is at best going to make you respectable but nothing amazingly special compared to other DD jobs. Does give you the flexibility to contribute if you are in one of those "any melee DD will do" situations though, and without even having to go change jobs if you were tanking (where I still use my PUP by far the most frequently).

However... if they ever do just straight up boost H2H damage that isn't just a MNK-specific buff, KKK PUP might become REALLY ridiculous. We're talking top tier DD if that ever happens, but obviously that's purely speculation. If S-E was smart about fixing MNK they would give MNK some job-specific buffs (traits, JA adjustments, etc.), because a simple H2H WS buff could get PUP seriously overpowered. I'm kinda hoping they aren't smart about it though :)

Asura.Kaitaru said: »
Makes me really wish that KKK just had a native OAT just for the pet to make the Mythic passively provide power like Aymur and Nirvana

That really would be ideal in today's FFXI. The issue with AM3 is that, even in situations where you want to go "pet DD only" by using a relatively disposable puppet with the master standing back safe, you have to get in to fire off that 3k TP WS to get rolling.

Still, when you can manage to get AM3 up there's nothing better for the puppet DPS than Mythic aftermath.
Think I'll need to do some more research on how the Puppet holds hate on heavy DD's unless PUP tanks Omen bosses with other pet classes. At this point it comes down to hoping that H2H gets fixed. Not sure if thats worth all the time making AG Mythic at that point. Sadly for me there aren't really any meta classes I enjoy other than maybe COR or possibly SMN. RUN could really be fun and make me realize the fun of 2H DD's.
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-07-11 20:09:32
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(Outside perspective) Pup is pretty amazing, can hold hate exceptionally well. Only problem with Omen is hate resets on some of the NM's. Other than that, you will not peel hate off an automaton. Idr anytime with the exceptions of the resets that I ever pulled hate off Tramp (Stamos's)
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-11 21:04:50
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Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
(Outside perspective) Pup is pretty amazing, can hold hate exceptionally well. Only problem with Omen is hate resets on some of the NM's. Other than that, you will not peel hate off an automaton. Idr anytime with the exceptions of the resets that I ever pulled hate off Tramp (Stamos's)

IDK about all that... Even with Strobe x2, Optic Fiber x2, and 2-3 Fire Manevuers it can still be rough holding hate off very strong melees. Nukers/pets is pretty easy though.

That being said, we DID recently get better pet enmity options with Heyoka set and that alone might be enough to make it more reliable. I just bought my last three pieces for 5/5 NQ set today, so haven't had a ton of time to play with them yet.

I've been using a "normal" pet tanking set, but swapping into all my pet: enmity+ gear when I get close on the Strobe/Flash timers. Seems pretty effective. Lately we've been doing some Kyou with puppet main tank just eating the 10k move and a backup tank holding when I re-activate (and use enm+ set to get hate back ASAP), so getting some practice on that...

Asura.Kaitaru said: »
Think I'll need to do some more research on how the Puppet holds hate on heavy DD's unless PUP tanks Omen bosses with other pet classes. At this point it comes down to hoping that H2H gets fixed. Not sure if thats worth all the time making AG Mythic at that point. Sadly for me there aren't really any meta classes I enjoy other than maybe COR or possibly SMN. RUN could really be fun and make me realize the fun of 2H DD's.

It's probably not a great idea to use KKK to tank mobs more serious than Apex/CP or fodder though. If it's something like an Omen NM or hard Ambuscade/Escha target, you're likely better off with a defense-oriented weapon. I use my DT/Meva Ohrmazd more often than I use my KKK, just because that's what PUP really shines at these days. KKK is more for fun in the rare case I play as a melee and I'm not using my NIN instead.

Really, you don't make Kenkonken for being "worth it" in the meta (which might change tomorrow, either making your weapon useless or amazing - and frankly, for PUP it's hard to see any possibility other than a significant DD buff if H2H ever gets adjusted). You do it because you really like PUP. It's the job's best DD weapon by a longshot - as long as you're using a DD puppet too - uniquely so, thanks to being the only RMEA that helps the puppet. It's also best pet-only DD weapon if you have the means to trigger AM3. It's just that PUP as DD is somewhat of a niche role even if played to its maximum potential.

Though, hey, to some extent you could say similar stuff about Epeolatry being something that isn't necessarily the best thing to use. If you're able to go all out for damage you're better off Lionheart, and it's not even that rare for Aettir to be better for tanking applications where Meva provides more value than Epeo's extra PDT.

But if you're into playing RUN, do RUN! If you like COR, Death Penalty is pretty damn great. If you like PUP, KKK does have it's niche. If I was dedicating myself to an RME for PUP though, KKK is clearly the choice over Vere or Godhands (unless you are capable of cranking out lots of Aeonics).
 Asura.Kaitaru
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By Asura.Kaitaru 2017-07-17 15:46:46
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Kaitaru said: »
Think I'll need to do some more research on how the Puppet holds hate on heavy DD's unless PUP tanks Omen bosses with other pet classes. At this point it comes down to hoping that H2H gets fixed. Not sure if thats worth all the time making AG Mythic at that point. Sadly for me there aren't really any meta classes I enjoy other than maybe COR or possibly SMN. RUN could really be fun and make me realize the fun of 2H DD's.

It's probably not a great idea to use KKK to tank mobs more serious than Apex/CP or fodder though. If it's something like an Omen NM or hard Ambuscade/Escha target, you're likely better off with a defense-oriented weapon. I use my DT/Meva Ohrmazd more often than I use my KKK, just because that's what PUP really shines at these days. KKK is more for fun in the rare case I play as a melee and I'm not using my NIN instead.

Really, you don't make Kenkonken for being "worth it" in the meta (which might change tomorrow, either making your weapon useless or amazing - and frankly, for PUP it's hard to see any possibility other than a significant DD buff if H2H ever gets adjusted). You do it because you really like PUP. It's the job's best DD weapon by a longshot - as long as you're using a DD puppet too - uniquely so, thanks to being the only RMEA that helps the puppet. It's also best pet-only DD weapon if you have the means to trigger AM3. It's just that PUP as DD is somewhat of a niche role even if played to its maximum potential.

Though, hey, to some extent you could say similar stuff about Epeolatry being something that isn't necessarily the best thing to use. If you're able to go all out for damage you're better off Lionheart, and it's not even that rare for Aettir to be better for tanking applications where Meva provides more value than Epeo's extra PDT.

But if you're into playing RUN, do RUN! If you like COR, Death Penalty is pretty damn great. If you like PUP, KKK does have it's niche. If I was dedicating myself to an RME for PUP though, KKK is clearly the choice over Vere or Godhands (unless you are capable of cranking out lots of Aeonics).
It's the idea of spending the time and 200+ Million gill for a weapon that has a niche use. I guess if I was passively playing the game over the years I could see eventually just "getting" a KKK just as a completion piece for PUP. Honestly SE could buff H2H tomorrow and just like that I could just replace a light/heavy DD slot (granted I had KKK) but is that really a realistic expectation in the current state of the game?

With my limited playtime and wanting invest into something outside of a niche/trophy piece I just can't say getting something just because you love the class its attached to makes sense (in my opinion). I will absolutely agree its a very honorable notion but I just can't see it. For the time being I'll make an epy and just hope by the time i finish it we get some mention of a H2H fix to allow me to justify making the KKK before I leave this game for the last time. Honestly depending on how I like COR or BLU I could always shoot for a tizona or death penalty as I could never stomach camping NM's to make Almace on BLU xD.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-17 22:06:09
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Yeah, I mean, if you don't subscribe to the philosophy of making an RME for the job you love mainly because you love the job and want the ultimate trophy, KKK might be a hard sell.

Me, I identified as a PUP "main" since 2006, always wanted one, finally got one. And it is the best PUP DD weapon, but to some extent it's still a bit of a toy as opposed to some magic wand that suddenly makes PUP a top tier DPS (it's still best in the niche of a super sturdy tank for single mobs without a lot of hate reset). It does allow PUP to at least be respectable as a melee, but that's perhaps not what you're going for with the hefty investment.

Honestly though, I think there is more to be discovered with the complexity of balancing master and puppet, and in the current game I'm tempted to further lean on the puppet side of the equation and enhance that even more with AM3. I'd urge people to take a reeeeealy close look at KKK if we ever get substantial H2H buffs though (in particular, a strong WS buff) - the potential to move up to top tier DPS level is there if S-E ever does something for H2H across the board as a response to the frequent "FIX MNK" cries...
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By Asura.Kaitaru 2017-07-20 00:03:36
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Yeah, I mean, if you don't subscribe to the philosophy of making an RME for the job you love mainly because you love the job and want the ultimate trophy, KKK might be a hard sell.

Me, I identified as a PUP "main" since 2006, always wanted one, finally got one. And it is the best PUP DD weapon, but to some extent it's still a bit of a toy as opposed to some magic wand that suddenly makes PUP a top tier DPS (it's still best in the niche of a super sturdy tank for single mobs without a lot of hate reset). It does allow PUP to at least be respectable as a melee, but that's perhaps not what you're going for with the hefty investment.

Honestly though, I think there is more to be discovered with the complexity of balancing master and puppet, and in the current game I'm tempted to further lean on the puppet side of the equation and enhance that even more with AM3. I'd urge people to take a reeeeealy close look at KKK if we ever get substantial H2H buffs though (in particular, a strong WS buff) - the potential to move up to top tier DPS level is there if S-E ever does something for H2H across the board as a response to the frequent "FIX MNK" cries...

Absolutely in agreement there, there's nothing particularly wrong with KKK but H2H is in dire need of a rebalance. For me I identified as a BLU when it originally came out in ToAU but I often stared off at the distance at the PUP's tinkering with their automatons. I remember when masters couldn't really wear any DD gear and were incredibly reliant on AF sets until the Nyzule MNK/SAM/NIN/PUP set came out. There were long periods of time where I tinkered with my PUP but I never really experimented with it until abyssea and even so back then I was the type of person that really didn't care to experiment but would rather read a guide.

Only recently upon returning to the game both times since Rhapsodies I found myself hitting PUP hard but always feeling like the 5th wheel around the kind of comp me and my friends ran. As I've said before if H2H gets its fixes then I would roll over in a heartbeat as my friends have no issue as long as my H2H could pull comparable damage in situations where burst DPS is needed (ambu e.t.c.). I know upon building a mythic you have to select your weapon so my plan is still to collect the Alex/Plutons/Ichor/Tokens and hold them until I play a fair share of COR and BLU and simply hope that by then some word of H2H changes come around because if they do ill get a KKK on the spot at that point. If not Ill simply get the mythic for either class I stick with. Whether it be tizona or death penalty BLU and COR are generally welcome to most content in the game so can't go wrong either way.

All I want is more than a pipe dream so I rather tread carefully since I'm this late to the party anyway. Another thing I've always considered is there's always the possibility that my friends quit this time around and I stick around. In the event my friends move on I will consider moving to a server with a strong pet linkshell or find one on Asura and just get KKK for the heck of it at that point.`
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By Asura.Zart 2017-07-20 00:33:47
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I think you should play what you want,
I main THF and BRD.
I like playing thf more because i can DD and stuff so sometimes i just manage to play vol2 VD or vol1 easy as thief and have some fun. other times i do vol1 normal+ on white mage or bard, but really regarding this months ambuscade vol1 easy+, should be really good for pup and mnk to join in because its undead fomors and i think all undead take increased damage from blunt (it would make sense anyway) so really i wouldnt mind doing ambuscade vol1 runs with you if you wanted however; sense its the campaign ive been keeping myself busy every other day or so doing Omen job card farms.. good luck, and get the ultimate weapon for your favorite job! to me thats the only way it makes sense
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By Asura.Zart 2017-07-20 00:36:26
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i really think MNK and PUP are underappreciated undead killers, so if you look hard enough for the content it exists.
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By clearlyamule 2017-07-20 01:58:19
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Asura.Zart said: »
i really think MNK and PUP are underappreciated undead killers, so if you look hard enough for the content it exists.
If you are referring to blunt dmg bonuses I got some bad news for you. The problem is that's only for skeletons and corses and club users are better at it. Like if mnk/pup had access to judgment and better clubs they could probably do better dmg (at least ws dmg) with clubs lol. That's what the state of h2h is in these days
[+]
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-07-20 01:58:30
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You wrote "Undead killers" but did you mean "Skeleton killers"?
Because I don't see what pro would MNK or PUP have over stuff like ghosts or the majority of undead monsters really.
[+]
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-07-20 02:16:56
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To be fair, blunt bonuses extend to Naraka as well. That doesn't really change that fact that warrior is probably better at it, though.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-20 15:21:02
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Asura.Zart said: »
i really think MNK and PUP are underappreciated undead killers, so if you look hard enough for the content it exists.

This is straight up insane. There really isn't any meaningful bones content to go look for. Um... I guess go spam Belphegor forever and that's something? But that's a pretty lame niche.

Now, that ONE Ambuscade month with the corse, I was dominating parses with KKK PUP (all while also tanking it with my puppet, or setting it to add even more damage), and occasionally brought my MNK for similar fun. But that's so super niche, and as mentioned, WAR with clubs works just as well if not better for the same esoteric use. And nobody's not saying Club WAR is some generally viable DPS solution.

MNK is in a far worse spot than PUP though, because PUP can lean on the puppet's damage and basically 2x the weapon skills (master's somewhat mediocre H2H WS, and puppet WS... and extra SCs that come along with all of that). PUP also fills other niches like being an excellent tank on most single NM targets.

Unless/until H2H gets a buff, PUP would be best served to work on master+puppet setups for damage. KKK is the most viable overall damage option, and I think that will lean further on the puppet for best use these days.

Focusing on master only (including with Godhands/Vere) is just a worse MNK, and MNK is pretty much the unanimous choice for worst current DD job.

Focusing on puppet only also really limits your damage, because the master does add SOMETHING. Unless the reason is for safety in a pet party (particularly paired with COR pet buffs) and to keep the less disposable master out of dangerous AoE range.

Focusing on both, with more emphasis to the puppet, is really the best choice in 2017. Cap pet haste (easy with lots of great options now like Ambuscade cape, Klouskap, Heyoka set), stack some pet STP or acc where you can while maintaining adequate master acc and some multiattack, and go to town. Kenkonken enhances that immensely - the master TP gain is nice, but the huge benefit is puppet OA2-3x. So if you have KKK, can gear with even more puppet-focus when AM3 is up (and when building AM3, go all out for master TP generation to get AM3 up and running).

The downside there is that in a melee-friendly situation, there's a high likelihood of using player-focused buffs. BRD stuff, COR non-pet rolls, player-focused geomancy. The only stuff that helps your puppet are mob enfeebling effects (Distract, enemy targeted geomancy, etc.) and COR pet rolls. So, it's easier for most groups to just bring all strong non-pet melees and enhance them even more with buffs. Puppet has to either be more powerful than it already is to make up for that big loss, or H2H needs a buff so that master damage pulls more of the load. We'll see what happens on the H2H front...