Populism And Nationalism On The Rise In Europe

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Populism and nationalism on the rise in Europe
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By Odinz 2016-01-07 16:42:37
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Jassik said: »
Odinz said: »
It is excellent we are focusing on some few displaced refugees and allowing our decades of diplomatic progress and enlightenment crumble before our eyes, nothing more important to worry about like a North Korean Hydrogen Bomb. That is not important at all. Get those poor refugees.

Analysts have said that the size of the explosion wasn't on par with a thermonuclear weapon. More than likely, it was a simple atomic bomb like they've tested in the past and the "hydrogen" part is just propaganda. Still concerning, of course, but not as bad as initial reports.

Yes, but I see all kinds of crazy in how they announced. This is like a vanilla wow pvp guild pre-event pep talk by a guild leader announcing glory to the horde.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-01-12 16:41:38
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The Danish government continues to try to make Denmark a less preferred country for asylum seekers and refugees.

The Danish Immigration and Integration Department has interpreted the wording of a proposal which has broad support in the Danish parliament. Denmark is about to start confiscating and selling valuables asylum seekers bring along, according to Swedish Radio, citing the Danish newspaper Politiken.

Asylum seekers will be allowed to keep the wedding ring, the mobile phone and some cash. Other valuables will be sold and the remaining money seized to finance the cost of the asylum application.

The Department interprets the proposal so that the refugees are allowed to keep personal valuables such as the mobile phone, the wedding ring, the clock and cash up to 3,000 Danish kroner ($440). Any remaining valuables will be seized and sold, and the money is taken as payment for the asylum process.
At this point maybe it's better to just close your borders if the alternative is to rob those seeking refugee. Also as the opposers pointed out, way too similar to a nazi law that targeted jews back in 30s.
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-04-29 15:10:23
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The death of big established parties

Austria had its first round of presidential election last weekend. Winner is a far right-politician. The so called people's parties (a term describing established big parties that since WWII were able to govern a country alone or with a very tiny unior partner) are loosing ground in quite a few countries. In Austria it has come to a point in which, in the next general election (2018), even a grand coalition becomes questionable as the trend suggests they won't get 50% by then combined.

Is it even a bad thing one could ask that parliaments become more splitted. Not at first. Many of these new parties are mono-themed parties which could help the electorate to formulate a clearer direction. It becomes a problem though when 3 or more parties are required to form a government. They usually do not last a full term. Governmental instability easily leads to hold ons of investments.

How did it came to this though? Different Countries, different reasons. In Germany it came to this because of 3 major points. Economical crises (known as Euro-crisis), demographical restructure (aging population meets huge wave of young Refugees) and lastly the fight over the political mid.
The 2 big fractions in the german parliament both followed the slogan: Elections are won in mid.
The current head of government and the previous one both led their parties to become basically the same on all big themes.
Leaving the two wings exposed. In the next general election in Germany there could be up to 7 parties in 6 fractions in parliament.

Share the story of your country.
Anti-establishment movements within your people's parties count as well of course. Would be nice if you could describe to us what you think or fear your country will become if the situation goes on (too many parties in parliament or win of your local extremist party [potent junior partner scenario appreciated too if it is the most likely scenario]) as well.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-04-30 06:12:00
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Austria
Austria's grand idea of a wall on the Brenner could have bad economic repercussions for us, so atm we're not exactly their biggest fans. And it doesn't help that Germany pretty much said "welp, that's Italy's problem" and don't care. We're going to end up being isolated, I mean it's not an embargo, but still...

As for the far right, it's gaining ground here too(like in the rest of the west), but thankfully not enough like some other countries. They are however sweeping people from the moderate right and getting bigger, mostly cause Berlusconi is old as *** and no one buys his tired rhetoric anymore. And this is killing the centre-right leading all the conservatives to the Northern League(ahoy fascism).
The centre-left is even worse. It keeps breaking apart into smaller parties who can't get along for very stupid and petty reasons, but it is enough to make them so weak that they're never going to get the majority come next elections unless some strong figure emerges in the next years to unite them. Highly unlikely.
In all this who is winning then? Well, just like in the rest of southern Europe we got since last elections(2013 iirc)this huge populist(but not far right) movement that is scooping all the voters with their anti-establishment propaganda(5 Stars Movement). These guys are absolutely useless, all they do in the parliament is stall ***cause they say no to everything just to spite the "corrupt politicians". By all means, we all want a more honest state, but putting everything in a lock just because is so demented. And it doesn't help that their leader is a complete moron who talks about conspiracies all the time(Grillo is a satirical comedian, and he should have sticked to that).

If nothing big happens in the near future next elections are all going to the populists, with a worrying margin of growth for the far right. Because moderate conservatives are disappearing entirely, and the left is in the hands of a bunch of idiots. What a bright future for Italy.
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-02 16:58:57
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I heard that for now the planning for closure has been stopped during talks between Italy and Austria (28th or 29th april). I doubt though the agreement will last if the summer will unfold its full potential of 200k or more people coming via the Italy route.
I can only apologise for our politicians. It's like they learned nothing from last year. Ignoring the problems of other members won't work. In the Turkey-deal thread I mentioned that outsourcing this problem won't work. We need either a European solution on our ground or an UN solution in safe zones near the areas where the problem's root is. We shouldn't fight within the Union but unite and put pressure on the countries outside of the union taking back their people if the application for asylum was denied.
But instead our minister of the interior dares to threat Italy that they shouldn't think of guiding them north if the wave comes. Our foreign minister stays completely silence. Such a disgrace.
On a positive note (but it is a really small one) I heard of italian and german citizen protesting against the closure. And a few German EU politician who in the government's party saying that we should not leave Italy alone. (won't mention the opposition parties though as they tend to forget their opinions and principles after being elected into the government)

I remember that Grillo, after being insulted as clown by a chancellor-candidate here in Germany, we got a somewhat indepth explanation of him on a few news channels when it became a short international issue. I'm surprised he still holds his movement together. Is Italy split in North and South in politics as well? When you spoke of Lega Nord before I only remember events that were geographically really only in the north, like the youngest mayor (or something like that?).
Doesn't sound like the young Renzi had much impact on the worries of the anti-establishment groups then. During the EU/EURO-summits last year I got the image of him to be quite frank in voicing his opinions and demands. Doesn't that help him at all at home?

Hopefully the outlook for Italy's politicial stability can be improved by an unforeseen act of European Teamwork during the summer. I would prefer it before summer, but I doubt it looking at my politicians.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-02 17:26:38
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Is Italy split in North and South in politics as well?
It used to be quite heavily. Though it wasn't so much political in nature(though some regions have a tradition in always voting in one direction) as much as cultural. Today thankfully it's not so divided anymore, though there is still some lingering "racism" in the north towards everyone from the south. Especially in the Venice region(where the Northern League is born- it used to be a movement who wanted the north to secede from the south..)

Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Doesn't sound like the young Renzi had much impact on the worries of the anti-establishment groups then. During the EU/EURO-summits last year I got the image of him to be quite frank in voicing his opinions and demands. Doesn't that help him at all at home?
Renzi is the typical politician. He speaks in politics, he acts in politics. He's not some new thing, just a very assertive guy which made him look like a revolutionary.
Ideologically I'm close to him and I'm glad he pushes for some things I care about. But on the other side he's an extremely unlikable guy and some of his actions leave me very perplexed.
He's not popular, and not just cause he's not likable. You see the majority of people here blame all of their problems on the Euro and Renzi is a very pro-EU guy. It's why Grillo and his party is so popular, they keep screaming about ripping Europe apart and leaving it forever. A lot of people think that is the panacea to all ills, simply cause in recent memory the economic crisis has been dire here and it's easy to go "but back when we had lira.."
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-04 08:59:46
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Used to be? Did they stop all ambitions towards an independent Padania? Does it inlcude giving up on more autonomy for that region as well?


The economic crisis and the aftermath are indeed a valid problem.
I only know the italian numbers up to 2013 and especially the figures for the youth worsened even after the peak of the crisis. I doubt though that without the Euro things would be much different. It is the flow of money that changed after the crisis which hinders the usual recovery cycle of the past. For the moment it looks like this is the new base level instead of a crisis level.
End of last year/beginning of this year I read about the bad condition of italian banks and the very high rate of non-performing loans, do you think a new crisis will break out in italy this year?
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-04 09:10:24
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Used to be? Did they stop all ambitions towards an independent Padania? Does it inlcude giving up on more autonomy for that region as well?
It's a thing that still exists(always in Venice), but it's much smaller(though still significant)and it's not the party's motto anymore. That was mainly the ambition of its funder leader Bossi, the new one Salvini instead is focused on a strategy that brings the widest range of people under their banner, so instead of alienating all the people from the south with the idea of secession, he just expanded the hard-right populist rethoric to the rest of the country.

Bismarck.Leneth said: »
do you think a new crisis will break out in italy this year?
I don't have the knowledge in economics to make this kind of prediction. Some banks were bailed out of trouble this year, with massive backlash from people who were screwed in the process, further putting people against Renzi.
While I understand the sentiment of "why are people screwed but banks are saved?", it's certainly unfair. But banks are kinda the pillars of the entire country, can't help but saving them, we need them. If anything we should see how to avoid such things from happening again(but don't ask me about that because it's not my field).
As for anecdotal, I have someone in my family who is a bank director and last xmas pretty much told us the situation for banks has never been worse than now, and banks have screwed up royally in trying to cope with the crisis and eventually everyone is going to end up belly up.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2016-05-04 13:28:09
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This lady popped up on some sites after she stood in front of the neo-nazis protesting on May 1st here in Sweden (which they always do)



Surprised so many took notice of it
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2016-05-04 13:34:02
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Found an English version of the story

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Tess Asplund, an anti-racism activist from Stockholm, was in Borlänge to protest against a march by hundreds of neo-Nazis through the centre of the town on May 1st.

Traditionally a left-wing stronghold, where big Labour Day rallies are the norm, Borlänge has recently seen many voters lurch to the far-right.

The uniformed neo-Nazis were however far outnumbered by counter demonstrators like Asplund, who described the moment captured on camera to local radio station P4 Dalarna.

“I don’t think I even thought about it really, I just jumped out,” she said.

“I just thought: you shouldn’t be here. Then one of them stared at me and I stared back. He didn’t say anything and neither did I. Then the police came fairly quickly and took me away.”

Asplund said she often raised her fist at anti-fascist rallies in a gesture borrowed from Nelson Mandela.

The picture spread rapidly on social media on Tuesday as Swedes hailed the iconography of a lone woman bravely standing up to dark forces.

The picture was taken by David Lagerlöf, a photographer for Expo, an anti-racism group co-founded in 1995 by Millennium author Stieg Larsson.

Lagerlöf explained what he saw:

“These are the [Nordic Resistance Movement’s] leadership figures slowly walking towards her, and it looks like hers and the leader’s eyes meet, that they are staring at each other,” he told the TT newswire.

"When they are quite close to each other the police come along and push her away."

Social media users are already calling the shot the photo of the year, with many comparing it to an image often referred to as ‘The old lady with the bag’.

Hans Runesson’s classic photo from 1985 depicts a woman in Växjö, southern Sweden, wielding a handbag as a weapon against a neo-Nazi demonstrator.

“I really don’t want to go that far, that picture is really iconic,” said Lagerlöf.

This is the pic it's been compared to






I guess it's not really the same as the other posts here but no one ever cares about European things in RP&R lol
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-04 13:50:06
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Bismarck.Dracondria said: »
I guess it's not really the same as the other posts here but no one ever cares about European things in RP&R lol
I'd love to contribute to this thread but I just don't know much about the current issues facing Europe beyond the economics and refugees.
 
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-04 14:13:23
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
But, as I have said before the rise of nationalism isn't unique to Europe. America is doing the same thing with Trump and the concept of the wall right now.
You don't need to know the current events to see history and the overall tone.
True, though I think it's worth observing how each country got there and where they go. It's a whole continent full of social experiments and there have always been lessons to take away from it.
 
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-04 14:39:22
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
Lessons, yes.

Lessons learned, no.
I'll take whatever leg up I can get in a game of Diplomacy.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2016-05-04 14:48:15
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Though there have been rumblings from discontent conservatives of the UK for the past decade, the UK's tenuous relationship with the EU finally snapping could embolden other nations to retreat from the EU.

The UK was not completely on board with Greece's bailout without shoring up securities for the people of the UK. Which is understandable, but Greece's instability over the years has been one of the contributing factors and brow raisers among UK conservatives.

You can look to the Scottish Independence Referendum two years ago as a microcosm of the economic apprehensions that we're seeing as the "Brexit" referendum is approaching.

UK's 'Out' camp lead narrows ahead of EU referendum: ICM poll

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The campaign for Britain to leave the European Union saw its lead narrow slightly over the rival "In" campaign, according to a weekly online poll published by opinion poll firm ICM on Tuesday.

Forty-five percent of voters were in favor of a so-called Brexit against 44 percent who believe Britain should remain in the 28-member bloc, not counting undecided voters, ICM said.

A similar poll published last week by ICM found 44 percent of voters wanted to remain in the EU compared with 46 percent who wanted to leave.

The latest survey, which was conducted between April 29 and May 3, was weighted to take into account the likelihood of respondents actually voting in the June 23 EU membership referendum, based on their comments, the polling firm said.

U.K. Banks Brace for ‘Brexit’ Ahead of EU Poll

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LONDON—As a U.K. referendum over whether to quit the European Union nears, British banks have battened down the hatches.

In the event of a “Brexit”—or a U.K. exit from the EU—bankers say frozen capital markets and sharp currency swings could make it harder for banks to fund their businesses.

To inoculate themselves ahead of the June 23 vote, British banks are maintaining extra stocks of assets that can easily be sold to fund their activities, tapping markets for funding earlier than planned and holding off issuing certain types of securities.

Lloyds Banking Group PLC has raised roughly £7 billion ($10.2 billion), or about half of its annual funding requirement in the first part of the year, according to a person familiar with the matter. “We went earlier than we were proposing to do,” George Culmer, Lloyds’s chief financial officer, said recently.

Barclays PLC is holding larger stocks of liquid assets than it would in normal circumstances, group finance director Tushar Morzaria told analysts last week.

Even deposit-rich banks like HSBC Holdings PLC are stepping up preparations. “We’re making sure that we’re extremely liquid over the June/July period,” HSBC Chief Executive Stuart Gulliver said on Tuesday.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC has held off issuing £2 billion of convertible bonds until after the referendum, according to a person familiar with the matter. Investor appetite for the bonds, which switch into shares if the bank is in trouble, has dried up making any issuance expensive. RBS completed most of its planned annual debt issuance in the first part of the year.

In February, the Bank of England began probing lenders’ vulnerability to financial-market turbulence in the wake of an exit vote, in particular heavy swings in the value of sterling. Bank officials say that 2014 balance sheet tests give them comfort that the British banking system would survive a major downturn. Nevertheless the central bank will hold three extra cash auctions in June to ensure lenders have access to liquidity ahead of the vote.

No bank wants to been seen tapping any Bank of England emergency funding after the vote. Hence the flurry of activity, says Chirantan Barua at Bernstein Research.

Unlike foreign banks based in the U.K., British lenders are less concerned about losing their right to “passport”—or sell their services across the EU. Most have already ratcheted back their European operations to refocus on their domestic market. Instead they worry about the impact of an economic slowdown in Britain hitting their balance sheets.

Economists warn that regardless of any potential long-term upsides of exiting the EU trading bloc, that there could be short term economic pain. Investment may dry up while the U.K. embarks on protracted negotiations over its future relationship with the EU. Housing prices could fall and economic growth could stall.

Market fears over Brexit have eased of late. Sterling has rallied in past weeks and there was strong international demand for U.K. government bonds at an auction late last month. ​

Nevertheless several British banks are dusting off contingency plans they prepared ahead of Scotland’s independence referendum in 2014. “It is a case of preparing for the worst, and hoping for the best,” said one British bank executive.

Brexit will leave 2 million Britons in legal limbo abroad, say peers

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Validating the rights of the 2 million Britons living in the EU after Brexit – and of EU citizens resident in Britain – would be a “complex and daunting task”, a cross-party parliamentary report will warn on Wednesday.

Negotiations might have to be prolonged beyond the two years allowed for, although the European parliament and individual member states could jeopardise any extension of the process, according to the House of Lords European Union committee.

Agreeing a trade deal with the EU is likely to take even longer, peers suggest, between four and nine years if past experience is anything to go by.

Despite the government’s repeated advice that the referendum vote will be final, the report points out that it would still be possible to reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU – for example if there was a change of government.

The 19-member committee, chaired by the former Conservative MP Lord Boswell of Aynho, avoided expressing any view on Brexit. Their review is based on testimony from two senior lawyers, Sir David Edward, a former judge at the court of justice of the European Union, and Prof Derrick Wyatt QC, emeritus professor of law at Oxford University.

In its conclusions, the committee said: “There is nothing in article 50 [the only exit route to leave the treaty on European Union] formally to prevent a member state from reversing its decision to withdraw in the course of the withdrawal negotiations. The political consequences of such a change of mind would, though, be substantial.

“The European parliament’s right not to give its consent to the adoption of the withdrawal agreement would give it considerable influence. One of the most important aspects of the withdrawal negotiations would be determining the acquired rights of the 2 million or so UK citizens living in other member states, and equally of EU citizens living in the UK. This would be a complex and daunting task.”

The report added: “No firm prediction can be made as to how long the negotiations on withdrawal and a new relationship would take if the UK were to vote to leave the EU. It is clear, though, that they would take several years – trade deals between the EU and non-EU states have taken between four and nine years on average.”

The committee states that if there was a vote to leave then it would be in everyone’s interest to achieve a negotiated settlement. That would probably require extending the negotiating period beyond the two years provided for in article 50 of the treaty on European Union. The requirement for unanimity with the EU, however, means that such agreement cannot be guaranteed.

In his evidence, Wyatt told peers that: “It is estimated that 2 million Brits live in other EU countries … Take elderly people who have lived for 10 years in Spain. After five years, they acquired a right of permanent residence as citizens of the union and that includes access to the Spanish healthcare system.

“If we leave, what do we do about vested rights? Do we recognise rights to permanent residents that have arisen? What transitional rights do we give somebody who has been working for four years in the UK and has children at school and so forth?”


Fear of a vote to leave the EU, and in its wake healthcare and pension losses, is driving Britons from the continent back to the UK, says a broadsheet

He added: “Let us not forget that for every example in the UK there is an example of a UK citizen elsewhere. We would want to tidy that up. My guess is that the inclination of government and parliament would be to be generous as regards those who had already made their lives in the UK, knowing that it would be likely to be reciprocated.”

The difficulties of negotiating a separation should not be underestimated. Addressing the committee, Edward concluded: “The long-term ghastliness of the legal complications is almost unimaginable.”

Commenting on the findings, Boswell said: “Withdrawal would mean difficult and lengthy negotiations. It’s not possible to predict exactly how long it would take, but comparable international trade deals have taken on average between four and nine years.

“The rights of some 2 million UK citizens living abroad would need to be determined, as would the rights of a similar number of EU citizens living in the UK. This is complex stuff – you are talking about rights to residence, to healthcare and to schooling, about maintenance payments and access to children, about research projects and contracts that cross borders …Sorting all this out would be a daunting task.”

In a separate development, two expatriate Britons have been given leave to pursue their legal challenge against the government’s decision to exclude those those who have been living abroad for more than 15 years from the referendum.

Harry Shindler, a 94-year-old second world war veteran who lives in Italy, and lawyer Jacquelyn MacLennan, who lives in Belgium, lost their claim in the London high court last week. The case has been brought on their behalf by the law firm Leigh Day on a no win, no fee basis.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2016-05-04 15:04:05
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Kind of veering away from the course, Spain's constant state of economic limbo since the global recession...Why didn't they depose of their monarchy instead of cutting their budget cyclically?
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-10 14:27:23
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
extremist party
Here it was the other way around with vote-fishing. AfD was first a mono-themed party about the Euro and opened up to the far-right till it was overtaken by those. These professors should have known better what happens when one plays with fire..
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
banks
I agree with your opinion of unfair but necessary.
The anecdote fits what I have been hearing as well.
The major international media seem to have discovered the issue now. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/battle-prop-up-italy-banks-eu-brexit-grexit-bad-loans
As layperson who keeps attention to these kind of topics for years, I cannot see how this will end well. Hopefully they can come up with a technical trick to push this issue back at least 4 years.

Another news from yesterday:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/09/werner-faymann-quits-as-austrian-chancellor
I have not looked into it seriously yet, but apparently he stepped down because his natural voters left because he followed the far-right pressure.
One can only hope that the electorate accepts this symbolism and moves more into the mid again.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-10 14:35:19
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
One can only hope that the electorate accepts this symbolism and moves more into the mid again.
I wonder about that...it seems the far right is already on the highway to gaining full control. Last I heard only two parties were actually left(far right and green) and the bloody nationalists are still the ones with overwhelmingly stronger support.
Austria is in a spiral to a pretty dark hole. And while it's not the first(hello Poland)it could certainly affect us in Italy as neighbours.
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-23 05:47:57
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Yesterday was the second round of the presidential election in Austria. It seems to be a very close result. The 700.000 votes via letters will decide the winner. In the first round those voters favoured the former green politician over the right wing populist. Results are expected for the evening today.
According to german TV channels, first results of the psephology claim that the change of the chancellor did have an effect which supported the former green politician.
The other big support came from direct calls to vote for him of many different political parties.

That does create a new problem though. Even with the united support from left to mid, the right wing populist still got half of all the votes. Even if the pro-europe diplomatic candidate should win, I cannot really call this a victory due to this fact.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-05-23 07:01:27
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Goes to show that the European Union should have never been permitted to grow to the extent that it has, beyond the EEC (European Economic Community). The EEC was founded in 1951 between Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany to strengthen Western Europe against the Soviet Bloc in the east. Denmark, Ireland, Norway and the United Kingdom later joined in the early 1960's. Notice what all those nations had and largely still have in common? Strong GDP. Now we have the likes of Greece, Spain, Romania, Poland and many other nations with relatively weaker GDP and fractured political systems/societies understandably seeking economic and political union to make up for the unfixed flaws in their own. Who on earth thought this was a good idea?

Seeking total economic and political union in such a varied continent such as Europe was utterly *** stupid and I hope it gets thrown on the ever-mounting pile of failed socialist experiments. Like most liberal ideas it sounded good on paper and as a crowd pleaser to the ignorant but in reality it was found completely unfit for purpose.

Britain should leave the European Union and Germany should follow it.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-23 07:07:15
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Italy has a strong gdp?

Ruaumoko said: »
Britain should leave the European Union and Germany should follow it.
Terrible idea.

The problem of the EU is that it's a half baked project. We want a federal Europe however most countries aren't ready for that and so we started with just a partial federation that causes a lot of issues.

For the time being we need to re-educate people and fight these nationalist crazies popping all over the place.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-23 08:09:50
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Italy has a strong gdp?
Yes, according to IMF, WB, and CIA.

Italy ranks 12th in global GDP by IMF and CIA, 11th by WB

Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ruaumoko said: »
Britain should leave the European Union and Germany should follow it.
Terrible idea.

The problem of the EU is that it's a half baked project. We want a federal Europe however most countries aren't ready for that and so we started with just a partial federation that causes a lot of issues.
Very terrible idea for GB and Germany to leave the EU. I mean, who's going to pay for all of the rest of the union's stuff?

Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For the time being we need to re-educate people and fight these nationalist crazies popping all over the place.
And make them believe in your own brand of crazy? Pass.
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 Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-23 09:34:18
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Italy has a strong gdp?
Yes, according to IMF, WB, and CIA.

Italy ranks 12th in global GDP by IMF and CIA, 11th by WB
The answer is of course no.
If one reads the post of Ruaumoko it is clear that he refers to the per capita ranking. Otherwise the statement Netherlands > Poland for example doesn't make sense. And Seha replied to that post. In those (ppp and nominal) Italy ranks in the late 20s early 30s (same institutes as you quoted.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
Wether that is strong or not we again stay within the base post. He listed Spain as weak and Italy as strong. In those rankings they are either next to each other or not far apart.

There are many more factors which decide wether it is profitable for Germany to stay within the EU or not. If one includes the benefits of something like the decision by chinese investors to use us as access point for global trade we get more money from staying within the EU than not.

It doesn't matter to us wether an US citzen passes up on our education or not. Important for us is that people understand what the words of these nationalists mean before those get into power.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-23 09:59:27
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
The answer is of course no.
If one reads the post of Ruaumoko it is clear that he refers to the per capita ranking. Otherwise the statement Netherlands > Poland for example doesn't make sense. And Seha replied to that post. In those (ppp and nominal) Italy ranks in the late 20s early 30s (same institutes as you quoted.)
...
Wether that is strong or not we again stay within the base post. He listed Spain as weak and Italy as strong. In those rankings they are either next to each other or not far apart.
A) Even if you do it per capita Italy still has a strong economic system in place. Your sources prove that also.

Unless you think whoever has the strongest per capita is strong and everyone else is weak, which is a very weak argument to present. I don't know, either you are arguing with me just to argue or you don't know the difference of a country in the 90th percentile of economic power and strength.

B) If your argument is current trends, you may have a point. Spain's economic power is falling, so is Greece. I'm not sure if you noticed, but both countries are suffering from a large recession/depression due to overspending with their respective governments (high unemployment rate doesn't help matters either).

I'm sure you know the economic trends of those countries have been falling, but either way, they are still stronger than 2/3rds of the world at large (based by region/countries, not by economic power).


Bismarck.Leneth said: »
There are many more factors which decide wether it is profitable for Germany to stay within the EU or not. If one includes the benefits of something like the decision by chinese investors to use us as access point for global trade we get more money from staying within the EU than not.
I know that. Germany alone leaving the EU would collapse the system, and also destroy any outstanding debt owed to Germany, which would also greatly hurt their economy as a whole (defaults aren't pretty). That is also a good reason for Germany to not leave the EU yet.

Bismarck.Leneth said: »
It doesn't matter to us wether an US citzen passes up on our education or not. Important for us is that people understand what the words of these nationalists mean before those get into power.
I don't get it. Why would US citizens play a factor in EU affairs?

You deal with your own ***. Let us deal with our own ***. Don't expect the US to bail you out, and we won't expect the EU to bail us out.

We both have our own problems to deal with.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-05-23 10:56:34
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I know that. Germany alone leaving the EU would collapse the system, and also destroy any outstanding debt owed to Germany, which would also greatly hurt their economy as a whole (defaults aren't pretty). That is also a good reason for Germany to not leave the EU yet.

Essentially the other nations are holding Germany hostage to prevent then from leaving and destroying the other nations. Honestly the damage to Germany would be far less then to everyone else and one way or another that system is going to crash. It was based on very bad economics.

A nations sovereignty and influence over it's economy is based on it's ability to elastically control it's monetary supply. A nations currency needs to be able to inflate or deflate as the country goes through different economic situations. Right now the central currency is preventing the weaker economies from inflating their own currency and stabilizing their situation. This situation proves that any nation who's using the Euro is no longer a sovereign nation and is now under the control the EU's central banking representatives.
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2016-05-23 11:13:09
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I will say it again in the clearest way I can think of:
Ruaumoko posted, using the words strong/weak and and defined them with a meaning by comparing certain countries.
Seha replied with those meanings in mind.
You came in with a meaning not contained by the base post.
So I quoted you to remind you of the meaning which the base post provided. (the per capita part)
I then went on how Ruaumoko's reasoning was wrong by using facts with his meanings in mind.

There was nothing more to it.

For the leaving EU part, It would have been nice if you had posted it in your first reply already. Going from your last reply there wasn't any need for a sarcastic answer directed at Seha when it doesn't even transmit your own opinion on top of it.

As for the US citizen part, it was you who brought it up with your "pass.". At least if my understanding of the English language is correct. I read it as 'I pass on that'.

Now to your definition of economical strength from your last post. You compared Italy and Spain to every country in the world, and if we do so, yes they rank quite high. We can ask however if that is useful and you most likely will agree that it is not.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-23 11:30:38
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Greens won in Austria, yay!
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By Quetzalcoatl.Eradius 2016-05-23 11:36:44
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Greens won in Austria, yay!

Not just my Austrian friends, but most of the EU pals I have are flipping out. Something about the mail-votes swinging abnormally and rigging? Seems their live update for votes was cut-off for the final hour too.

Are you Austrian perchance?
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