AGW Theory - Discussion

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AGW Theory - Discussion
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-11 21:20:03
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Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
We can curb and even eliminate our CO2, and when global warming still occurs, we can find the next thing to *** about.

People constantly overlook that we are still, in fact, in the middle of an Ice Age, and that the current temperatures are not typical for Earth. Especially considering that when it was receiving much less insolation early in its history, but was still hotter.

I've pointed this out many times over again, including providing nice graphs and pictures showing the earths average temperatures over very long periods of time and how the current situation isn't anything new or unique. I've included average CO2 measurements and how it actually trails, not leads, atmospheric temps by a hundred years or more. I've even included some pretty basic physics and thermodynamics that explains all this interaction and how it's pretty much impossible for CO2 to do what alarmists are saying it does. There simply isn't enough energy on the right bands without creating a magic "multiplier", which to this day still hasn't been experimentally proven.

Really high CO2, while being great for plants, isn't too great for us. Of course the number I'm talking about is an entire order of magnitude over what alarmists are thinking of. CO2 is perfectly safe up to about 2000ppm, in fact CO2 enriched atmosphere is frequently used by greenhouse growers and there is no ill health effects. It's not until you get to 4000~5000ppm that bad things start happening to us Oxygen dependent folks. We are a thousand years away from those kinds of numbers and to be perfectly honest, that time is so distant that extrapolating based on today's technology is pointless.

Of course alarmists don't want to hear that, it doesn't have the urgency they want to motivate people to give them more power and control. Seriously listening to them is strangely reminiscent of Chancellor Palpatine convincing the senate to grant him emergency powers to deal with the urgent crisis.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-11 21:39:22
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Holy... I just caught up on the thread and did Jassik really just try to use the debunked "Pacific Garbage Patch!"? Didn't I destroy that, with photos and research, in another thread? Yes there is a gyre that cause's trash thrown overboard to travel in a giant circle with some of it aggregating in a specific region. The particulate matter is very small and you could go swimming by and completely miss it. It's still not a good thing, but it's not this giant trash filled place with dudes rowing by in boats.

The whole Ocean PH thing is another one of those "created" problems. The Ocean's PH is not changing, to change the PH in a measurable way over a humans life time, something very very bad would have to happen to us surface dwellers. I'm talking meteor from space, global nuclear warfare, couple dozen volcano's exploding, type bad. Mass extinction event type bad. At which time we have much bigger issues to worry about then Ocean PH balance. What is happening is the PH balance of some places are changing. PH, like temperature, is a local as well as a global concept. Many beautiful places have experienced an abundance of tourist and other human related activity over the past hundred years. That activity has resulted in pollutants having an extreme local effect. This is the same problem we see with pollutant build up over a city, it generates some pretty bad local effects.

The couple driving their SUV in Indiana is not the cause of a coral reef bleaching. The locals, or those visiting, living in nearly third world conditions, dumping all sorts of nastiness into the local rivers, estuary's or directly into the ocean is the culprit. That crap tends to stick around and cause all sorts of hell to everything in a 200km range. Unlike most of the hot bags of air on this forum, I've actually volunteered for and participated in cleanup efforts out here in East / South East Asia and have seen what these people do to their environments.

First world carbon fueled technology is far better for the environment then how these locals live.

But yeah I've already explained the physics involved between a gas atmosphere and a large body of stratified liquid. Physics doesn't change based on ideology, unless your the Soviets then you can just makeup whatever you want and silence anyone who disagrees.
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By Jetackuu 2015-10-13 10:42:09
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It's highly likely it had water at some point, and thus probably at least microbial life too. But then everything went to ***.
When the fire nation attacked*
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-10-13 10:58:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Didn't I destroy that, with photos and research, in another thread?

yeah... all of the garbage is gone now because you posted about it... and everything is fine now /rainbow hand gesture


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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-10-13 14:19:48
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More like it really isn't much of a problem to begin with.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-10-13 15:48:22
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
We can curb and even eliminate our CO2, and when global warming still occurs, we can find the next thing to *** about.

People constantly overlook that we are still, in fact, in the middle of an Ice Age, and that the current temperatures are not typical for Earth. Especially considering that when it was receiving much less insolation early in its history, but was still hotter.

I've pointed this out many times over again, including providing nice graphs and pictures showing the earths average temperatures over very long periods of time and how the current situation isn't anything new or unique. I've included average CO2 measurements and how it actually trails, not leads, atmospheric temps by a hundred years or more. I've even included some pretty basic physics and thermodynamics that explains all this interaction and how it's pretty much impossible for CO2 to do what alarmists are saying it does. There simply isn't enough energy on the right bands without creating a magic "multiplier", which to this day still hasn't been experimentally proven.

Really high CO2, while being great for plants, isn't too great for us. Of course the number I'm talking about is an entire order of magnitude over what alarmists are thinking of. CO2 is perfectly safe up to about 2000ppm, in fact CO2 enriched atmosphere is frequently used by greenhouse growers and there is no ill health effects. It's not until you get to 4000~5000ppm that bad things start happening to us Oxygen dependent folks. We are a thousand years away from those kinds of numbers and to be perfectly honest, that time is so distant that extrapolating based on today's technology is pointless.

Of course alarmists don't want to hear that, it doesn't have the urgency they want to motivate people to give them more power and control. Seriously listening to them is strangely reminiscent of Chancellor Palpatine convincing the senate to grant him emergency powers to deal with the urgent crisis.

Are the effect detrimental to us around 1% and up? Isn't that 10,000 ppm?
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-10-13 15:50:36
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Complains about strawmen and then proceeds to use the exact same fallacy.

Cause climate change is totally about breathable air.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-13 20:50:19
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
We can curb and even eliminate our CO2, and when global warming still occurs, we can find the next thing to *** about.

People constantly overlook that we are still, in fact, in the middle of an Ice Age, and that the current temperatures are not typical for Earth. Especially considering that when it was receiving much less insolation early in its history, but was still hotter.

I've pointed this out many times over again, including providing nice graphs and pictures showing the earths average temperatures over very long periods of time and how the current situation isn't anything new or unique. I've included average CO2 measurements and how it actually trails, not leads, atmospheric temps by a hundred years or more. I've even included some pretty basic physics and thermodynamics that explains all this interaction and how it's pretty much impossible for CO2 to do what alarmists are saying it does. There simply isn't enough energy on the right bands without creating a magic "multiplier", which to this day still hasn't been experimentally proven.

Really high CO2, while being great for plants, isn't too great for us. Of course the number I'm talking about is an entire order of magnitude over what alarmists are thinking of. CO2 is perfectly safe up to about 2000ppm, in fact CO2 enriched atmosphere is frequently used by greenhouse growers and there is no ill health effects. It's not until you get to 4000~5000ppm that bad things start happening to us Oxygen dependent folks. We are a thousand years away from those kinds of numbers and to be perfectly honest, that time is so distant that extrapolating based on today's technology is pointless.

Of course alarmists don't want to hear that, it doesn't have the urgency they want to motivate people to give them more power and control. Seriously listening to them is strangely reminiscent of Chancellor Palpatine convincing the senate to grant him emergency powers to deal with the urgent crisis.

Are the effect detrimental to us around 1% and up? Isn't that 10,000 ppm?

There are other effects that start to happen, not just CO2 poisoning. Most plant life functions better at the 2000~4000 range, some even as high as 5000, but once you start getting there some very important bacteria starts suffering. We can still live over that amount but things will definitely be changing in our ecology. For the most part you can view ~4000ppm as the "red line" you don't want to cross. That number is about 10x higher then AGW people want it to be so you don't hear much about it.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-10-13 21:05:19
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Other reasons you don't hear climate scientists discuss CO2 toxicity:

  • It has nothing to do with anything.

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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-10-13 21:26:34
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
More like it really isn't much of a problem to begin with.

people that believe pollution is no big deal have just never been to ohio before...

I grew up within smelling distance of an aluminum siding factory and we went on family outings to go see the cuyahoga river when it caught on fire...
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-13 21:50:05
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
More like it really isn't much of a problem to begin with.

people that believe pollution is no big deal have just never been to ohio before...

I grew up within smelling distance of an aluminum siding factory and we went on family outings to go see the cuyahoga river when it caught on fire...

This is the definition of a strawman.

Neither Nausi nor myself is saying pollution isn't a bad thing, I event went so far as to state I'm very much against pollution as an avid environmental conservationist.

The "pacific garbage patch" was a political platform that the environmental activists tried to use to shock people into supporting their agenda. They used photo's from Manila harbor after a hurricane and falsely attributed them to some giant floating garbage island in the center of the Pacific. Magazines who had no journalistic integrity then published articles overstating how much there actually was and made it seem like this huge environmental calamity for extra shock value.

In reality it's a bunch of floating plastic particles that were left over from international boats dumping their trash into the ocean as they traveled. Because it's international waters there are no binding laws governing the disposal of waste and unscrupulous boat captains / owners do this to lower their costs. It has absolutely nothing to do with plastic bags sold in California, Washington, New York, Boston, London or Tokoyo.

What I don't like is the blatant attempts by yourself and others of your ilk to manipulate people's emotions using false pretenses and often outright lies in order to get them to support your agenda. Doing this is morally and ethically wrong, yet you do it anyway and then call foul when your opponents do it. It's even more reprehensible when you use other people's suffering to sell your scheme while you yourself won't get involved or volunteer your own time / money to solve the problem.

You want to be concerned about floating plastic particles in the Pacific Ocean and it's effect on the local biosphere, then get involved in efforts to clean up that specific problem. Don't try to use it as a *** reason to sell everyone else on a plan to give you billions of USD for something completely unrelated. Your concerned about a city's smog levels, then get behind a program to manage or reduce the carbon particle matter (not CO2 btw) in the exhaust of local machines. CO2 doesn't cause smog by the way, that's inappropriately filtered carbon ash, another myth being pushed by the environmental activists.

Your concerned about chemicals being dumped into a local river or making it's way into a critical estuary, then get behind a program to manage or reduce it in that area. It's already illegal as hell to do this, but some unscrupulous business owners still try to get away with it. If your concerned about consumer pollution, things like cans / bottles / paper bags / ect.., then volunteer your time and go out on the weekends to clean it up and push for a greater awareness in that local area.

Pollution and environmental management is by and far a local issue to deal with and the best thing you can do is to get involved in local programs. Not try to convince everyone to get a few billion USD to your favorite politician or organization so they can steal from it and give it to their friends. The more I got involved with conservation the more I learned to loath starbucks environmentalists.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-10-13 22:02:46
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Asura.Saevel said: »
In reality it's a bunch of floating plastic particles that were left over from international boats dumping their trash into the ocean as they traveled.
Unsubstantiated, made-up dribble. Such an easy universe he lives in where potential problems can be effortlessly waved off with a simple imaginary fact.

No one knows enough about the garbage patches to make determinate conclusions yet the talking points of it being another liberal conspiracy hoax have been issued. Evidence is irrelevant already.
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 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-10-14 00:34:07
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Asura.Saevel said: »
emotions
Why do you keep bringing this up? Who here has been getting emotional? Unless eyerolling counts as an emotion.

Now, the problem with just about all of your arguments is that for them to be substantiated, you'd have to ignore just about everything in the field of Earth Sciences. Considering you think that pollution and environmental management are just local issues, and that you dismiss everyone short of a few random website dudes as frauds, it's pretty obvious you're either completely uneducated and guessing, or just downright delusional about it. Oh, and feel free to point out those people getting billions of government dollars that seem to get you... emotional.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-14 01:15:29
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Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
emotions
Why do you keep bringing this up? Who here has been getting emotional? Unless eyerolling counts as an emotion.

Now, the problem with just about all of your arguments is that for them to be substantiated, you'd have to ignore just about everything in the field of Earth Sciences. Considering you think that pollution and environmental management are just local issues, and that you dismiss everyone short of a few random website dudes as frauds, it's pretty obvious you're either completely uneducated and guessing, or just downright delusional about it. Oh, and feel free to point out those people getting billions of government dollars that seem to get you... emotional.


This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Rather then attack the argument, your attacking me. Further instead of using metrics or some rational discussion, you use emotionally charged language. An emotional argument is one that appeals to the emotions of the observers in order to make them feel good / bad according to the arguers argument rather then rationally providing evidence to support / refute those same arguments. You've also frequently resorted to twisting and distorting an argument deliberately for the purpose of then emotionally attacking it, which in and of itself is intellectually dishonest.

I know I won't change the minds of any true believers, the best I could do is provide enough information that any observing skeptics are better armed, and any fence sitters have more information to form their opinion around.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-10-14 07:46:04
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Saevel, have you ever seen the pacific garbage patch in person?
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-10-14 08:26:23
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He personally cleaned the entire coast from Oregon to San Diego!
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-10-14 08:32:29
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I haven't been but I happen to know for a fact that the garbage patch is made up entirely of plastic bean bag chair beads and the caps of orange Fanta bottles. But don't call me out on this as you're just getting emotional, good sir.
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 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-10-14 08:36:49
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Asura.Saevel said: »
This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Rather then attack the argument, your attacking me. Further instead of using metrics or some rational discussion, you use emotionally charged language. An emotional argument is one that appeals to the emotions of the observers in order to make them feel good / bad according to the arguers argument rather then rationally providing evidence to support / refute those same arguments. You've also frequently resorted to twisting and distorting an argument deliberately for the purpose of then emotionally attacking it, which in and of itself is intellectually dishonest.

I know I won't change the minds of any true believers, the best I could do is provide enough information that any observing skeptics are better armed, and any fence sitters have more information to form their opinion around.
Most of your posts in this thread have been large unfocused rants where the center of your arguments are around the "liberal agenda" and "scams" associated with acknowledging climate change. Where is this coming from? Aside from a few fringe website links, you've just been using "it's all ***" in lieu of evidence. Arguing that it's a liberal scam is pretty silly too; there are countless conservatives who acknowledge climate change.

I'm serious when I ask, and I don't mean this as a means of devaluing your education or anything, but what is the extent of your environmental scientific education? College? Self-tutelage at a library? Because you're coming off as someone who's whole frame of reference was born from Facebook links.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-10-14 08:37:07
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Saevel, have you ever seen the pacific garbage patch in person?

Everyone should go see it. It looks rather nice.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-10-14 08:37:56
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Other reasons you don't hear climate scientists discuss CO2 toxicity:

  • It has nothing to do with anything.


References Venus' co2 make up as bad, but refuses to discuss why.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-10-14 08:41:32
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We're talking about the greenhouse effect of CO2 and its consequent effect on climate patterns which become more extreme as the atmosphere becomes warmer.

Not whether or not breathing CO2 is cool. That was a gigantic man made of straws.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-10-14 08:51:15
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Saevel, have you ever seen the pacific garbage patch in person?

Everyone should go see it. It looks rather nice.

I personally saw a river on fire....and I worked an entire summer cleaning up afterwards.

My point is... If neither saev nor nausi nor jassik has actually seen the Pacific garbage patch in personthen they are all blindly believing whatever they read / someone else's opinion of it and then they are asking us to accept/believe their second hand screwball account as evidence that their position is the correct one.

which is the definition of HERESAY

my comment is not about environmentalism, starbucks or otherwise, it's about talking straight out of your *** about an issue you haven't got the first clue about.

You want to "arm fence sitters with knowledge about an issue?" Here is a good place to start Stop pulling it out of your butts.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-10-14 08:53:49
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I've never seen the Pyramids of Giza either, should I assume that their existence is hearsay?
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-10-14 08:54:54
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They are secret alien antennas.
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By Aeyela 2015-10-14 08:55:35
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I've never seen the Pyramids of Giza either, should I assume that their existence is hearsay?

lol
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-10-14 08:57:41
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
We're talking about the greenhouse effect of CO2 and its consequent effect on climate patterns which become more extreme as the atmosphere becomes warmer.

Not whether or not breathing CO2 is cool. That was a gigantic man made of straws.

Right it has very little (inconsequential) impact on the climate in our current world, it will be far more dangerous when it starts becoming poisonous in a 1000 years.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-10-14 09:04:54
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
They are secret alien antennas.

They're actually built on an energy vortex. The pyramids themselves act as a funnel of energy, which allows them to serve as portals. Lrn2science.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-14 09:16:29
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
We're talking about the greenhouse effect of CO2 and its consequent effect on climate patterns which become more extreme as the atmosphere becomes warmer.

Not whether or not breathing CO2 is cool. That was a gigantic man made of straws.


That part has never been proven, either in a lab or through mathematics. All past models have failed to predict present outcomes, and all of them fail to predict both the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warming Period. It's, quite literally, magic pixie dust. It's something that's sprinkled onto CO2 to make it about 5~10x more potent then it already is.

Questioning the validity of this magic pixie dust has become heresy.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-10-14 09:19:18
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What are you talking about? Atmosphere gets warmer, energy increase and more dramatic weather effects happen.

It's hard to predict, but the fact that it happens is ascertained.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-10-14 09:21:35
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I've never seen the Pyramids of Giza either, should I assume that their existence is hearsay?

It's one of those emotional arguments designed to put people on the defensive by shifting the burden of evidence. Regardless of how you answer they will just keep moving the goalposts or altering the tone / context as best suits to discredit the individual. The only winning move is to not play.
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