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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-30 19:54:26
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Jassik said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
An SSD is a must have part nowadays. After being used to them for so long now, every time I use a system without one, even a nice 10k scsi2 ultra wide HD, the performance is terribly noticeable.

SAS is pretty darn fast. Not quite SSD level, but hardly noticeable.

SAS is just a protocol for the HBA to talk with the target disk, it's neither faster nor slower then anything else. 10K and 15K disks tend to be SAS or FC which is why that protocol is associated with "Fast" but they also come in 7200RPM and bulk 5400RPM flavors, the last of which is frequently used when you need ridiculously large amounts of on-line storage and the access speed isn't important. SSD is a storage technology and is the evolution of NVRAM flash storage into the desktop space. You can have SATA connected SSD, SAS connected SSD (enterprise storage mostly), FC connected SSD, and the newest protcol is NVMe which does away with the disk level abstraction entirely and treats the SSD like a PCI express device.

SATA and SAS are virtually identical and electronically compatible but with SAS having some extra features that are useful for when lots of disks are connected to a single HBA. You can even connect SAS and SATA disk to the same controller using the same ports, assuming you have the proper cables / adapters and the HBA speaks both languages, which most professional ones do. Under my work desk I have an older unused Dell Precision with an on board SAS HBA that has SATA and SAS disks connected to it. I had to use an adapter block to connect the SAS disks to the SATA cables though. It's one of my "screw around and blow stuff up" box's.

Anyhow don't confuse a communication protocol with a storage technology as they are radically different things. You could, in theory, use an older ATA/133 protocol (IDE) to communicate with a SSD, though it would silly as the protocol would bottleneck the SSD and lacks the features required to optimally utilize the newer technology present in SSD's. You could also, technically speaking, use NVMe to communicate with a 5400RPM HDD, though again it would silly to do so.
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By Jassik 2015-11-30 20:19:06
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I'm well aware of what SAS is. I said it challenges the accepted ideas about storage media, which it most certainly does.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-30 20:37:52
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Jassik said: »
I'm well aware of what SAS is. I said it challenges the accepted ideas about storage media, which it most certainly does.

Umm no you didn't

Quote:
SAS is pretty darn fast. Not quite SSD level, but hardly noticeable.

That's pretty clear and convincing evidence of that.

SAS is just the SCSI protocol tunneled over a serial link with a few additional options added to it. It doesn't change anything storage related. You still have the same HBA's, links, storage processors and architecture. It's just easier and cheaper to connect multiple disks and there isn't the risk of a malfunctioning disk in the middle causing corruption across the whole bus. SAS is neither innately faster nor slower then any other disk protocol. Because it's newer it supports newer technologies and it's those technologies that are faster not the protocol being used.

Now if you want to speak about changing storage media, we can speak about NVMe which actually does change things by doing away entirely with the disk abstraction layer requiring a storage controller. NVMe allows a SSD's host controller to interface directly with a systems PCI express bus and not require a HBA to abstract the volume to the BIOS or OS. It enables an order of magnitude performance increase by enabling DMA directly between the CPU and the storage volume, which is pretty insane.

Anyhow this is way outside the scope of this threads topic. Just don't spread confusion with misuse of terminology.
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-11-30 20:44:54
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Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Last note: The OS is kinda expensive getting the OEM version at that price is not worth it... just get the none OEM version.

are there non oem disks of 10 x64 out there? I havnt found any so far
 
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 Ragnarok.Rezeak
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By Ragnarok.Rezeak 2015-11-30 21:15:06
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Last note: The OS is kinda expensive getting the OEM version at that price is not worth it... just get the none OEM version.

are there non oem disks of 10 x64 out there? I havnt found any so far

My bad, I thought you could get full retail version for $99 cause pcpartpicker didn't list them as OEM until you picked em, that seem fine then.

Off-topic: I use a SSHD it's pretty interesting with fallout 4 for example my first load screen = 1min - 1min 30 then will reduce to 15-40 sec even if I exit the game entirely and restart.
On Black Ops 3 I noticed that my friends have to wait 30-40 secs to return to the lobby were as I'm back there in 10 secs.

Shame they aren't any real tests out there for SSHDs outside of OS boot up.
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By Jassik 2015-11-30 21:38:39
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Last note: The OS is kinda expensive getting the OEM version at that price is not worth it... just get the none OEM version.

are there non oem disks of 10 x64 out there? I havnt found any so far

I don't think I've ever seen a physical media for home 10. I'll see if I have an installer that isn't strictly EDU/ENT. If you really think you need a physical media, you can use the MS download to create an install disk. Not sure if you can just burn the ISO without having a bootable media unless you use a program.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-30 21:44:41
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Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Odin.Godofgods said: »
Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Last note: The OS is kinda expensive getting the OEM version at that price is not worth it... just get the none OEM version.

are there non oem disks of 10 x64 out there? I havnt found any so far

My bad, I thought you could get full retail version for $99 cause pcpartpicker didn't list them as OEM until you picked em, that seem fine then.

Off-topic: I use a SSHD it's pretty interesting with fallout 4 for example my first load screen = 1min - 1min 30 then will reduce to 15-40 sec even if I exit the game entirely and restart.
On Black Ops 3 I noticed that my friends have to wait 30-40 secs to return to the lobby were as I'm back there in 10 secs.

Shame they aren't any real tests out there for SSHDs outside of OS boot up.

Over at Toms they've done some testing on them and compared to HDD / SSD's. Hybrid disks are interesting, the first generation sucked hard core due to the algorithms not really being good at telling what to do and not to do. Later versions got a lot better and some of the newer ones come with management programs that let you specify certain files to try to always keep in the flash partition. Generally they are regarded as not worth the money as most can just get separate SSD and HDDs for their systems. They do have some use in small form factor / kiosk type devices where there might not be sufficient room for two separate disks.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-12-01 07:38:06
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This isn't the place to call each other out or insult each other, take it to PM. >.>
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 Ragnarok.Rezeak
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By Ragnarok.Rezeak 2015-12-01 08:01:31
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I dunno SSHD give a solid middle ground your paying like +£20 for noticeable faster load times in games.

SSD build isn't worth the money (for me) I'm looking at say 500gb SSD and 500gb HHD to be happy which is £150 or +£100 vs 1tb SSHD.

I know I'm talking purely in gaming context and a lot use SSD for OS only and a few select programs and these things for me are fast enough for me with Windows 10.
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-01 08:12:48
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Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
Last note: The OS is kinda expensive getting the OEM version at that price is not worth it... just get the none OEM version. You can find OEM licenses online for like $20-40 (remember you can upgrade 7/8/8.1 to 10 for free) but it's kinda of a grey area if it is legal if your not sure go for the retail version of 10 none OEM.

No, you can use the OEM version, you're just required to give yourself support. I'd recommend not getting the home version, and spring for pro.

can just get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Professional-System-Builder-Packaging/dp/B00H09BOXQ

then "upgrade" to 10 (if you really want it, I wouldn't recommend it for you, personally) then you can use the M$ provided tool to make 10 media.

It's fully legal/licensed.
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 Asura.Ninjaface
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 08:14:41
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Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
I know I'm talking purely in gaming context
Honestly, with my SSD, I only notice faster load times, and in some games i don't even notice that. I get about a full minute of loading or more basically any time I fast travel or leave a building into the commonwealth in fallout 4, for example.
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-01 08:15:51
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Also, SSD are dirt cheap, and there's no reason to not get one if your budget is 4 digits. Get a second drive for storage if needed.
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 Asura.Ninjaface
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 08:16:32
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Jetackuu said: »
Also, SSD are dirt cheap, and there's no reason to not get one if your budget is 4 digits. Get a second drive for storage if needed.
This. my budget wasn't even 4 digits and SSDs were so cheap that I couldn't justify not getting one.
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-01 08:17:08
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Asura.Ninjaface said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Also, SSD are dirt cheap, and there's no reason to not get one if your budget is 4 digits. Get a second drive for storage if needed.
This. my budget wasn't even 4 digits and SSDs were so cheap that I couldn't justify not getting one.

Hell I have 2 256gb stuffed in a box in raid1 just for the lulz., and another that I'm not even using!
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-12-01 08:33:48
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Jetackuu said: »
can just get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Professional-System-Builder-Packaging/dp/B00H09BOXQ

then "upgrade" to 10 (if you really want it, I wouldn't recommend it for you, personally)

why wouldnt you?
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-01 08:35:58
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Jetackuu said: »
can just get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Professional-System-Builder-Packaging/dp/B00H09BOXQ

then "upgrade" to 10 (if you really want it, I wouldn't recommend it for you, personally)

why wouldnt you?

I may be projecting myself a bit, but I just don't see you enjoying 10.
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 08:40:54
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Jetackuu said: »
enjoying 10.
If you're used to 7, 10 is an easy transition. If you're used to 8, IDK what to say because I never used it since I liked 7 so much.
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-12-01 08:44:28
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If the US is anything like the UK you can just download an ISO of Win 10, it'll let you skip putting in the license and you can just buy a Win 10 license from the Microsoft Store.

I thought I might have been able to re-use my Win 10 license from my old PC so I tried to download an ISO and reuse my license, didn't work so I just bought one from within Windows.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-12-01 08:45:31
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Asura.Ninjaface said: »
Jetackuu said: »
enjoying 10.
If you're used to 7, 10 is an easy transition. If you're used to 8, IDK what to say because I never used it since I liked 7 so much.

such an optimist... try xp
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 Asura.Ninjaface
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 08:47:48
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
xp
7 is a lot like XP. XP is what I had when I moved to 7.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-12-01 08:49:28
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Jetackuu said: »
I may be projecting myself a bit, but I just don't see you enjoying 10.
speaking of xp. That was the reason i was considering win10. After being on something without any more support for a while now, figured that one would last longer'
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 08:56:41
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
support
this is the key. you want to shore up your vulnerabilities as best you can, and without support from the developer you're not getting that. It doesn't really matter what OS you ultimately pick, as long as it is still getting security updates.
 
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-12-01 09:12:45
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i went last night aand put everything into the cart to see what its total would be. Unfortunately all those 15% up to $15 deals from superbliz wernt as good as pcpartpicker made it seem. It only applies to one item per order not each item. could do separate orders on each item but im sure the extra shipping charges would make that a waste. Altho rendered mute when i checked and all but 2 items were fully out of stock. So in the end, newegg had best deal or within best deals (to around $5) then the rest. All but one item i think. But with shipping charges it would have been the same, so why bother.

Added 1-yr replacement on items that offered it just in case. Added an extra set of two ram sticks (total 4x8gb) and added several fans. Which came to about 1450-1500 in the end /grin. And that was with win10. win7 would be another $40.
I didnt put the order through yet but i wanted to see. And this morning i checked back and prices were pretty much the same. Tho they only had a few fans left so they took a few out of my cart.
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By Asura.Ninjaface 2015-12-01 09:14:02
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
. It only applies to one item per order not each item.
When I saw that was how it worked i just got everything from Newegg and amazon and used the coupon on win 10.
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-01 09:23:47
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Jetackuu said: »
I may be projecting myself a bit, but I just don't see you enjoying 10.
speaking of xp. That was the reason i was considering win10. After being on something without any more support for a while now, figured that one would last longer'

Like I said, get 7, if you decide you want to use 10 you can "upgrade" if you don't like how that goes, you can always still use 7.

edit: and get 7 pro, not home. That way if you do use 10, it will be 10 pro, cuz 10 home sucks.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-12-01 09:35:29
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Ragnarok.Rezeak said: »
I dunno SSHD give a solid middle ground your paying like +£20 for noticeable faster load times in games.

SSD build isn't worth the money (for me) I'm looking at say 500gb SSD and 500gb HHD to be happy which is £150 or +£100 vs 1tb SSHD.

I know I'm talking purely in gaming context and a lot use SSD for OS only and a few select programs and these things for me are fast enough for me with Windows 10.

Like I said Toms did a full review on this and Hybrids really don't provide you with much benefit over a regular HDD. Your system memory is what's caching the games data and having the largest effect on performance. SSD's are useful for their first load times, random seek and insane I/O performance.

I'm using a older Samsung 830 256GB in my main system with two 1TB WD Black's in a RAID0 as my data drive. Even with the increased I/O speed of a stripped RAID the 830 leaves it in the dust. What I do is load important programs and MMO's onto the 830 and leave the rest of my Steam stuff and scratch space on the RAID0 array. Also have a 2TB 5400RPM WD Green acting as a backup drive for everything, just in case sometimes breaks (I really recommend everyone have a reliable slow spinning backup disk they use for frequent backups).

A 256GB Samsung 850 Evo costs a whopping $80 USD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147372&cm_re=Samsung_850_evo-_-20-147-372-_-Product

The increased system response time and performance is so noticeable and the price so low that there is absolutely no reason not to get one.
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-12-01 09:41:30
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im definitely grateful for all the help and advise, but i do feel obligated to point out that SSD's debate has been going on since page 1. And other then the first post since the last necro (which was a kit that simply didnt include it) each set has had a ssd in it.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-12-01 09:55:54
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Hell lets not stop with plain ole regular SATA SSD's, lets go all out.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147466

Samsung 950 Pro 256GB NVMe SSD $200 USD.

Over 400% faster then the Samsung 850 Evo this thing is starting to approach raw DRAM bandwidth at 2.2 GBps (bytes not bits). When you absolutely, positively need to kill every *** in the room have your data ready, accept no substitute.
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