Samurai Discussion #93520123

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Samurai Discussion #93520123
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 Asura.Dajociont
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By Asura.Dajociont 2011-08-28 03:24:31
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pretty sure my comment was on topic, was regarding sam!
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-28 03:31:29
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:(
 Asura.Dajociont
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By Asura.Dajociont 2011-08-28 03:33:24
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your frowning is irrelevant to the thread, topic ban!
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-28 09:06:43
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Fenrir.Niniann said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
That's really only an illusion of the truth, as far as I'm concerned. Very little is likely to change, its more that the fact that very little did change is going to be brought to the surface at a full-force run. Masamune was never that much better than Amano, and as such, Amano's advantages are already very apparent to anyone who's tried to smack even T2 VW mobs. Bravura will probably never be better than Ukon, Mjollner will probably always be better than Gamby, Mandau and Twas will probably always be astonishingly similar, Apocalypse and Redemption will probably always be the lesser options of any serious DRK- the list goes on.

I believe Night actually did some math that showed Apocalypse to be superior in a certain situation, though the situation escapes me and he's gone to bed.

Everything else is spot on though, lol.

I'd be lying if it weren't speculation, but really? I feel like Ragnarok has gotten significantly better, while Apocalypse has just gotten.. accuracy.
I'm not quite ready to say it's all accurate, but it's getting there. I forgot to add in Zerk merits for WAR, which pushed its numbers up a bit, and some minor adjustments currently put SAM even/slightly ahead of Apoc in the situation I was looking at up there (moderate level/def/eva, enough that additional acc is needed in some form). WAR still wins easily when acc is irrelevant though. Haven't played around with Ragnarok or Liberator at all yet either so it's possible one or both could overtake Apoc (I imagine Liberator often does these days but meh), though the delay on the greatswords is a minor downer since it requires more STP. I'm also not sure we have good values for the critrate enhancements on Rag and Scourge.

Given that I've mostly stuck to full buffs thus far I wouldn't be surprised to see DRK pull ahead in situations where it's gaining haste out of Last Resort instead of swapping gear around, though you do lose some flexibility in gear as a result. Regardless, the potential for top-tier damage in certain situations with Apoc's additional utility via Catastrophe is pretty nice.
 Leviathan.Jihiro
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By Leviathan.Jihiro 2011-08-29 18:11:55
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The debate for SAM TP sets have always fallen under the category of HASTE vs. STP (X-hit). How much HASTE are you willing to sacrifice for a higher X-hit tier? In this post I will strictly compare 5-hit sets. You can easily achieve 5-hits with haste values close to (or even at) the gear haste value without sacrificing much.

I've compiled 3 5-hit TP sets based the very important stat of HASTE and list many important (significant) statistical advantages of each set and each sets downsides. All 3 sets allow you to WS in the SAME WS SETS so long as you have the holy duo of Rajas Ring and Unkai Haidate +2 equipped in your WS set. 5/5 STP merits is REQUIRED.

Kirschy's BG Haste Topic (Graph)
Kirschy's BG Haste Topic (Numbers)

#1

  • 26% HASTE = 128/512
    -15 ATK
    +5% DA
    Unkai Mimikazari OPTIONAL



#2

  • 24% HASTE = 120/512
    +20 ATK
    +8% DA
    +2% QA
    Unkai Mimikazari REQUIRED



#3

  • 22% HASTE = 110/512
    +20 ATK
    +10% DA
    +2% QA
    Unkai Mimikazari REQUIRED



Generic WS set for all 3 TP sets

  • Lawl



Let's start comparing sets. The first and most glaring difference between the WS sets is the back piece. #1 requires the infamous Tactical Mantle compared to sets #2 and #3. The second major difference is set #3 boasting the Pole Grip. There are also minor differences among the multi-hit rate values. Will elaborate below. ALSO very important note: by using Unkai Mimikazari for all 3 sets you allow EQUAL zanshin rates for all 3 sets.

HASTE.
I will ignore TP set #3 temporarily. The pole grip applies to the WS set debate, which this post is not about. The main concern here is, are you willing to sacrifice all of the statistical benefits of TP set #2 to achieve 2% more haste? Do I really have to use the disgusting piece known as the Tactical Mantle in the optimal TP set? The answer is YES (sadly) and NO (oh my!).

  • Why YES?
    Based on Kirschy's BG Haste Topic (Numbers) we can achieve a 370/512 (72.26%) HASTE with set #1 and 361/512 (70.5%) HASTE with set #2 with all haste buffs applied (HASSO, HASTE, MARCHx2, ~13/512 from AF3+2 Pants). If comparing the numbers using the amazing graph in this topic: Kirschy's BG Haste Topic (Graph) we can see the difference between #1 and #2 to be ~.4 attack rounds in favor of set #1. Mathematically that means for every 5~6 attack rounds, set #1 will have 2 attack swings advantage over set #2. That alone trumps all statistical advantages of set #2. If set #1 had a base DA value of 0%, set #2 would need a base DA value of 33% to compare. The difference is only 3% and a miniscule 2% QA value! The difference between set #1 and #3 (351/512 or 68.55% HASTE) is astronomical at nearly .7~ attack round greater. The amazing conclusion is that at higher haste values (when many enhancements that buff haste are readily available) every little bit of haste helps regardless of the sacrifice. There should be no excuse and debate when your party boasts a fully geared bard with a +2 march instrument.


  • Why NO?
    The parabolic graph in Kirschy's BG Haste Topic (Graph) shows that at lower haste values, each point of haste is worth less and less. In situations where haste (spell) or MARCHES are not available, the advantages of sacrificing Atheling Mantle and Ganesha's Mala for higher haste is not advisable. Merely .1~.3 attack rounds when comparing the sets to the graph (#1 = 266/512 51.95%, #2 = 258/512 50.4%, #3 = 248/512 48.4%). The loss of .1~.2 attack rounds when comparing going from set #1 to #2 WITHOUT MARCHES can be easily made up for the extra attack rounds AND attack damage you receive from Atheling and Ganesha's over the course of many attack rounds. Overall DPS will increase when switching to WS set #2 when HASTE buffs (MARCHES comes to mind), outside HASSO and base GEAR HASTE values, are lacking due to increases in the statistical values of using more optimal gear.



CONCLUSION.
I hope I didn't get anything wrong and that this is useful for the haste debate. Herp derp.
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2011-08-29 18:37:13
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Leviathan.Jihiro said: »
CONCLUSION. 6-hit.
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 Leviathan.Jihiro
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By Leviathan.Jihiro 2011-08-29 21:58:24
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Odin.Dirtyfinger said: »
Leviathan.Jihiro said: »
CONCLUSION. 6-hit.
Currently optimizing 6-hit Zanshin setups, testing, and doing the maths with my abacus.
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-08-29 22:52:00
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TP:
weapon/polegrip/thew
Zelus/Gane/Cent/Brutal
Af3+2/Dusk+1(Aces)/Mars(Pyro)/Rajas
Atheling/Bullwhip/Af3+2/Aces


Inside Abyssea swap out polegrip for claymore(or sword strap if it doesnt break your build outside/inside), if you dont have ganesha use Rancor collar. Hands are probably just preference and if youve augmented dusk, though -movement speed should be an issue. The good thing about a 6hit is it has flexiability, can swap in black tath,acc neck, bushi,usukane feet, mars ring to accomodate any acc issues that and the tp bonus earring does more for ws then it does for tp. I personally use Juogi over Af3+2 because its hideous on elvaan model and I know that Im purposely gimping my output by less than 1% and thats fine by me(just inc ppl check my profile)

WS:
weapon/grip/thew
Varangian/Justice/Cent/WotG
Faz Mail/Heafoc/Pyro/Pyro
Unkai/Beir+1/Hachiryu/Af3+2

Can use anguinus when berserk is down, can use brutal earring when attack is capped, aswell as ele gorget/belt when its capped.
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2011-08-29 23:11:06
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Is Pole/Claymore really better than Sword Strap?

This is what I'm using:



17.1 - So still have complete WS choice freedom.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-30 02:46:12
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They aren't that far apart, I'd imagine Pole edges out due to benefits on WS.
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