How To Land Enfeebles

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How to land enfeebles
 Asura.Silversean
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-04 04:17:29
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Stupid question, I know, but I want to maximize my RDM enfeebling, but I don't know what stats to gear for. Ultimately I'd like to be able to enfeeble Reiseinjima T3+ more reliably.

There are many stats put forward to increase landing enfeebles, I'll list the ones I've found and links if applicable as well as first-hand experiences.

Some sources mix potency and accuracy (landing) together, others separate them. I'll list what the sources say when applicable.

dMND

A FFXI Dev post says dMND increases accuracy and then says it only increases potency.



The problem I have with this is that the devs say potency is affected by dMND, no matter the spell, but then they make a change saying every spell is dMND except Blind which is dINT. (https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6504743&highlight=Enfeebling#post6504743)

dINT

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6504743&highlight=enfeebling#post6504743

dSTAT

In this dev post, SE says that it's dSTAT and to land enfeebles on 135 mobs you need 300 of the applicable stat. (Which applicable stat? dMND? dINT? dSTAT based on the enfeeble)? https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6515998&highlight=Enfeebling#post6515998

Immunobreak + Elemental Seal

In this dev post the devs says that RDMs should stack enfeebling magic, get Immunobreak x2 and then Elemental Seal for a 100 land rate, no matter the spell or mob https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6515998&highlight=immunobreak#post6515998

This dev post suggests stacking enfeebling until you get Immunobreak x2 and then switching to "appropriate state" to land (which stat bro?) https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6515998&highlight=enfeebles#post6515998



MEVA increases Addle/Blind?


Enfeebling vs. MACC
  • SE says enfeebling, BG says MACC to land enfeebles and to land immunobreak. This link to the MACC equation says 1:1 Skill to MACC ratio until dSTAT >10-15, then Enfeebling:MACC becomes 0.5:1



Poison


Distract/Frazzle

  • FFXIBG says Distract is -35 EVA which is in line with what SE says but testing by other RDMs say Distract 1 is more towards -80 EVA which makes no sense as it is against: SE post, the potency equation, and prior testing https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Distract


  • Furthermore, testing indicates that Distract/Frazzle isn't affected by Uk boots or Empy body which it should as D/F isn't flat potency



Link to SE Dev post of enfeebling potency values for every enfeeble where it says that dMND affects the potency, which is against current Distract/Frazzle findings. Then SE says every spell potency is dMND except Blind for some reason: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6504743&highlight=enfeebling+values#post6504743

Anecdotal Findings
I was RDM for Teles, in my enfeebling skill sets and I got immunboreak after immunobreak, we wiped and I zobmie Dia'd until everyone was unweakened, and switched to my EnfMacc set where I replace enfeebling skill+ with MACC. No food, no GEO buffs/debuffs, no Impact, double-weakened, no RDM buffs I cast silence which I kept getting immunobreaks with in enfeebling skill+ gear and I land it first try in my EnfMacc set.

Thoughts
  • If SE wants us to Immunobreak x2 and then Elemental Seal to land an enfeeble, which does work. Why? Elemental Seal gives ~256 MACC, so if giving us an additional ~256 MACC ensures 100% land rate with or without immunobreak then should we stack MACC?
    Also locking the functionality of a job behind a 10 minute timer is the stupidest thing ever. "Oh hey RDMs, you can land 1 of your 15+ enfeebles, but only once every 10 mins. good luck lol" - SE




What do? How I RDM?
 Bismarck.Arcos
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By Bismarck.Arcos 2016-10-04 06:23:24
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I know this may not specifically help you...

I joined a JP group for Maju a few days ago. They were alternating SC from a SCH and using BLMs to MB. They were rotating SC, Compression, Impaction, Induration.

Blind was having difficulties landing. Even with Frazzle 3 up and ES. The one thing I could count on much much higher was landing it during that Compression SC while the BLMs were landing Death.
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-04 07:18:31
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Yeah, I've had to do similar where I'd MB Frazzle 3 during a Gravitation to ensure -MEVA and then hope with the increased -MEVA that I could land the other enfeebles.
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By Bismarck.Arcos 2016-10-04 07:38:22
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I haven't seen anything about the MEVA that the NM loses from a SC.

I think the MEVA down from the SC is much more than frazzle 3, unfortunately.
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By FaeQueenCory 2016-10-04 07:56:50
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There's a lot of confusion you have about things that really is just because you are ignorant of some of the basics a out magic in this game.

Skill directly translates into Macc. Always. Forever. And always at a fixed rate depending on your total skill. (There was a singular test forever ago, 75era, that showed for... either the 200~250 or 300~350 range idr, that Macc from skill is 1:1. As nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio, I'm fairly confident that with 400+ the rate is akin to skill:accuracy and is either 1:0.9 or 1:0.8 at worst. It's obnoxious to test, even more so with iLvs, but if you hedge your bets and treat your skill gear as 1:0.9, you'll never be under.)
Your quoted "from this range to that" with varying "skill" to Macc isn't skill to Macc. It's ΔSTAT to Macc. That's how MND and INT always derive into Macc: starting at 1STAT:1Macc, until you exceed the target's relevant stat by ~20 then it drops to 2STAT:1Macc (aka 1:0.5)

Which brings us to your next confusion: "STAT"
This refers to the base stats. And since we're talking about magic, INT and MND specifically.
Some enfeebles use INT (Black) while others use MND (White), and they all (with some exception) get potency boosts from MND regardless of what ΔSTAT they use for Macc.
(This was done to make RDM better at enfeebling than just a WHM or a BLM.)

Which brings us to your confusion on spells like distract. The "discrepancy" you find is well known... because ΔMND gives a boost in potency. I don't recall the caps off the top of my head, but -35 is only the base, with I think another 40 can come from MND. And then there's II and III which get just ridiculous values after their ΔMND is factored in.

All I can say is that you need to learn the very basics of magic.
I hope this off the cuff rambling was enlightening and cleared your confusion on the basics.
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By FaeQueenCory 2016-10-04 07:59:52
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Bismarck.Arcos said: »
I haven't seen anything about the MEVA that the NM loses from a SC.

I think the MEVA down from the SC is much more than frazzle 3, unfortunately.
Magic bursting doesn't affect Meva. Spells that are burst have large Macc bonuses.
Potency also isn't affected by MBing. (Not that you claimed so, just putting it out there.)
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 Bismarck.Arcos
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By Bismarck.Arcos 2016-10-04 08:22:28
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How large is the MACC bonus?
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By eliroo 2016-10-04 09:59:29
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One of the interesting things about Seans post is his mention of stacking enfeebling magic for Immunobreak.

Is there a chance that Enfeebling magic could effect the proc rate of immunobreak and Macc doesn't?

Do we have sufficient research on Immunobreak in general?

Do we understand What the Immunobreak +1 is on the Chironic pants?



Also another unrelated question:

What are some ways to land Distract on darkness resistant mobs? Can it be done with a magic burst? Or is Rayke typically required? Is there a certain threshold of accuracy required? I find the elemental affinity of these crucial debuffs to be extremely vexing.
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By Nocki 2016-10-04 10:21:41
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Asura.Silversean said: »
  • Furthermore, testing indicates that Distract/Frazzle isn't affected by Uk boots or Empy body which it should as D/F isn't flat potency


My LS endeavors to do some of the Reisen T4s melee method, so I was just testing my Distract III Potency on another character in Lumbus last night and these were the numbers I got:

Skill 610: -90 Eva
Skill 609, Potency +10: -97 Eva
Skill 589, Potency +24: -106 Eva


eliroo said: »
Is there a chance that Enfeebling magic could effect the proc rate of immunobreak and Macc doesn't?

Do we have sufficient research on Immunobreak in general?

Do we understand What the Immunobreak +1 is on the Chironic pants?

This is all purely anecdotal evidence taken from me doing Maju:

Magic Accuracy > Enfeebling Skill when trying to actually land a spell.

Immunobreak is basically a blink shadow that applies to that specific enfeebling spell and regenerates after a certain amount of time.

The Immunobreak +1 on Chironic Pants makes it so that, if it takes casting a spell 3 times to actually land (immunobreak, immunobreak, land) then if you immunobreak it will remove 2 "shadows" instead of 1 and therefore only take 2 casts (Immunobreak, land).
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 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-10-04 10:36:27
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eliroo said: »
One of the interesting things about Seans post is his mention of stacking enfeebling magic for Immunobreak.

Is there a chance that Enfeebling magic could effect the proc rate of immunobreak and Macc doesn't?

Do we have sufficient research on Immunobreak in general?

Do we understand What the Immunobreak +1 is on the Chironic pants?



Also another unrelated question:

What are some ways to land Distract on darkness resistant mobs? Can it be done with a magic burst? Or is Rayke typically required? Is there a certain threshold of accuracy required? I find the elemental affinity of these crucial debuffs to be extremely vexing.

Hmmm makes me wonder about Immunobreak +1 on the Chironic legs now. I've made it a habit now to get only 1 immunobreak with those pants on most things that are difficult (Escha Ru'aun AATT Silence, Maju Blind II, etc..) due to follow up enfeebs landing when I didn't want them to. I follow with ES enfeeb and it's never missed from what I can recall.
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By Quendi210 2016-10-04 12:13:06
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Bismarck.Indigla said: »
eliroo said: »
One of the interesting things about Seans post is his mention of stacking enfeebling magic for Immunobreak.

Is there a chance that Enfeebling magic could effect the proc rate of immunobreak and Macc doesn't?

Do we have sufficient research on Immunobreak in general?

Do we understand What the Immunobreak +1 is on the Chironic pants?



Also another unrelated question:

What are some ways to land Distract on darkness resistant mobs? Can it be done with a magic burst? Or is Rayke typically required? Is there a certain threshold of accuracy required? I find the elemental affinity of these crucial debuffs to be extremely vexing.

Hmmm makes me wonder about Immunobreak +1 on the Chironic legs now. I've made it a habit now to get only 1 immunobreak with those pants on most things that are difficult (Escha Ru'aun AATT Silence, Maju Blind II, etc..) due to follow up enfeebs landing when I didn't want them to. I follow with ES enfeeb and it's never missed from what I can recall.

When do you cast Enfeebling magic and not want it to land?
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By Bismarck.Arcos 2016-10-04 12:50:30
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Quendi210 said: »
When do you cast Enfeebling magic and not want it to land?

Non-saboteured enfeebles to get immunobreak on NMs that require such as Maju.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2016-10-04 14:04:30
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I'm in the same shell as Quendi. We never cast blind on Maju without the intent of it landing. If immunobreaks happen in the course of trying to land it, so be it, but we're not gearing first for that then to land. He's better geared than I, but both of us see non-saboteur/non-ES blinds regularly.

Again, I'll refer you to his post in the RDM sticky on the Amalric coif+1 in blind sets for a similar vein.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-10-04 22:31:04
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This isn't RDM specific, but I've never gotten a clear cut answer on it:

Is there a minimum enfeebling skill I should utilize on my GEO for enfeebles, or just max magic accuracy wherever possible? I've heard some say keep 500 skill, and some say just max, and I'm not sure which is better.
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-07 01:19:27
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FaeQueenCory said: »
There's a lot of confusion you have about things that really is just because you are ignorant of some of the basics a out magic in this game.

Skill directly translates into Macc. Always. Forever. And always at a fixed rate depending on your total skill. (There was a singular test forever ago, 75era, that showed for... either the 200~250 or 300~350 range idr, that Macc from skill is 1:1. As nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio, I'm fairly confident that with 400+ the rate is akin to skill:accuracy and is either 1:0.9 or 1:0.8 at worst. It's obnoxious to test, even more so with iLvs, but if you hedge your bets and treat your skill gear as 1:0.9, you'll never be under.)
Your quoted "from this range to that" with varying "skill" to Macc isn't skill to Macc. It's ΔSTAT to Macc. That's how MND and INT always derive into Macc: starting at 1STAT:1Macc, until you exceed the target's relevant stat by ~20 then it drops to 2STAT:1Macc (aka 1:0.5)

Which brings us to your next confusion: "STAT"
This refers to the base stats. And since we're talking about magic, INT and MND specifically.
Some enfeebles use INT (Black) while others use MND (White), and they all (with some exception) get potency boosts from MND regardless of what ΔSTAT they use for Macc.
(This was done to make RDM better at enfeebling than just a WHM or a BLM.)

Which brings us to your confusion on spells like distract. The "discrepancy" you find is well known... because ΔMND gives a boost in potency. I don't recall the caps off the top of my head, but -35 is only the base, with I think another 40 can come from MND. And then there's II and III which get just ridiculous values after their ΔMND is factored in.

All I can say is that you need to learn the very basics of magic.
I hope this off the cuff rambling was enlightening and cleared your confusion on the basics.


So asking questions in order to become further educated = ignorance?

I know the "basics" of magic in this game, I thought I'd ask again seeing as how the people that made this game state something different from the "basics". You're right though, testing @75 cap will totally remain true now.

Also, it seems you're ignorant of the "basics" as I linked the MND potencies of every enfeeble as listed by the developers. The reason I asked about the Skill:MACC is that I've found differing values. Moreover, in your attempt to educate me you dismantle your argument. You state that ".. nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio", but the testing done @75 totally is the same, forever, no matter what.
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-07 01:20:10
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eliroo said: »
One of the interesting things about Seans post is his mention of stacking enfeebling magic for Immunobreak.

Is there a chance that Enfeebling magic could effect the proc rate of immunobreak and Macc doesn't?

Do we have sufficient research on Immunobreak in general?

Do we understand What the Immunobreak +1 is on the Chironic pants?



Also another unrelated question:

What are some ways to land Distract on darkness resistant mobs? Can it be done with a magic burst? Or is Rayke typically required? Is there a certain threshold of accuracy required? I find the elemental affinity of these crucial debuffs to be extremely vexing.


I didn't say Enfeebling skill = more Immunobreaks, the developers of the game did.
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By Asura.Chiaia 2016-10-07 02:09:30
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Asura.Silversean said: »
FaeQueenCory said: »
There's a lot of confusion you have about things that really is just because you are ignorant of some of the basics a out magic in this game.

Skill directly translates into Macc. Always. Forever. And always at a fixed rate depending on your total skill. (There was a singular test forever ago, 75era, that showed for... either the 200~250 or 300~350 range idr, that Macc from skill is 1:1. As nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio, I'm fairly confident that with 400+ the rate is akin to skill:accuracy and is either 1:0.9 or 1:0.8 at worst. It's obnoxious to test, even more so with iLvs, but if you hedge your bets and treat your skill gear as 1:0.9, you'll never be under.)
Your quoted "from this range to that" with varying "skill" to Macc isn't skill to Macc. It's ΔSTAT to Macc. That's how MND and INT always derive into Macc: starting at 1STAT:1Macc, until you exceed the target's relevant stat by ~20 then it drops to 2STAT:1Macc (aka 1:0.5)

Which brings us to your next confusion: "STAT"
This refers to the base stats. And since we're talking about magic, INT and MND specifically.
Some enfeebles use INT (Black) while others use MND (White), and they all (with some exception) get potency boosts from MND regardless of what ΔSTAT they use for Macc.
(This was done to make RDM better at enfeebling than just a WHM or a BLM.)

Which brings us to your confusion on spells like distract. The "discrepancy" you find is well known... because ΔMND gives a boost in potency. I don't recall the caps off the top of my head, but -35 is only the base, with I think another 40 can come from MND. And then there's II and III which get just ridiculous values after their ΔMND is factored in.

All I can say is that you need to learn the very basics of magic.
I hope this off the cuff rambling was enlightening and cleared your confusion on the basics.


So asking questions in order to become further educated = ignorance?

I know the "basics" of magic in this game, I thought I'd ask again seeing as how the people that made this game state something different from the "basics". You're right though, testing @75 cap will totally remain true now.

Also, it seems you're ignorant of the "basics" as I linked the MND potencies of every enfeeble as listed by the developers. The reason I asked about the Skill:MACC is that I've found differing values. Moreover, in your attempt to educate me you dismantle your argument. You state that ".. nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio", but the testing done @75 totally is the same, forever, no matter what.
Your either miss understanding what he is saying or I am miss understanding you...
What he is saying just like Melee Combat skills is that Magic Skill doesn't have a set ratio. At different ranges it changes. He was refurring to that 75 test because for years people swore that 1Magic Skill:1Macc which when tested then seemed to have held true because of the skill range we had then.

It makes no sense because Combat Skills have different conversion rates at different ranges. No one wants to go test Magic Skills to see if they really are 1:1. I think a lot of use are on the same page these days that it probably varies just like Combat Skill and sometimes it equals .8 .9 and 1.0. So his generalization to go with 1MSkil:0.9 sounds far imo.

Also dStat changes from 1:1 to .5:1. Which futher makes us believe why would one type of stat in the game be the one outsider that stays fully constant.
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-07 02:12:02
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
Asura.Silversean said: »
FaeQueenCory said: »
There's a lot of confusion you have about things that really is just because you are ignorant of some of the basics a out magic in this game.

Skill directly translates into Macc. Always. Forever. And always at a fixed rate depending on your total skill. (There was a singular test forever ago, 75era, that showed for... either the 200~250 or 300~350 range idr, that Macc from skill is 1:1. As nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio, I'm fairly confident that with 400+ the rate is akin to skill:accuracy and is either 1:0.9 or 1:0.8 at worst. It's obnoxious to test, even more so with iLvs, but if you hedge your bets and treat your skill gear as 1:0.9, you'll never be under.)
Your quoted "from this range to that" with varying "skill" to Macc isn't skill to Macc. It's ΔSTAT to Macc. That's how MND and INT always derive into Macc: starting at 1STAT:1Macc, until you exceed the target's relevant stat by ~20 then it drops to 2STAT:1Macc (aka 1:0.5)

Which brings us to your next confusion: "STAT"
This refers to the base stats. And since we're talking about magic, INT and MND specifically.
Some enfeebles use INT (Black) while others use MND (White), and they all (with some exception) get potency boosts from MND regardless of what ΔSTAT they use for Macc.
(This was done to make RDM better at enfeebling than just a WHM or a BLM.)

Which brings us to your confusion on spells like distract. The "discrepancy" you find is well known... because ΔMND gives a boost in potency. I don't recall the caps off the top of my head, but -35 is only the base, with I think another 40 can come from MND. And then there's II and III which get just ridiculous values after their ΔMND is factored in.

All I can say is that you need to learn the very basics of magic.
I hope this off the cuff rambling was enlightening and cleared your confusion on the basics.


So asking questions in order to become further educated = ignorance?

I know the "basics" of magic in this game, I thought I'd ask again seeing as how the people that made this game state something different from the "basics". You're right though, testing @75 cap will totally remain true now.

Also, it seems you're ignorant of the "basics" as I linked the MND potencies of every enfeeble as listed by the developers. The reason I asked about the Skill:MACC is that I've found differing values. Moreover, in your attempt to educate me you dismantle your argument. You state that ".. nothing in this game constantly converts at any ratio", but the testing done @75 totally is the same, forever, no matter what.
Your either miss understanding what he is saying or I am miss understanding you...
What he is saying just like Melee Combat skills is that Magic Skill doesn't have a set ratio. At different ranges it changes. He was refurring to that 75 test because for years people swore that 1Magic Skill:1Macc which when tested then seemed to have held true because of the skill range we had then.

It makes no sense because Combat Skills have different conversion rates at different ranges. No one wants to go test Magic Skills to see if they really are 1:1. I think a lot of use are on the same page these days that it probably varies just like Combat Skill and sometimes it equals .8 .9 and 1.0. So his generalization to go with 1MSkil:0.9 sounds far imo.


Oh, that makes sense. It probably does vary like combat skill.
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By Asura.Chiaia 2016-10-07 02:14:47
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I do know somewhere around there is a link to a JP Blog that was testing Magic Skill from iLVL weapons and he came to the conclusion that its defiantly not 1:1 for those at-least.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-10-07 02:29:41
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
I do know somewhere around there is a link to a JP Blog that was testing Magic Skill from iLVL weapons and he came to the conclusion that its defiantly not 1:1 for those at-least.

There was a Dev post that stated the +magic skill from weapons was each skill being 0.5 magic acc.
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By Asura.Silversean 2016-10-07 02:34:00
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Asura.Chiaia said: »
I do know somewhere around there is a link to a JP Blog that was testing Magic Skill from iLVL weapons and he came to the conclusion that its defiantly not 1:1 for those at-least.

There was a Dev post that stated the +magic skill from weapons was each skill being 0.5 magic acc.


I don't think it was 0.5, but you're correct in that there was a dev post detailing the MACC you get from MACC Skill+ on ilevel weapons.
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-10-07 04:13:03
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A few tests from an active JP blog, although note these tests are with nukes so that he can see the resist states. As far as I can tell, though, the tests that we base our general knowledge for magic accuracy on also used nukes.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/42283734.html#more
Magic accuracy is slightly better than skill. First test (SCH) has +145 magic accuracy over the second test (BLM), which has +145 elemental skill over the first test. All other stats are equal. SCH had 5% better full hit rate (also note this is below 50% hit rate, so macc/skill are being penalized).

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/48988131.html
SE's post about magic accuracy skill+ is way off, and the author believes it is no different than skill:macc, so around 1:0.9. Wrote about this post in a little more detail here.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/48996507.html#more
Magic accuracy return on INT is abysmal after around +20-30. From the chart, you'd think +20, but he says that his personal opinion is that +30 is the cut off, probably because he's aware of the original test, which suggests +10-30 gives .5 per 1 INT. Personally, I think it could be that the cut off for 1 per 1 INT is +20, and after that it falls off drastically.

Can translate specific parts later if someone requests.
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By Asura.Chiaia 2016-10-07 04:34:23
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Ragnarok.Flippant said: »
A few tests from an active JP blog, although note these tests are with nukes so that he can see the resist states. As far as I can tell, though, the tests that we base our general knowledge for magic accuracy on also used nukes.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/42283734.html#more
Magic accuracy is slightly better than skill. First test (SCH) has +145 magic accuracy over the second test (BLM), which has +145 elemental skill over the first test. All other stats are equal. SCH had 5% better full hit rate (also note this is below 50% hit rate, so macc/skill are being penalized).

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/48988131.html
SE's post about magic accuracy skill+ is way off, and the author believes it is no different than skill:macc, so around 1:0.9. Wrote about this post in a little more detail here.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/48996507.html#more
Magic accuracy return on INT is abysmal after around +20-30. From the chart, you'd think +20, but he says that his personal opinion is that +30 is the cut off, probably because he's aware of the original test, which suggests +10-30 gives .5 per 1 INT. Personally, I think it could be that the cut off for 1 per 1 INT is +20, and after that it falls off drastically.

Can translate specific parts later if someone requests.
Ty Flippant the 2nd link is the one I was talking about and I guess I had read about it from your original post in the ninja forum. :) (I had liked it.)