Victory Smite Better Than Pummel?

like the title says, is smite better than pummel for pup? wanna here some feedback before i decide to chloris it up.

Smite is much better. its a 4hit WS with 2.25fTP (so technically 9.0fTP) where Stringing Pummel is a 6-hit with 0.75(?) so... 4.5fTP

So right off the bat, mods not including, Victory Smite has 2x The base power as Stringing pummel

If you're doing Chloris and not rev fists, you get ODD, makes no diff which one is better, unless you have kenk, lol nothing else is even going to come close enough to matter

That's not how ftp works lol.

FTP is only applied to the first hit of any ws.

Edit: Base ftp, gorget stuff etc; ever other his is 1.0

I hear Smite is much better in Abyssea. Outside, they're much more comparable, with Smite only slightly pulling ahead (in terms of WS numbers). If you want the best, yes, the Empy wins for a number of reasons.

What's ODD?

Occaisionally does Double Damage.

Ah okay, thanks

That would be true if every hit reflected on the ftp, ie 2.25 + 2.25 +2.25 etc etc, but it doesnt. After the first it its 1.0.

Smite would be:
2.25 +1.0 +1.0 +1.0 DA/TA hits 1.0 +1.0 +1.0 +1.0 so a 4hit is 5.25 with a 8hit being 9.25.

SP:
.75 +1.0 +1.0 +1.0 +1.0 +1.0 DA hits 1.0+1.0
with 6hits being 5.75 and 8 being 7.75.

60% str mod vs 35% str/vit mod would probably depend how much greater overall str was vs vit. For instance youll probably hover around 150-160 str and vit with cruor/food/base stats. Gear wise I dont know what pup gets, but lets say +50 str(no reason to add vit over str outside it being already there, since str gives attack and is the same % mod)

200*.35 = 70, 150(vit)*.35 = 52 (70+52)=122 * .85 =103

200*.6 = 120
120* .85 = 102

Roughly even, add another 50 str

250*.35 = 87 (87+52)= 139 *.85= 118

250*.6 = 150
150* .85= 127

No surprise there since more str will favor the smite build. Anyhow overall its still a small increase, considering a full 6hit is about 9.5% stronger from ftp vs full 4hit smite. Youll have to figure out the averages in swings for ws(factor in your accuracy/da/ta) to see what it comes out to be.

@OP,
Either way the answer is simple, get Vere for your pup, the aftermath ODD is great for your job and out does the difference in weaponskill Im sure. Its not uncommon to see ODD crits for 700-1200 each hit on mnk, so I would assume pup could come close to that, mind you potentially lower since you dont have impetus.

so what if i went for rev fists +2?

There would be no point in getting rev fists +2 since 1) it has no aftermath and 2) theres no reason to get victory smite if you have string pummel outside of using it with Vere for the aftermath.

So if you are not in a situation where you can get Veretehgara.... what -should- you get? Soloing Walk of Echoes for 30 coins is going to take a long time.... so what should you get?
You are also saying Victory Smite is not worth it unless you can get the full Veretehgara thingy?
-R

EDIT: Nevermind, I thought Rev. Fists +2 were worse than that. I'm not sure what I'd go with off the top of my head honestly.

Hito's analysis neglected two things that I feel should be mentioned: Pummel is two hits from the hits/round cap (not terribly important outside Abyssea but a small limiting factor inside), and Smite likely has a higher innate critrate than Pummel. Just something to bear in mind.

What is the crit rate on Smite? I haven't found anything on it yet.

>_> Rev Fists +2 is perfectly fine if you honestly want to spend the time to farm the 30 coins. Never hurts to have another high damage WS beyond Pummel.

But that's up to you. PUP does well without Smite. If you have an empy group, get Smite. If you won't, you can live without Rev Fists +2 or you can farm up a pair. (What I did since I'm mostly a solo PUP and working on Kannagi over Vere.)

If Smite has a better crit rate than pummel, then yes it would be better to go with whatever knuckle is within your grasp. However if they are around the same(which is what Im basing this off by just to keep the playing field even) pummel is slightly better.

I dont think it being a 6hit really is much of a factor outside of using Apoc + A&O where smite is going to be TA 1/4 of the time.

I honestly hope smite has a better crit rate than pummel, but isnt Ukko said/rumored to be around 20%? It would make sense to keep dual wield jobs under that unless SE made them all within that margin. Considering that while I have seen VS rival if not beat out ukko ws it normally takes a full 8 round + w/e amount of hits from impetus which leads me to believe its less.

I honestly have no idea. We don't have much data on Empyrean WS critrate bonuses - it seems like I saw some data on Ukko's at some point but can't recall where nor the results, and Hi is reportedly 15%/20%/25% at 100/200/300 TP according to JP testing. I've been meaning to test Chant du Cygne but I'm currently working six days a week and generally busy on my day off so there's been no opportunity to do so.

Like I said, small. It would only be a factor ~4% of the time with Apoc and Epona's, then you consider that it's a relatively minor increase by that point due to all the hits involved... Not even a 1% increase. Mostly notable in that Smite spikes higher (***).

I've heard everything from doubling your critrate (obviously false) to 20-30%. I'm not sure what to believe, but I'd at least be willing to suspect that Empyrean WS critrates are higher than your standard critrate bonuses for older weaponskills in their respective weapon classes (1h/2h).

I can tell you this, when I have time to play at work I have no gear swaps and am usually sporting minikin and mounted champion to skill up puppet. In those situations (aka crappy gear and atma) Pummel seems to do a bit better than smite. Of course, that doesn't take into consideration ODD, but it just seems like smite pulls ahead when using real gear whereas they are pretty close with crap gear.

Now then, that's the most subjective and least math filled post of the thread.

Oh? Learn something new everyday!

Must have been thinking about Evisc too much. I recall reading someone saying Evisc was basically 5.0fTP because of 5 hit and got the impression fTP carried to each hit.

Makes perfect sense in retrospect that its 1.0...

Thought Sawtell (sp) posted it as ~35% crit @100 on ukko's. If I'm not busy later, I can test Smite, which will be annoying as hell but I'll do it.

Edit: this guy this post says 30%

I can honestly see that being a possibility. 15% isnt too far fetched for an empyrean ws critrate.
Yep, usually the 7-8 hitters. I think 15% crit rate though is going to still put VS on par with pummel, it would have to be somewhere around 20% to be better. Atleast thats what Im getting with Kines spread. Used a farely buffed NM aswell, lv 100 def500-550. I did it on the monk spread sheet mind you but I didnt include impetus and I lowered the h2h to account for a pup's h2h rating. Monk has better str/attack gear than a pup does so imo that also favored smite which still needed 15%+ to beat SP even with that said. Dont know over all I still think SP is a better ws over VS for a pup. I think Ive also read pups saying they were parsing better numbers with SP over VS slightly, Ill have to go read up on that and see if it was actually parsing or just eyeballing.

Seems plausible. You could establish a 25% minimum critrate bonus with reasonable certainty using RR + GH and no critrate gear in Abyssea; if your first hit always crits then you have 100% critrate and thus you must have at least a 25% critrate bonus on WS. You could get 30% if you're willing to temporarily delevel critrate merits to 0.

30% would certainly be interesting... 40% base, 45% with Rancor Collar and up to 55% with Ravager's Mask, Zahak's Mail, and augmented Heca legs, even if dDEX is floored. Makes capping dDEX less important, which isn't a bad thing given how mediocre most of WAR's trades are.

15% base critrate seems pretty likely from loleyeballing my Hi damage. RR/GH with Rancor Collar still sees some noncrits, but not often.