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Samurai Discussion #93520123
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:09:41
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Austar I'm 10 minutes from home, solve this thread by then or you're fired At the cost of getting myself topic banned?
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 17:12:46
Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :<
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Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:13:26
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for. Read the rules.
I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity.
Ramuh.Krizz
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 17:14:30
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for. Read the rules. I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity. If you don't like it, don't post.
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Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:16:17
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...
I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.
I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences.
Bismarck.Aerison
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 292
By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-08-27 17:17:48
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for. Read the rules.
I know what you're allowed to do, but that doesn't make it any less inappropriate. There's a reason most of the world runs on reports filed in anonymity.
How's the game of pointing fingers going for you? Pretty sure Krizz is doing a fine job even if it pisses me off sometimes.
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:20:15
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :< But I don't wanna
Bahamut.Zellc
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 643
By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:23:23
Are you kidding me? Look at the post above you.
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
they outlined when the whole "we are losing sponsorship" happened that they would be openly moderating. at this point it was quite a while ago, maybe a month or two. its in the rules also.
edit: i have been beaten, sorry for double post.
Ramuh.Krizz
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 17:26:21
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...
I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.
I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences. If you're not going to actually contribute to the thread, just stop posting.
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Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 17:26:27
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :< But I don't wanna I have returned from the bowels of mordor
And Austar, I'm sincerely disappoint
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4560
By Asura.Alymorel 2011-08-27 17:26:32
Are you kidding me? Look at the post above you.
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
they outlined when the whole "we are losing sponsorship" happened that they would be openly moderating. at this point it was quite a while ago, maybe a month or two. its in the rules also.
edit: i have been beaten, sorry for double post. The exact phrasing was:
Admin and Moderator Procedure:
- We will no longer attempt to "soft" correct differences with users over private messages, in order to be more consistent and visible in our disciplinary policies.
- We are tentatively removing the soft prohibition on discussing disciplinary measures taken against a given user in public. (This means if someone is doing something blatantly wrong, it will be stated that they were banned in the thread.)
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:27:57
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Well after failing to solve the mystery of the pharoah's tomb you kiiiinda need this to bounce back :< But I don't wanna I have returned from the bowels of mordor
And Austar, I'm sincerely disappoint
I tried... :( Let's just go hang out in some theme song related thread, it's boring here.
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:28:33
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »If anyone feels this thread is not accurately discussing the mechanics of the game...
I already explained in detail why that's not happening. They're guessing when attack is more beneficial than attack speed.
I even provided an analogy to show exactly why that kind of thing is dangerous. And despite argument to the contrary saying that its a completely unrelated issue, its almost identical. The general forum-going portion of the playerbase understands accuracy and attack speed a bit better than they did the in past, but next to none of them understand in depth matters of pDIF differences. If you're not going to actually contribute to the thread, just stop posting.
Its a perfectly valid contribution. Opposition to untested, unqualified theorizing is completely necessary.
Bahamut.Zellc
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 643
By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:32:40
i do not wish to join in the attack against dodu. like ena said there are some truths in what he said on page one.
i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.
rather than just saying people are flat out wrong, try posting some sets that you believe are another option for players who are seeking guidance to take notes from. no need for such volatility, we can communicate like civil people with a little effort.
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Carbuncle.Kerokun
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 488
By Carbuncle.Kerokun 2011-08-27 17:33:09
I use ye olde capped haste White Tathlum/Zelus Tiara/Tactical Mantle TP set, and I feel satisfied.
Yet I used to use the Theory 1 set or whichever. I haven't done any testing, but the extra couple points of haste feel gewd. |3
Bismarck.Elanabelle said: »With that in mind, I think it's ridiculous for a SAM to use White Tathlum, Unkai Mimikazari, and Tactical Mantle just so s/he can also use Zelus Tiara. Doing that surrenders (among other things) over 50 Attack from one's TP set (8 from Thew, 20 from Atheling, 15 from the penalty on Tactical, 3 from the STR from Bushinomimi/Thew, 5 from the Skill on Bushinomimi). :< This makes me sad because I didn't quite realize how much attack I was giving up from capped dat haste. I detested the idea of swapping Tactical in for Atheling by any means necessary, but for some reason, 35 seemed manageable but 50 seems horrid.
This is my "insecure-about-my-TP-set" face:
D:
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 17:36:24
attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.
But that's just it! I'm not claiming that what I'm doing or what I think is correct, and I'm certainly not saying anyone contributing is acting out of malice. All I'm saying is that that the OP, Ironguy, etc are not going to produce the results they're looking for, and that instead of compiling lists of what works for them, they should be PM'ing people who can actually do the work that needs to be done.
Bahamut.Zellc
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 643
By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 17:51:21
attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute.
But that's just it! I'm not claiming that what I'm doing or what I think is correct, and I'm certainly not saying anyone contributing is acting out of malice. All I'm saying is that that the OP, Ironguy, etc are not going to produce the results they're looking for, and that instead of compiling lists of what works for them, they should be PM'ing people who can actually do the work that needs to be done.
while that does make sense, i fail to see how that is a contribution to the thread. if those people wanted to contribute to this thread they would get to it when they could. no real need to say anyone is inadequate to post something about a job that they take the time to post in a thread dedicated to the job. i just think it is very polite imo.
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Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-08-27 17:54:44
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 18:04:55
I know it's cool to hate on Dodu, but his points are valid. Lots of speculation being used here to push ideas without a lot to back them up.
Zellc said: i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute. You've got that backwards. Disregarding the concrete nature of the game's equations in favor of mercurial opinions is a poor way to contribute when discussing game mechanics.
So the question i have at the moment is, so its a waste to go the zelus route on SAM correct? Potentially correct in that that last bit of haste may or (often) may not be the preferable option in a 5-hit, but incorrect insofar as you should be using a 6-hit and thus Zelus Tiara is a go.
They're almost identical on stuff where you have no problem capping hitrate (somewhat favoring 6-hit, especially w/ Ganesha's Mala and/or haste buffs inflating the impact of the haste difference), but the moment acc starts to matter you'll find the 5-hit suffering in a big way. 6-hit can maintain meat instead of pizza over a greater range while still capping hitrate and still has the option for pizza after that.
Quote: Also (and this may help those who don't know) it's a huge mistake to make only 1 WS set for SAM, you definitely want to do one with berserk up and down. Half correct. Having two sets is better than having one provided the following conditions are met:
1) You tie use of each set to more factors than simply whether or not Zerk is up. Because Berserk is multiplicative rather than additive, it doesn't make the attack you already have any weaker provided you're not capping cRatio (variations in pDIF equations exist but you get the point).
2) You use SAM in a wide enough variety of conditions to justify differentiation. A pretty reasonable assumption, but if you only pull out SAM for a niche subset of NMs, especially in something like Voidwatch where there's no fodder for variety, then a capped cRatio set isn't doing anything for you. That said, differentiation may or may not even be needed right now given Faz/+1/R Mail.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-08-27 18:06:18
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.
Because he's not contributing and just causing ***for no reason.
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Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 18:08:43
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.
Because he's not contributing and just causing ***for no reason.
Having the correct answer is not a prerequisite for telling people that an answer is wrong.
Ramuh.Krizz
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 18:13:49
That's enough.
Bahamut.Zellc
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 643
By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 18:49:44
I know it's cool to hate on Dodu, but his points are valid. Lots of speculation being used here to push ideas without a lot to back them up.
Zellc said: i will say this though: there are many ways to get from point A to point B, what is optimal is left for the user to discern. attacking this thread because the sets that you or other self proclaimed "elite" players use is a poor way to contribute. You've got that backwards. Disregarding the concrete nature of the game's equations in favor of mercurial opinions is a poor way to contribute when discussing game mechanics.
so does that mean that you agree with dodu when he/she says that the people who posted the first few groups of item sets should not have posted/have no business posting what they think would be helpful to a person inquiring on a direction to go in terms of gear selection?(thats a run-on sentence and i apologize, i should have structured that question better.)
maybe their current gear doesnt permit that they use what currently best in some slots. that doesnt make what they post any less helpful than the next persons post. everyone has an opinion on what they think could be best, and thats why posting the different option for tping was so helpful imo.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 18:54:15
I'd appreciate you rephrasing the first question, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking and I don't want to answer it wrong because I think it needs to be answered to clear up a misperception.
Quote: maybe their current gear doesnt permit that they use what currently best in some slots. that doesnt make what they post any less helpful than the next persons post. At least in Clinpachi's case, it wasn't as you say. It was "here are the options, which one to use". If less-than-perfect gear is what's available, then you discuss gear choices with that in mind, but you're imposing a limitation that Clinpachi did not.
Quote: everyone has an opinion on what they think could be best, and thats why posting the different option for tping was so helpful imo. You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you? There is one and only one best set for a specific situation and that is not going to change because of somebody's opinion unless they have the power to actually alter the very code on which the entire game runs to suit said opinion.
Carbuncle.Sevourn
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9481
By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-08-27 18:55:40
You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you?
i'm so aroused right now i don't know what to do with myself
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Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-27 18:56:45
Carbuncle.Sevourn said: »You're still not getting this whole thing about opinions not bearing weight in an environment dictated entirely by algorithms, are you?
i'm so aroused right now i don't know what to do with myself
I was just about to quote this.
And into the txt document it goes.
Samurai Discussion #93520123
I know there is a ton of these theads but most are old or locked. So upon returning after a few month hiatus i have been researching around both FFXIAH and Blugartr for some information regarding Fudo sets. It appears the extra 5STP we received recently mixes things up a little bit and there is about 1,000 variations + outdated crap.
With that being said i can say that being gone a bit makes the math a bit rusty
I'll start off posting my theory or anticipated gear for myself and let people judge what could be wrong/ideals for discussion (There is a ton of it i know). I will also post some stuff I've seen around BG or FFXI and inquire about those as well. I included sources of discussion as well as noted sets that peaked interest.
Theory 1
The set above is what I first anticipated as something typical. The biggest mistake i seen with most sets is there was a lack of berserk down or berserk up dependency. Then i saw something along these lines on Blue Gartr. My theoretical set features 24% haste with a 5 hit setup.
Ironguy Suggestion Theory (FFXIAH Post)
TP
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WS (Berserk not defined)
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This set looks very similar to mine, however the neck and ring are a big questionable item for me. Also it was suggested that the earring be augmented with Acc/Regain for TP phase instead of my theory which entailed TP bonus+25 and attack+4. This was also the original source of info on ire+1/bier+1 beating ele torque/belt for fudo.
BG Capped Haste Theory (Blue Gartr Post)
TP
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WS (Berserk not defined)
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At first glance this looks like a bit of a mess, the weapon skill set doesn't sit right with me at all and it was made relevant that beir belt+1 and ire torque+1 beat the elemental combo by a noticeable amount. I like the sound of capped haste though and part of the argument of this set was that it's a 5 hit that would 3 hit in a single zanshin proc during hasso with at least 4/5 Ikishoten.
Also don't be trollin'z in this thread or krizz will pwn you, glad FFXIAH mods buckled down on the retards.
Sources of research:
Blue Gartr Post - "What is better" (Page 149)
FFXIAH 5-Hit Masamune Thread (Page 8)
FFXIAH Tachi Fudo Thread
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