Samurai Discussion #93520123

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Samurai Discussion #93520123
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:09:41
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Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »
Austar I'm 10 minutes from home, solve this thread by then or you're fired
At the cost of getting myself topic banned?
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 17:12:46
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Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :<
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:13:26
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Ramuh.Krizz said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
Read the rules.

I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity.
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 17:14:30
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Ramuh.Krizz said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
Read the rules.
I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity.
If you don't like it, don't post.
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:16:17
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Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »
If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...

I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.

I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-08-27 17:17:48
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Ramuh.Krizz said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
Read the rules.

I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity.

How's the game of pointing fingers going for you? Pretty sure Krizz is doing a fine job even if it pisses me off sometimes.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:20:15
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Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »
Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :<
But I don't wanna
 
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 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:23:23
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Are you kidding me? Look at the post above you.

And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.

they outlined when the whole "we are losing sponsorship" happened that they would be openly moderating. at this point it was quite a while ago, maybe a month or two. its in the rules also.

edit: i have been beaten, sorry for double post.
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 17:26:21
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »
If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...

I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.

I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences.
If you're not going to actually contribute to the thread, just stop posting.
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 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 17:26:27
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »
Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :<
But I don't wanna
I have returned from the bowels of mordor
And Austar, I'm sincerely disappoint
 Asura.Alymorel
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By Asura.Alymorel 2011-08-27 17:26:32
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Bahamut.Zellc said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Are you kidding me? Look at the post above you.

And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.

they outlined when the whole "we are losing sponsorship" happened that they would be openly moderating. at this point it was quite a while ago, maybe a month or two. its in the rules also.

edit: i have been beaten, sorry for double post.
The exact phrasing was:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Admin and Moderator Procedure:

- We will no longer attempt to "soft" correct differences with users over private messages, in order to be more consistent and visible in our disciplinary policies.

- We are tentatively removing the soft prohibition on discussing disciplinary measures taken against a given user in public. (This means if someone is doing something blatantly wrong, it will be stated that they were banned in the thread.)
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:27:57
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Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »
Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :<
But I don't wanna
I have returned from the bowels of mordor
And Austar, I'm sincerely disappoint
I tried... :( Let's just go hang out in some theme song related thread, it's boring here.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:28:33
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Ramuh.Krizz said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »
If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...

I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.

I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences.
If you're not going to actually contribute to the thread, just stop posting.

Its a perfectly valid contribution. Opposition to untested, unqualified theorizing is completely necessary.
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:32:40
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i do not wish to join in the attack against dodu. like ena said there are some truths in what he said on page one.

i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.

rather than just saying people are flat out wrong, try posting some sets that you believe are another option for players who are seeking guidance to take notes from. no need for such volatility, we can communicate like civil people with a little effort.
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 Carbuncle.Kerokun
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By Carbuncle.Kerokun 2011-08-27 17:33:09
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I use ye olde capped haste White Tathlum/Zelus Tiara/Tactical Mantle TP set, and I feel satisfied.

Yet I used to use the Theory 1 set or whichever. I haven't done any testing, but the extra couple points of haste feel gewd. |3

Bismarck.Elanabelle said: »
With that in mind, I think it's ridiculous for a SAM to use White Tathlum, Unkai Mimikazari, and Tactical Mantle just so s/he can also use Zelus Tiara. Doing that surrenders (among other things) over 50 Attack from one's TP set (8 from Thew, 20 from Atheling, 15 from the penalty on Tactical, 3 from the STR from Bushinomimi/Thew, 5 from the Skill on Bushinomimi).
:< This makes me sad because I didn't quite realize how much attack I was giving up from capped dat haste. I detested the idea of swapping Tactical in for Atheling by any means necessary, but for some reason, 35 seemed manageable but 50 seems horrid.

This is my "insecure-about-my-TP-set" face:

D:
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:36:24
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Bahamut.Zellc said: »
attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.

But that's just it! I'm not claiming that what I'm doing or what I think is correct, and I'm certainly not saying anyone contributing is acting out of malice. All I'm saying is that that the OP, Ironguy, etc are not going to produce the results they're looking for, and that instead of compiling lists of what works for them, they should be PM'ing people who can actually do the work that needs to be done.
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:51:21
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Bahamut.Zellc said: »
attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.

But that's just it! I'm not claiming that what I'm doing or what I think is correct, and I'm certainly not saying anyone contributing is acting out of malice. All I'm saying is that that the OP, Ironguy, etc are not going to produce the results they're looking for, and that instead of compiling lists of what works for them, they should be PM'ing people who can actually do the work that needs to be done.

while that does make sense, i fail to see how that is a contribution to the thread. if those people wanted to contribute to this thread they would get to it when they could. no real need to say anyone is inadequate to post something about a job that they take the time to post in a thread dedicated to the job. i just think it is very polite imo.
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-08-27 17:54:44
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Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 18:04:55
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I know it's cool to hate on Dodu, but his points are valid. Lots of speculation being used here to push ideas without a lot to back them up.

Zellc said:
i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.
You've got that backwards. Disregarding the concrete nature of the game's equations in favor of mercurial opinions is a poor way to contribute when discussing game mechanics.

Siren.Clinpachi said: »
So the question i have at the moment is, so its a waste to go the zelus route on SAM correct?
Potentially correct in that that last bit of haste may or (often) may not be the preferable option in a 5-hit, but incorrect insofar as you should be using a 6-hit and thus Zelus Tiara is a go.

They're almost identical on stuff where you have no problem capping hitrate (somewhat favoring 6-hit, especially w/ Ganesha's Mala and/or haste buffs inflating the impact of the haste difference), but the moment acc starts to matter you'll find the 5-hit suffering in a big way. 6-hit can maintain meat instead of pizza over a greater range while still capping hitrate and still has the option for pizza after that.

Quote:
Also (and this may help those who don't know) it's a huge mistake to make only 1 WS set for SAM, you definitely want to do one with berserk up and down.
Half correct. Having two sets is better than having one provided the following conditions are met:

1) You tie use of each set to more factors than simply whether or not Zerk is up. Because Berserk is multiplicative rather than additive, it doesn't make the attack you already have any weaker provided you're not capping cRatio (variations in pDIF equations exist but you get the point).
2) You use SAM in a wide enough variety of conditions to justify differentiation. A pretty reasonable assumption, but if you only pull out SAM for a niche subset of NMs, especially in something like Voidwatch where there's no fodder for variety, then a capped cRatio set isn't doing anything for you. That said, differentiation may or may not even be needed right now given Faz/+1/R Mail.
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-08-27 18:06:18
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.

Because he's not contributing and just causing ***for no reason.
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 18:08:43
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Bahamut.Serj said: »
Leviathan.Draylo said: »
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.

Because he's not contributing and just causing ***for no reason.

Having the correct answer is not a prerequisite for telling people that an answer is wrong.
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 18:13:49
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That's enough.
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 18:49:44
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
I know it's cool to hate on Dodu, but his points are valid. Lots of speculation being used here to push ideas without a lot to back them up.

Zellc said:
i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.
You've got that backwards. Disregarding the concrete nature of the game's equations in favor of mercurial opinions is a poor way to contribute when discussing game mechanics.

so does that mean that you agree with dodu when he/she says that the people who posted the first few groups of item sets should not have posted/have no business posting what they think would be helpful to a person inquiring on a direction to go in terms of gear selection?(thats a run-on sentence and i apologize, i should have structured that question better.)

maybe their current gear doesnt permit that they use what currently best in some slots. that doesnt make what they post any less helpful than the next persons post. everyone has an opinion on what they think could be best, and thats why posting the different option for tping was so helpful imo.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 18:54:15
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I'd appreciate you rephrasing the first question, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking and I don't want to answer it wrong because I think it needs to be answered to clear up a misperception.

Quote:
maybe their current gear doesnt permit that they use what currently best in some slots. that doesnt make what they post any less helpful than the next persons post.
At least in Clinpachi's case, it wasn't as you say. It was "here are the options, which one to use". If less-than-perfect gear is what's available, then you discuss gear choices with that in mind, but you're imposing a limitation that Clinpachi did not.

Quote:
everyone has an opinion on what they think could be best, and thats why posting the different option for tping was so helpful imo.
You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you? There is one and only one best set for a specific situation and that is not going to change because of somebody's opinion unless they have the power to actually alter the very code on which the entire game runs to suit said opinion.
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 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-08-27 18:55:40
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you?

i'm so aroused right now i don't know what to do with myself
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 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-27 18:56:45
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Carbuncle.Sevourn said: »
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you?

i'm so aroused right now i don't know what to do with myself

I was just about to quote this.

And into the txt document it goes.
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